TJ
jacen killed mara with his 3rd hand. if u want proof that the star wars universe if f'd, look no further.
😐
TJ
Luke struggled with Gaalen?
Yes, but not in their duel.
TJ
What book did you read?
Backlash.
TJ
Gaalen was barely surviving Luke's attack.
DS
The book makes it clear that Luke was toying with Gaalen.
I wasn't referring to the duel. If I remember correctly, Gaalan managed to resist Skywalker's attempt to telekinetically hold his shuttle in place as he escaped.
A quick peek at Wookieepedia seems to corroborate this finding:
Viun Gaalan, Wookieepedia
As Khai returned to the scene to aid the Sith, Gaalan capitalized on a moment of Skywalker's distraction to retreat to the safety of his shuttle. He immediately closed the hatch and sped away while using the Force to telekinetically counter and nullify Skywalker's Force grip on the shuttle.
DS
I'm trying to find any implication in inferno that a "fully prepared caedus" would have changed the scenario. I can't find it.
Look to the passage where it mentions that Luke caught Caedus by surprise. And the operative word is might.
True, about Galaan countering Luke on the TK, i'll be honest, my first thought on reading it was: He is trying to hold a space shuttle to the ground with TK? the fact that he thought he could do it at all (before being countered by Galaan,) was actually impressive.
And yes, Have you seen my description about the fight between Mara and Jacen? Its actually astounding. jacen is described as holding off Mara's lightsaber with one hand, and her dagger with the other, then it says "With his other hand, Caedus reached for a dart."
Do you have that book? If so, read it, think about what his hands are doing at all times. If not, I can post the text.
TJ
True, about Galaan countering Luke on the TK, i'll be honest, my first thought on reading it was: He is trying to hold a space shuttle to the ground with TK? the fact that he thought he could do it at all (before being countered by Galaan,) was actually impressive.
...My first thought was "Since when do shuttles prove more problematic than black holes, dovin basals, and the like?"
Luke being "impressive" isn't in question here.
TJ
And yes, Have you seen my description about the fight between Mara and Jacen? Its actually astounding. jacen is described as holding off Mara's lightsaber with one hand, and her dagger with the other, then it says "With his other hand, Caedus reached for a dart."Do you have that book? If so, read it, think about what his hands are doing at all times. If not, I can post the text.
I believe you. I'm just not sure how it's relevant.
Saying the idea that we have to listen to canon anyway should be suspect. If that was the only mistake in the star wars mythos, so be it.
But think about it: the way we interpret canon, Caedus canonically had 3 hands. Without the 3rd hand, Caedus dies in a cave before he ever becomes a Sith. Basically, anything written after sacrifice is a mistake., should we have to respect ANY of it as canon?
Single-handedly, in my opinion, that passage destroyed our view of what is canon and what isn't. You can't take as gospel a narrative that is so obviously wrong.
And what is said about Luke in DN doesn't sound like TK. Granted, I'm as guilty as anyone as using it as such, but what it says is "He centered himself in the very heart of the force." and goes on to say that THAT made him immovable.
TJ
Saying the idea that we have to listen to canon anyway should be suspect.
A curious turn of events.
Weren't you the one who raked me over the coals for apparently rejecting George Lucas and his view of canon?
Spoiler:
...When it suited your agenda?
TJ
If that was the only mistake in the star wars mythos, so be it.
It's interesting how you frame the issue.
TJ
But think about it: the way we interpret canon, Caedus canonically had 3 hands. Without the 3rd hand, Caedus dies in a cave before he ever becomes a Sith. Basically, anything written after sacrifice is a mistake., should we have to respect ANY of it as canon?
...Or, more rationally, we can interpret it as the author and her editor -- fallible human beings -- made an error during the writing process. An easily remedied, corrected, and ignored error that in no way impacts the story or Caedus as a character.
TJ
Single-handedly, in my opinion, that passage destroyed our view of what is canon and what isn't. You can't take as gospel a narrative that is so obviously wrong.
Then it sounds like you've made an eloquent argument for ignoring the whole black hole and dovin basal feats since, based on his considerable number of subsequent demonstrations, he's seemingly incapable of performing them.
TJ
And what is said about Luke in DN doesn't sound like TK. Granted, I'm as guilty as anyone as using it as such, but what it says is "He centered himself in the very heart of the force."and goes on to say that THAT made him immovable.
Which goes back to some of my original caveats: that these feats are not applicable in single combat or are clearly limited in some fashion, which is contrary to what you espouse.
Gideon, i don't usually take a personal view of a subject. The other day I was arguing strict canonicity, but thinking about the Caedus thing taking out one of my favorite characters with a MISTAKE makes me angry, and I want to say screw the entire canonicity argument.
(And of course I use one intepretation of something one day, and another on another day, when it helps my agenda. That's kinda the point isn't it?) More fun than getting stuck not understanding what the other side is talking about anyway.
Frankly, i didn't really care where the discussion ended up the other day. Its rarely about winning and losing to me, so much as just talking about the possibilities. (keyword rarely there)
For instance, were I you the other day, i would have said: (since i was insisting on being so literal)
"It says the black hole couldn't move Luke. Well, currently, the black hole at the center of the galaxy is also trying to pull ME, and YOU into it, and the one in Luke's galaxy was trying to pull Jar-Jar into it, and it is unable to move us. Luke's feat means nothing since the distance from the black hole isn't mentioned."
