Originally posted by FrothByte
You're right, we can't verify it for either party. We have no idea what kind of training they went through. So we go with what we know: FEATS. Rambo has shown fighting skill. Dutch hasn't. It's as simple as that. Just because I went to karate school doesn't mean I can kick ass in a street fight. Just because 2 people went to the same exact training doesn't mean they have similar skill.
Okay, so training does not count/exist because lack of feats? Do you not understand this concept? This isn't 'Feat Wars'; it's coming to a reasonable conclusion based on available evidence. Dutch may lack the amount of evidence, but there's nothing to suggest he is a pushover as you are implying, and the only people you've shown me Rambo can defeat I could probably beat up, so there's that.
Fact: Both are Vietnam-era peers, with similar training. This is not suddenly a non-issue because Dutch doesn't overwhelm a half dozen mooks of questionable value. It's still a valid piece of evidence. You can downplay this all you want, but it exists.
Goes both ways dude. You also can't show Dutch defeating, or even fighting against a skilled h2h fighter near Rambo's skill.
Okay, so stalemate. I rely on the additional information; if neither can be conclusively shown to be better, Dutch is bigger and stronger and has the reach.
Happy?
Lol. If you really want to start using real actor's physical attributes as a basis for their character's then we can also say that Rambo is definitely more skilled than Dutch because Sly is more skilled than Arnold.
This is unreal that you could come to this conclusion based off of what I said.
Let's keep this simple, since I don't want to lose you in your battle to ignore anything valid I might say:
Physically, Dutch and Rambo are identical to their actors, because of the super super obvious principle of "they are portrayed by their actors". For this reason alone, when considering physical attributes like their height, weight, eye color, etc. we consider the actors as valid because... they ARE them.
We do NOT arbitrarily assign knowledge, talents, or other values that are not strictly physical. In other words, we wouldn't say "Arnold is super smart, and therefore Dutch would outsmart Rambo" or "Sly is a knows boxing because he trained for Rocky film series".
This is not a complicated thought process.
You don't mountain climb in a fight the same way that you don't deadlift in a fight. But deadlifting shows your lifting strength in the same way that that mountain climbing feat showed Rambo's grip strength. And any grappling fighter will tell you that grip strength is a big advantage in a grapppling fight.
That's a valid point, but you didn't present it that way and you provided zero context. However, deadlifting is a facet of Arnold's superior strength, which is kind of the point. If someone is trying to batter me into paste or wrestle me into submission, their superior strength is probably going to be a factor, more than my iron tiger grip.
Yeah the pred was strong. It was also very slow. And Dutch was unable to showcase any of that h2h skill that you keep insisting he has. Rambo would have danced circles around that Pred. Probably would still lose in pure h2h, but at least he would have given it a better fight and utilized his speed and agility to land a couple of hits. Dutch was completely helpless against it.
Dutch knew after the Predator broke the log with its forearm that he wasn't going to win the fight, and his subsequent punch confirmed it. Dancing around like a fool, considering his fatigue and situation, would be pretty stupid. I just rewatched the fight. He didn't sit there like a tool. He was in disbelief at how strong the Pred was and then his face was being pummeled. End of melee.
On screen, Rambo is a crazy motherf***** who has a lot of feats to back up his "paper". Dutch is all titles.
If this is so obvious and you have so much proof, bring it here. I'll concede the moment you provide something viable. If you insist that Rambo could surpass Dutch in facing the Predator, I could easily say Dutch could manhandle the cops too. We seem to have equal proof in that regard.
Besides, if you trully believed that size and strength are such a big factor as long as both fighters have had similar training, well... have you seen the fight between Oscar Dela Hoya and Manny Pacquiao?
Neither of which is trained to kill the other by the same army? Because that's just so relevant.
Both have had similar training (as would be expected of any world class boxer) and Dela Hoya had a huge size and reach advantage. Still didn't stop Pacquiao from beating him up due to pure skill and speed.
Right, but in boxing the smaller fighter can get in close and ruin the reach advantage without being put in a sleeper hold and never waking up again. It's not quite the same situation. Rocky was the underdog and small fry in the fight against 6'3", 235 lbs Ivan Drago, and he did well once he got inside of the reach. That's boxing basics.
