Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Really.. how was he not shown to have it? SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM.. Show me the scene where Dutch couldn't fly a chopper or tank or show the narration where Dutch comments on ont having training in those areas.. Simple. Now support your claim.
Rambo was shown to have the training to both drive a tank and fly a helicopter, Dutch showed no such training.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Follow the discussion before interjecting your opinion. I never made ANY claim. Silent made the claim that Rambo was better trained since we saw him drive a tank and helicopter and dutch wasn't shown doing so. That doesn't prove his conclusion at all and that is the point I'm making. I'm waiting for the scene where dutch was unable to fly a chopper or tank and given the chance. Just like it would be idiotic for me to say Psychotron can't have sex.. well because.. I've never seen him have sex. Doesn' twork that way.. that doesn't prove my premise or conclusion. Absence of proof isn't proof.
It doesn't work that way. We've seen Rambo do those things, we haven't Dutch do them. These skills aren't something just everyone knows. This isn't like having sex, or taking a piss, or whatever. Operating these machines takes a lot of training, and we can't just assume Dutch can do these things, because he's a badass.
I never said he could or couldn't.. WHAT I AM SAYING is it was never shown that he couldn't. Period. What I'm also claiming is.. Dutch isn't a carpenter and thus probably wouldn't be trained in flying a chopper or tank... Dutch is a highly trained Special Operations member. He was a veteran of Nam and clear presented as one of the best of the best of the special forces. He was the commander of his unit which again implies being badass as one of the best of the best. Thus it's far more likely dutch has received training ni flying a chopper than a bus driver would. So me not wanting to exclude the possibility that he very well could be trained in such things is far more sound than some joe schmoe. In either case, my only piont is and has been... Dutch not being shown doing something doesn't mean he can't nor does it mean Rambo is better trained like suggested.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Rambo was shown to have the training to both drive a tank and fly a helicopter, Dutch showed no such training.
Dutch was trained by the same people (Green Berets) as Rambo was. Just because he didn't come into a situation that required those skills in the brief 2 hours we saw him doesn't mean he's incapable of doing. Characters have lives outside of what we see on screen. It's logical to assume Dutch would share Rambo's skillset since they were trained by the same unit.
Also, Rambo was only in the military for 10 years (1964-1974), two of which were spent in captivity. Dutch was in the military for 13 (1967-1980), and that's not including his merc work. Dutch not only has longer military experience, but more advanced skill, since he's trained in tactics not around during Rambo's time. Saying Dutch isn't trained in the things Rambo is simply because he didn't display during the brief 2 hours we saw him is utterly ridiculous. That's like saying Dutch is incapable of driving a station wagon just because we never saw his driver's silence.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Dutch was trained by the same people (Green Berets) as Rambo was. Just because he didn't come into a situation that required those skills in the brief 2 hours we saw him doesn't mean he's incapable of doing. Characters have lives outside of what we see on screen. It's logical to assume Dutch would share Rambo's skillset since they were trained by the same unit.
So basically, you're claiming that all Green Berets are trained in driving tanks and flying helicopters?
Originally posted by Lestov16
Dutch was trained by the same people (Green Berets) as Rambo was. Just because he didn't come into a situation that required those skills in the brief 2 hours we saw him doesn't mean he's incapable of doing. Characters have lives outside of what we see on screen. It's logical to assume Dutch would share Rambo's skillset since they were trained by the same unit.Also, Rambo was only in the military for 10 years (1964-1974), two of which were spent in captivity. Dutch was in the military for 13 (1967-1980), and that's not including his merc work. Dutch not only has longer military experience, but more advanced skill, since he's trained in tactics not around during Rambo's time. Saying Dutch isn't trained in the things Rambo is simply because he didn't display during the brief 2 hours we saw him is utterly ridiculous. That's like saying Dutch is incapable of driving a station wagon just because we never saw his driver's silence.
I may have forgotten, but where in Predator do they talk about Dutch's career?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I never said he could or couldn't.. WHAT I AM SAYING is it was never shown that he couldn't. Period. What I'm also claiming is.. Dutch isn't a carpenter and thus probably wouldn't be trained in flying a chopper or tank... Dutch is a highly trained Special Operations member. He was a veteran of Nam and clear presented as one of the best of the best of the special forces. He was the commander of his unit which again implies being badass as one of the best of the best. Thus it's far more likely dutch has received training ni flying a chopper than a bus driver would. So me not wanting to exclude the possibility that he very well could be trained in such things is far more sound than some joe schmoe. In either case, my only piont is and has been... Dutch not being shown doing something doesn't mean he can't nor does it mean Rambo is better trained like suggested.