I kept waiting for that argument, I wouldn't have been able to counter it very effectively, but honestly, i don't care that its posted. My opinion is that the book meant exactly what it sounded like : That he could resist a black hole, or manipulate one. Your opinion on the matter is different. I'm okay with that. So not really so much about manipulation to fit an agenda as a desire to look at all sides of it.
lol
TJ, you argued this point far too persistentlyaggressivelyhypocriticallypassionately for this to be anything other than a last ditch effort to save a sinking ship.
Try to throw in a third "I don't care" and someone will probably believe it.
But, let me guess: you don't care? 😂
Edit: Just in case this came off dickish, I hold nothing against you, TJ. You just seem to have a streak here recently of not conceding when you're clearly wrong and subscribing to some blatant double standards to swing the argument in your favor.
The whole "I don't care" thing both genuinely amused me and surprised me.
Gideon
This isn't quite the point. That Skywalker is a more powerful Force-user or telekinetic than Caedus isn't the point. As far as this particular instance is concerned, Inferno outright suggested that had Skywalker attacked a fully prepared Caedus, the result might have been different.
Revelation
Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing.
don't get me wrong: What I don't care about is what you think of it. EDIT:[in a way that will change my mind, i mean. I do like to hear another opinion. ] I read the books. I interpreted them. I'm satisfied with my intepretation. We could talk about it for years, and just like anything else in life, you likely aren't going to change the mind of a single person who has formed their own opinion on the subject.
That's how life works. People never change.
And oops, i was passionate about star wars. I was enjoying, and am still enjoying the thread. Ever think maybe its because I like Star Wars? What we "decide" isn't really all that important to me.
After all, I'm not the one with the well-known Sidoius>all agenda. : )
So no, its not that I don't care, I do care, and I have an opinion, I think I just don't like debate as much as you do. Some good points of both sides occurred to me while I was thinking about this: I tired of the one side,and am now looking at the other side. I don't choose the other side. I still think my original position is correct, I just see some legitimate counters for your argument that you haven't used, so i'm inserting them, for discussion, because its a good discussion.
Sometimes you focus too much on winning, Gideon. Its cool you like that, but you are being a tad narcissistic when you assume i'm the same way.
😐
TJ
After all, I'm not the one with the well-known Sidoius>all agenda. : )
TJ
Saying the idea that we have to listen to canon anyway should be suspect.
TJ
And of course I use one intepretation of something one day, and another on another day, when it helps my agenda. That's kinda the point isn't it?) More fun than getting stuck not understanding what the other side is talking about anyway.
😂
Your double standards, hypocrisy, and failure to address any of my actual points makes me think that the evidence speaks for itself. But just in case it doesn't,
Spoiler:
You have an agenda, and it's about as subtle as a nuclear holocaust.
TJ
Sometimes you focus too much on winning, Gideon. Its cool you like that, but you are being a tad narcissistic when you assume i'm the same way.
Well, that's just it. I'm not here to convince you: the facts will do that on their own or not at all. I'm here to discuss a film series that we all love and the Expanded Universe it has inspired. This is a debate in which conflicting opinions meet for both a greater understanding and, yes, supremacy.
Mine's just come out on top this time. It has nothing to do with narcissism; pretty much any debater who is honest with himself will tell you the exact same thing or they wouldn't argue otherwise.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐😂
Your double standards, hypocrisy, and failure to address any of my actual points makes me think that the evidence speaks for itself. But just in case it doesn't,
Spoiler:
You have an agenda, and it's about as subtle as a nuclear holocaust.
Well, that's just it. I'm not here to convince you: the facts will do that on their own or not at all.
Exactly, and the facts do get intepreted differently: Thus this forum.
I'm here to discuss a film series that we all love and the Expanded Universe it has inspired. This is a debate in which conflicting opinions meet for both a greater understanding and, yes, supremacy.
I just don't like the supremacy part. I guess I'm here for the rest of that phrase. I am a person who says the words "yeah, that could be true too," a lot in RL. and "Yeah, you have a good point."
Mine's just come out on top this time.
That's still your opinion though. I don't think there has been enough evidence to overrule that particular happening in the book. If you want to say it has no value in combat, [b]that I concede.(though all the sudden it occurs to me that he used in combat with Thul,thus this entire discussion. So apparently it does have some use in combat. He has shown exceptional TK in other combat, though not on that scale exactly, fine. So he only did it once.
This to me isn't enough evidence to say he can't do it again.
It has nothing to do with narcissism; pretty much any debater who is honest with himself will tell you the exact same thing or they wouldn't argue otherwise. [/B]
I didn't mean anything negative by saying you were narcissistic btw, its something i think everyone is a little bit of. and with that last point, you may be right.
It may make me a very poor debator then, that I can't stick to one side, but when I see that point for the other side, I like to post it as well.
?
...Not sticking to one side and being able to see a point for the other side does not make for a poor debater at all. I don't consider myself a poor debater and I've conceded many, many points over my time here. Hell, I've conceded points in the past couple of days.
And a concession is at least partially an admission that one sees the point of another.
Really, that has nothing to do with anything and that certainly isn't what I'm calling you out on here.
okay, what have you seen on this thread that you think i should concede exactly?
You talking about the hyperbole thing? I still think it is an opinion that it was one. I see your point, i just don't agree. "the heart of the force" makes it seem like it was one of those "one with the force" moments we see in star wars (jacen in unifying force, for example). Since it was the heart of the force, I think the narrative is literally true about how firmly Luke was attached to the deck.
I concede you make a good argument? Is that what you are looking for? I just don't agree with it.