Army H2H is not boxing. It has different focuses, does not adhere to rules in real-world situations, and is meant to kill the other guy as soon as possible. So a little guy cannot just go into the reach of a bigger fighter and win using the magical speed of whatever. If Rambo is singled out for being an uber grappler, or is shown taking out anyone even remotely within his range, then I'll concede the point just to have had some evidence to satisfy things. I can link you to the Dutch fight, but you're not impressed so what difference does it make?
If you take two guys with similar training to kill people with H2H, and one is bigger, who is the favored fighter? The guy with more movies?
K.
Originally posted by Supra
Rambo Wrecks Dutch's Get to the Choppa
Go get 'em, cheerleader.
Originally posted by FrothByte
You're right, we can't verify it for either party. We have no idea what kind of training they went through. So we go with what we know: FEATS. Rambo has shown fighting skill. Dutch hasn't. It's as simple as that. Just because I went to karate school doesn't mean I can kick ass in a street fight. Just because 2 people went to the same exact training doesn't mean they have similar skill.Goes both ways dude. You also can't show Dutch defeating, or even fighting against a skilled h2h fighter near Rambo's skill.
Lol. If you really want to start using real actor's physical attributes as a basis for their character's then we can also say that Rambo is definitely more skilled than Dutch because Sly is more skilled than Arnold.
You don't mountain climb in a fight the same way that you don't deadlift in a fight. But deadlifting shows your lifting strength in the same way that that mountain climbing feat showed Rambo's grip strength. And any grappling fighter will tell you that grip strength is a big advantage in a grapppling fight. Two different kinds of strength, both just as important in a fight. so you can't simply say Dutch is "stronger" because of his truck lift and automatically assume that will grant him the win. I said it before and I'll say it again, lifting strength is not equal to combat strength.
Yeah the pred was strong. It was also very slow. And Dutch was unable to showcase any of that h2h skill that you keep insisting he has. Rambo would have danced circles around that Pred. Probably would still lose in pure h2h, but at least he would have given it a better fight and utilized his speed and agility to land a couple of hits. Dutch was completely helpless against it.
On screen, Rambo is a crazy motherf***** who has a lot of feats to back up his "paper". Dutch is all titles.
Besides, if you trully believed that size and strength are such a big factor as long as both fighters have had similar training, well... have you seen the fight between Oscar Dela Hoya and Manny Pacquiao?
Both have had similar training (as would be expected of any world class boxer) and Dela Hoya had a huge size and reach advantage. Still didn't stop Pacquiao from beating him up due to pure skill and speed.
Did you just use the Pac vs. Mayweather fight as any kind of reference for anything? This tells me you literally have no idea what you're talking about with this analogy. Oscar was WAY past his pime when he fought Pac.. while Pac was prime or close to prime. Plus you're also forgetting that not only was Oscar not prime.. he was FORCED via contract.. that he couldn't come in above the catch weight Roach and Pac had set. This carch weight was a weight Oscar hadn't seen in many years... He was weight drained just trying ot make the BS weight stipulation the Pac camp came up with. Not only that, but Oscar isn't big over Pac.. like Dutch is over Rambo.. Not even close to comparable. You were better of using a number of other fights I won't even mention.
Next, it seems some of you have never been in real life fights.. more times than not.. fight go to the ground or to a grappling phase of the fight. This is where arnolds strength would translate very well... If he got a hold of Rambo.. he would literally be able to ragdoll him all over the place and take the fight where he wants. Not saying it will be easy.. but this is exactly where strength can and does come into play in a fight.
Again, just reference the fight in Rambo 3... rambo foght a slower than Arnold guy.. who is a big bruising guy like you're trying to make dutch out to be. Rabmo was losing that fight until the grenade trick.. there are no grenades here. Point is, that guy was able to land blows on Rambo... yet some of the arguments I've been seeing is how rambo's speed and agility with me Dutch won't land... well that russian guy seems just fine landing blows and taking the fight to rambo and using his size to dominate.
Originally posted by Psychotron
Because he actually fights people h2h? Dutch didn't do shit in h2h, anything people say about his skills is pure speculation.