Well, that's fine, but I don't see how Dutch MAYBE having the same training proves he's better than Rambo. All this comes down to is feats and Dutch doesn't have any h2h ones.
Originally posted by Psychotron
I may have forgotten, but where in Predator do they talk about Dutch's career?
It was stated in the novelization, which is official canon. Imp already stated EU can be used. Are you going to claim he was in the military for less time than Rambo? I'd like proof of that from the film please, by your same standards.
And what in that musical montage indicates that Rambo learned helicopter flying from the Green Berets rather than a fellow soldier in the field? And more importantly, how the phuck does that prove Dutch didn't learn H2H in the Green Berets? Is H2H also a skill they don't teach regular Green Berets? 😆
Originally posted by Lestov16
It was stated in the novelization, which is official canon. Imp already stated EU can be used. Are you going to claim he was in the military for less time than Rambo? I'd like proof of that from the film please, by your same standards.
Relax. I didn't say Dutch wasn't a Green Barret, I just didn't remember. Anyway, this really isn't about who can fly choppers or not. It's about a fist fight, and since Dutch doesn't have any h2h feats we can't honestly judge his abilities, and say he can beat Rambo.
You can't say that for certain. You act like because he has no H2H feats, he is incapable of H2H, even though he was a certifiable Green Beret, which means he definitely received H2H training. Looking at the facts (same Green Beret H2H training, longer military service, stronger, more durable) Dutch would be the conclusive victor. It's ridiculous to say he loses solely because he didn't find the circumstance to fight somebody onscreen for the brief 2 hours the audience sees him.
Saying Dutch loses purely because we didn't see him fight is like saying Tyler Durden could beat Hoot from Black Hawk Down, AK from Tears of the Sun, or Willard from Apocalypse Now in H2H purely because they never fought onscreen. It's a nonsense argument.
And again, how does Rambo beat Dutch when hits from the Predator couldn't keep Dutch (who was also hit with a plasma cannon which blew off another man's arm) down? And LOL if you say Rambo is better skilled in H2H than the Predator.
Originally posted by Lestov16
You can't say that for certain. You act like because he has no H2H feats, he is incapable of H2H, even though he was a certifiable Green Beret, which means he definitely received H2H training. Looking at the facts (same Green Beret H2H training, longer military service, stronger, more durable) Dutch would be the conclusive victor. It's ridiculous to say he loses solely because he didn't find the circumstance to fight somebody onscreen for the brief 2 hours the audience sees him.Saying Dutch loses purely because we didn't see him fight is like saying Tyler Durden could beat Hoot from Black Hawk Down, AK from Tears of the Sun, or Willard from Apocalypse Now in H2H purely because they never fought onscreen. It's a nonsense argument.
And again, how does Rambo beat Dutch when hits from the Predator couldn't keep Dutch (who was also hit with a plasma cannon which blew off another man's arm) down? And LOL if you say Rambo is better skilled in H2H than the Predator.
Dutch was wrecked by the Predator, it was toying with him. I don't know why you're bringing that up. Harrigan did better than him.
Has it ever occurred to you that not all soldiers are expert h2h fighters? Maybe Dutch was a great tactician and shooter, but a mediocre fighter? Like that Navy SEAL who tried his luck in MMA and did pretty poorly. Until he has some h2h feats we can't assume he'd beat Rambo.
Just because you received h2h training doesn't mean you excel at it. C'mon people, this is common sense. If a thousand soldiers all graduated from the same training camp, you don't expect them to all be exactly as good as each other. Some would be great, some would be better than others, and some would be just good enough to pass.
"Absense of proof is no proof" is a stupid argument. You say someone can do something, then prove it. You say Dutch is a good h2h fighter, then prove it.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Rambo isn't Bruce Lee. You act like he's some H2H god. Rambo isn't a "H2H specialist". Prove he's more skilled in H2H than your basic Green Beret.And again, how does he put down somebody a superhuman couldn't down?
No he isn't, but beating up 3-4 cops ganging up on him is a decent feat as well. Very few people can actually do that. Even trained fighters would have a hard time beating 3 people at the same time.
What do you mean the superhuman couldn't down Dutch? He was beating the crap out of him. It's not like Dutch is going to use some form of log trap on Rambo right?