That premise doesn't support your conclusion though... We don't KNOW Rambo is better trained do we? Rambo being in more fights doesn't make him better trained. That's like me saying Dutch is better trained to take mini nuke explosions.. cause look he took one and rambo didn't... ummm okay... Absence of proof isn't proof.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That premise doesn't support your conclusion though... We don't KNOW Rambo is better trained do we? Rambo being in more fights doesn't make him better trained. That's like me saying Dutch is better trained to take mini nuke explosions.. cause look he took one and rambo didn't... ummm okay... Absence of proof isn't proof.
It's like this. We've seen Rambo fight so his skills are known. We have not seen Dutch fight so we don't know what he can do. It's possible that he's better than Rambo, but it's also possible that's he's far worse. And given their similar training, experience, hunting skills, and peak physical conditioning it's only logical to bet on the guy who we actually know is good.
Originally posted by Psychotron
It's like this. We've seen Rambo fight so his skills are known. We have not seen Dutch fight so we don't know what he can do. It's possible that he's better than Rambo, but it's also possible that's he's far worse. And given their similar training, experience, hunting skills, and peak physical conditioning it's only logical to bet on the guy who we actually know is good.
Which is why we need some H2H feats for Rambo that say he can contend with someone within his own expertise range. Getting the drop on some average joe cops who are trying to subdue him peacefully isn't a great showing, and if what KT is saying is correct, Rambo had a poor showing against a guy Dutch's approximate size, training unknown at this point.
We already established they have similar training. Dutch is bigger, more reach, etc. More feats = more win is making a quantity over quality style argument.
Originally posted by Lestov16
👆 @StealthMooseSaying Dutch is incapable of H2H because we didn't see it onscreen is comparable to saying Dutch is incapable of urination because we didn't see it onscreen.
That was actually going to be my next point. I mean, we don't see Dutch shave on screen. OMG HE MUST BE ALWAYS CLEAN SHAVEN!
Did you just use the Pac vs. Mayweather fight as any kind of reference for anything? This tells me you literally have no idea what you're talking about with this analogy. Oscar was WAY past his pime when he fought Pac.. while Pac was prime or close to prime. Plus you're also forgetting that not only was Oscar not prime.. he was FORCED via contract.. that he couldn't come in above the catch weight Roach and Pac had set. This carch weight was a weight Oscar hadn't seen in many years... He was weight drained just trying ot make the BS weight stipulation the Pac camp came up with. Not only that, but Oscar isn't big over Pac.. like Dutch is over Rambo.. Not even close to comparable. You were better of using a number of other fights I won't even mention.
Dela Hoya is only 5 yrs older than Pacquaio. At the time of that fight, Dela Hoya was like what, 34? Past his prime but not way past his prime like you're implying. And by the time fight night came about he had put on a lot more weight already.
But ok, if you don't like that example then you can go with Tim Sylvia vs. Randy Couture. Sylvia had a 7 inch height advantage, about 60 lbs of weight advantage and about 8 yrs age advantage. Didn't stop Couture from beating him through sheer skill. And then you have Tim Sylvia vs. Marius Pudzianowski. Marius who is a multi time strongman champion and weighs in at over 300 lbs. He outweighed Sylvia by 40 lbs and I don't think Sylvia can do half the strongman feats that Marius does. Guess what, Sylvia won, proving that strength isn't all that matters in a fight.
Next, it seems some of you have never been in real life fights.. more times than not.. fight go to the ground or to a grappling phase of the fight. This is where arnolds strength would translate very well... If he got a hold of Rambo.. he would literally be able to ragdoll him all over the place and take the fight where he wants. Not saying it will be easy.. but this is exactly where strength can and does come into play in a fight.
Lol. I think you're the one who's never been in a real life fight, or maybe you're mistaking real life fights for UFC fights. I've been in 3 fights and 2 brawls, and none of them ever went to the ground. Neither have most of the ones I've witnessed first hand. You wanna know why? Because the ground is a very bad place to be in a real fight. The ground is usually uneven with lots of obstacles in the way and is a good way to get stomped on. Grappling is very useful in a cage match with rules, but you try to grapple in the streets and nothing is protecting you from an eyepoke or a bite or a knee to the crotch or a stomp on the head. I'm not saying grappling isn't used in a street fight, but majority of the time fighters would rather finish it standing up.
Again, just reference the fight in Rambo 3... rambo foght a slower than Arnold guy.. who is a big bruising guy like you're trying to make dutch out to be. Rabmo was losing that fight until the grenade trick.. there are no grenades here. Point is, that guy was able to land blows on Rambo... yet some of the arguments I've been seeing is how rambo's speed and agility with me Dutch won't land... well that russian guy seems just fine landing blows and taking the fight to rambo and using his size to dominate.
Uhuh, the guy who got the jump on Rambo? That the one you're referring to? Are we assuming that Dutch will also get the jump on Rambo? Besides, that big "bruiser" guy at least showed he can fight. What has Dutch done?
I'm not saying Dutch has no training whatsoever or that he's just an average joe at fighting, but based on what we've seen (or not seen) he doesn't seem to employ any fighting techniques that I can see and seems to use brute force over speed/technique.
Let's be honest here. You only have 2 reasons why you're saying Dutch wins:
1. He's bigger, therefore he must be stronger
2. He's spec ops, therefore he must be as skilled a fighter as Rambo if not more so.... despite the fact that he never has shown such skills.
You know, 2 people can go through the same exact training and still not be as skilled as each other. That's just ridiculous.
So basically what all your reasoning boils down to is: assumption. You "assume" that Dutch is stronger and you "assume" that he's a good fighter.
But you know, that's your opinion and I can respect that. You want to place your bet on the fighter who "looks" good, that's fine. Personally, I'd prefer to put my bet on the fighter who's "shown" himself to be good.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is why we need some H2H feats for Rambo that say he can contend with someone within his own expertise range. Getting the drop on some average joe cops who are trying to subdue him peacefully isn't a great showing, and if what KT is saying is correct, Rambo had a poor showing against a guy Dutch's approximate size, training unknown at this point.We already established they have similar training. Dutch is bigger, more reach, etc. More feats = more win is making a quantity over quality style argument.
That was actually going to be my next point. I mean, we don't see Dutch shave on screen. OMG HE MUST BE ALWAYS CLEAN SHAVEN!
We already established they have similar training? Where have we established that? Did they come from the same training camp? Were they in the same military division? Rambo spent time fighting and living in Thailand (or was it Burma?) where he learned to stick fight. Did Dutch have the same training?
I agree that quantity over quality is a stupid argument. However in this case, both quantity and quality favor Rambo. He's the one with more feats and he's the one with better feats. If you can show me a single feat which shows Dutch's "quality" fighting skills then I'll change my mind.
As for that big russian guy that Rambo had problems with in Rambo 3, that guy got the jump on him. Are we assuming Dutch gets the jump on Rambo in this fight as well?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is why we need some H2H feats for Rambo that say he can contend with someone within his own expertise range. Getting the drop on some average joe cops who are trying to subdue him peacefully isn't a great showing, and if what KT is saying is correct, Rambo had a poor showing against a guy Dutch's approximate size, training unknown at this point.We already established they have similar training. Dutch is bigger, more reach, etc. More feats = more win is making a quantity over quality style argument.
That was actually going to be my next point. I mean, we don't see Dutch shave on screen. OMG HE MUST BE ALWAYS CLEAN SHAVEN!
This is absurd. You want the guy with some actual feats to prove he's as good as a guy without any? This is not how it works. You have to find something to prove that Dutch is as good as Rambo. Get serious.
And Dutch wasn't clean shaven btw.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Dela Hoya is only 5 yrs older than Pacquaio. At the time of that fight, Dela Hoya was like what, 34? Past his prime but not way past his prime like you're implying. And by the time fight night came about he had put on a lot more weight already.But ok, if you don't like that example then you can go with Tim Sylvia vs. Randy Couture. Sylvia had a 7 inch height advantage, about 60 lbs of weight advantage and about 8 yrs age advantage. Didn't stop Couture from beating him through sheer skill. And then you have Tim Sylvia vs. Marius Pudzianowski. Marius who is a multi time strongman champion and weighs in at over 300 lbs. He outweighed Sylvia by 40 lbs and I don't think Sylvia can do half the strongman feats that Marius does. Guess what, Sylvia won, proving that strength isn't all that matters in a fight.
Lol. I think you're the one who's never been in a real life fight, or maybe you're mistaking real life fights for UFC fights. I've been in 3 fights and 2 brawls, and none of them ever went to the ground. Neither have most of the ones I've witnessed first hand. You wanna know why? Because the ground is a very bad place to be in a real fight. The ground is usually uneven with lots of obstacles in the way and is a good way to get stomped on. Grappling is very useful in a cage match with rules, but you try to grapple in the streets and nothing is protecting you from an eyepoke or a bite or a knee to the crotch or a stomp on the head. I'm not saying grappling isn't used in a street fight, but majority of the time fighters would rather finish it standing up.
Uhuh, the guy who got the jump on Rambo? That the one you're referring to? Are we assuming that Dutch will also get the jump on Rambo? Besides, that big "bruiser" guy at least showed he can fight. What has Dutch done?
I'm not saying Dutch has no training whatsoever or that he's just an average joe at fighting, but based on what we've seen (or not seen) he doesn't seem to employ any fighting techniques that I can see and seems to use brute force over speed/technique.
Let's be honest here. You only have 2 reasons why you're saying Dutch wins:
1. He's bigger, therefore he must be stronger
2. He's spec ops, therefore he must be as skilled a fighter as Rambo if not more so.... despite the fact that he never has shown such skills.You know, 2 people can go through the same exact training and still not be as skilled as each other. That's just ridiculous.
So basically what all your reasoning boils down to is: assumption. You "assume" that Dutch is stronger and you "assume" that he's a good fighter.
But you know, that's your opinion and I can respect that. You want to place your bet on the fighter who "looks" good, that's fine. Personally, I'd prefer to put my bet on the fighter who's "shown" himself to be good.
The difference between 29 and 34 can be immesne... Pac was in his physical prime... Hoya wasn't. Further, Pac was growning into his body and moving up in weight as all the great fighters do.. that was what he was in the process of doing before he fought Hoya and when he fought him. Hoya on the otherhand had ALREADY done his moving up phase and by then a part time fighter just looking for big money fights.
Lastly, hoya WASN'T allowed to hydrate and get back some weight because the other part of the stip Roach and Pac made him sign was SAME DAY weigh-in to prevent him from putting on more points the night before. The whole thing was a shame and bs,.
You listed the Sylvia fight and I could go into more context of that fight.. but I won't.. I'll just have to say this one thing.. I could name 25 fights of people moving up to face bigger people and losing compared to ever ONE fight you could name where the little guy wins. If you want to get into a fight naming game.. you will lose and lose big. There is a reason for weight classes in combat sports..it's not a marketing ploy. Like the say goes.. when you have two equally or close to equally skilled fighters fighting and one is bigger than the other.. the bigger guy usually wins. A good big guy usually beat a good small guy... It's a saying for a reason. Which oddly enough.. is the case with this fight in question.
now I know you've never been in a real life fight... Many fights end up GRAPPLING is what I was saying.. Most fights are boxing matches... at one point or another.. somebody tries to get ahold of the other guy or take him down.. That is just how it goes the majority of the time. Even saying that isn't so.. tells me you haven't witnessed many fights nor been in many fights.
So now the big russian guy can fight just cause he fought Rambo.. yet has no other feats of note.. nor do we know his training... odd. Point is though, that he might have got the jump on him.. but Rambo was given space and time to recover and the big guy STILL was able to dominate Rambo with his size.. even when Rambo was given space. Why wouldn't dutch do the same thing?
I like how you say we ASSUME Dutch is stronger.. there is no assumption about that.. he IS stronger than Rambo.. In fact, using your logic.. he has the FEATSORZ to prove it and Rambo doesn't.. Remember the truck dead lift thing? What has rambo done that equals that. This is just using your logic. Forgetting that line of thought though... we clearly know Arnold is stronger than Sly.. this isn't an assumption it's a fact.
What we're are left with is simply.. A good big guy usually beats a good little guy.
There is a reason for weight classes in combat sports..it's not a marketing ploy. Like the say goes.. when you have two equally or close to equally skilled fighters fighting and one is bigger than the other.. the bigger guy usually wins. A good big guy usually beat a good small guy... It's a saying for a reason. Which oddly enough.. is the case with this fight in question.
And I don't disagree. A good big guy will almost always beat a good small guy. Except in this case, we don't really have any clue how good Dutch is. Actually we do, we know he's not great at ducking/dodging nor is he good at delivering proper punches or kicks. So unless you can prove that he's actually good, it will basically be a big guy vs. a good smaller guy (and Rambo isn't exactly small).
now I know you've never been in a real life fight... Many fights end up GRAPPLING is what I was saying.. Most fights are boxing matches... at one point or another.. somebody tries to get ahold of the other guy or take him down.. That is just how it goes the majority of the time. Even saying that isn't so.. tells me you haven't witnessed many fights nor been in many fights.
Uhuh, sure. Go ahead and kid yourself. You've probably seen a couple of schoolyard fights that end on the ground and you mistake that for real life fights. Next time you ever see a serious street fight, pay attention. Yes they can go to the ground and they can grapple, but majority of the time the fighters will stay at striking distance.
So now the big russian guy can fight just cause he fought Rambo.. yet has no other feats of note.. nor do we know his training... odd. Point is though, that he might have got the jump on him.. but Rambo was given space and time to recover and the big guy STILL was able to dominate Rambo with his size.. even when Rambo was given space. Why wouldn't dutch do the same thing?
Let me break down the fight for you. The russian guy got the drop on Rambo, beat him up a bit, but Rambo was able to reverse the fight due to his fighting skill and dominate. Then he got caught in a bear hug that squeezed his alread injured side (from the wound that he later cauterized) and was causing him to black out. Rambo isn't some invincible fighter, but everything he showed thus far is way better than anything Dutch has. That russian fighter was the only fighter that Rambo came close to losing against, and that's what makes him a decent fighter. Rambo has fought big opponents before (see Rambo 2) and didn't experience the same amount of difficulty.
Why wouldn't Dutch do the same? Because, like I keep repeating, you really don't know what Dutch is capable of. Just because he's big doens't mean he can do something.
I like how you say we ASSUME Dutch is stronger.. there is no assumption about that.. he IS stronger than Rambo.. In fact, using your logic.. he has the FEATSORZ to prove it and Rambo doesn't.. Remember the truck dead lift thing? What has rambo done that equals that.
Holding on to a cliff face using just his finger tips... different form of strength but equally if not more impressive. But hey, grip strength won't win Rambo the fight, just like lifting strength won't win Dutch the fight. In the end, lifting and grip strength does not equate to combat strength. If that was the case then Marius PUdzianowski should be overpowering opponents left and right.
What we're are left with is simply.. A good big guy usually beats a good little guy.
What you're left with basically is a big guy who has impressive muscles and with one impressive deadlift feat that automatically makes you assume he's very strong and that he's an awesome h2h fighter without any feats to back it up.
vs.
A smaller guy who has some decent strength feats of his own who proven himself to be a pretty good h2h fighter.
You want to go with size, that's fine. I'm going with skill. If Dutch had shown any decent h2h skills then I'd automatically go with the big guy (just like Thor vs. Bruce Wayne). But in this case, all Dutch has going for him is his bigger size, and it's not even such a big difference. No thank you.
Originally posted by Psychotron
This is absurd. You want the guy with some actual feats to prove he's as good as a guy without any? This is not how it works. You have to find something to prove that Dutch is as good as Rambo. Get serious.And Dutch wasn't clean shaven btw.
As Lestov said and I said, absence of tons of H2H on-screen doesn't mean he's a mook. Rambo's H2H 'feats' that have been brought to the table include the cops (which I reviewed and commented on) and the Russian, which I apparently had to go find for myself:
Rambo versus Russian Soldier Kourov.
Now, how recently have you seen this fight? Rambo does a good sleeper hold, and his grappling technique is good. I approve of this. But he is not winning by virtue of his lightning speed. The Russian gets a few blows and throws, etc. off on him, and furthermore Rambo won because he had a pit, some rope, and a grenade.
In other words, the fight ended because Rambo successfully used the environment to his advantage. Not because he bested the other guy in melee. If you ask me, Rambo was doing better with holds and strikes, but Kourov beat him up badly and so on.
After reviewing the new evidence, Rambo's grappling ability is strong and I think he better demonstrates his ability in this fight, pushing the odds more in his favor. So he wins say, 6-7 times out of 10. This is a huge push in his direction, but Kourov is comparably strong and a military trained opponent.
Originally posted by Psychotron
This is absurd. You want the guy with some actual feats to prove he's as good as a guy without any? This is not how it works. You have to find something to prove that Dutch is as good as Rambo. Get serious.And Dutch wasn't clean shaven btw.
1. Except that all I had been given was Rambo flailing at some average joe cops who weren't trying to murder him with army trained H2H. Also, people seem to think that being a highly trained Vietnam spec ops means people can beat you by virtue of beating up aforementioned mall cops. Or that by having a lot of movies and people just saying "HE WINS CUZ MOAR FEATS VERSUS NO FEATS" is a logical argument, when evidence exists that the "NO FEAT" guy has "training".
I reviewed new evidence, which I had to dig up myself because apparently you were too busy being awesome to provide it in defense of your own assertion. I changed my mind, because I'm not an unreasonable ass.
2. Dutch being clean shaven is a joke. Some people have no sense of humor.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As Lestov said and I said, absence of tons of H2H on-screen doesn't mean he's a mook. Rambo's H2H 'feats' that have been brought to the table include the cops (which I reviewed and commented on) and the Russian, which I apparently had to go find for myself:Rambo versus Russian Soldier Kourov.
Now, how recently have you seen this fight? Rambo does a good sleeper hold, and his grappling technique is good. I approve of this. But he is not winning by virtue of his lightning speed. The Russian gets a few blows and throws, etc. off on him, and furthermore Rambo won because he had a pit, some rope, and a grenade.
In other words, the fight ended because Rambo successfully used the environment to his advantage. Not because he bested the other guy in melee. If you ask me, Rambo was doing better with holds and strikes, but Kourov beat him up badly and so on.
After reviewing the new evidence, Rambo's grappling ability is strong and I think he better demonstrates his ability in this fight, pushing the odds more in his favor. So he wins say, 6-7 times out of 10. This is a huge push in his direction, but Kourov is comparably strong and a military trained opponent.
1. Except that all I had been given was Rambo flailing at some average joe cops who weren't trying to murder him with army trained H2H. Also, people seem to think that being a highly trained Vietnam spec ops means people can beat you by virtue of beating up aforementioned mall cops. Or that by having a lot of movies and people just saying "HE WINS CUZ MOAR FEATS VERSUS NO FEATS" is a logical argument, when evidence exists that the "NO FEAT" guy has "training".
I reviewed new evidence, which I had to dig up myself because apparently you were too busy being awesome to provide it in defense of your own assertion. I changed my mind, because I'm not an unreasonable ass.
2. Dutch being clean shaven is a joke. Some people have no sense of humor.
It's worth pointing out that Rambo was shot when he was fighting the Russian. He still did well. And those cops were beating him, that's why he snapped and beat the shit out of them. Like it or not, beating up mall cops is still a feat. Dutch doesn't even have that.
I like Dutch, I really do, and I know he's a badass, but until he has some solid h2h feats we can't really speculate on his fighting ability. If this was Rambo vs. Dutch in a jungle hunting match it would be far more equal and interesting imo.
I'm curious moosie... what grappling skills did he display? In the majority of the grappling portions of the fight he was tossed around? That isn't showing good grappling. Him getting on top of the guy and putting him in a sleeper hold.. again isn't good grappling at all.. it's a move we do messing around with friends as young kids with no training. Him grabbing the guys face and pulling at it to break or hold or gain the advantage.. again isn't a good grappling move.. it's a move out of desperation. Lastly, Rambo didn't even want to go h2h.. he tried to pull a knife out.. and was quickly disarmed for his troubles. That makes him look worse. Seeing this again and refreshing my memory further convinces me Dutch wins.. not the other way around.