Originally posted by Moscow
I an untrained person in anything technical or mechanical could discern that that was a camera the guy was holding.
But you aren't a valid comparison. Before you started watching you were told that none of these people had RPGs or AK-47 and were in fact a group of reporters. You're also in essentially zero danger of being killed if you make the wrong judgment.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and i'd say he knew a little more about fighting then you do, pal, cause he invented it! then he perfected it so no living being could best him in the ring of honor!
And then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. Then he hearded them onto a boat,
and then he beat the crap out of every single one.
Originally posted by Moscow
That whole response makes me sick to my stomach. Journalists and medics deserve the fullest support, and I an untrained person in anything technical or mechanical could discern that that was a camera the guy was holding. The pilots sharting bricks? Bologna. I watched the whole 20 minute video. They were doing standard operating procedure, it was just another day at work. This isn't some glorified decision-making like BS movies like Black Hawk Down show. This is real-life events here.Have the journalists know better? Have the civilians know better? This is their homeland we're destroying. Look at the city they're living in. It's a bombed-out ghetto from decades of war, abuse and sanctions. I absolutely hate the excuses given to the military when this kind of s*it happens.
Everyone has addressed what you said except the part about sharting himself: he really was, there. They are trained to be calm and handle situations, really well. With the van scenario, he was getting agitated, irritable, and snappy. Rewatch both firing periods and you'll see what I mean.
His thoughts are, "I've smoked a squad of RPG weilders and backup has arrive to gather their wounded and possibly finish the job. Any second, someone is going to pop out of the van and take me out with an SA7 or HN5."
Originally posted by One Free Man
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and i'd say he knew a little more about fighting then you do, pal, cause he invented it! then he perfected it so no living being could best him in the ring of honor!And then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. Then he hearded them onto a boat,
and then he beat the crap out of every single one.
I don't remember that in the Art of War, nor coincidentally in the Bible...
admittedly, I haven't read either...
i don't see how a military trained personal not be able to tell the difference between a camera and a RPG unless their are more modern RPG's that i haven't seen that now look like a camera and as small and compact.
the problem isn't accidentally killing civilians which that in itself is sad but it is covering it up which is the problem and it stops becoming death by friendly fire to now murder and obstruction of justice. i dont see the pilots being held accountable for murder but i would charge them with lack of professionalism and not following rules of engagement as well as the ground soldiers who are snickering and laughing making off comments... i would charge the officers who blatantly lied for murder, obstruction and various criminal acts that would be justifiable and a chargeable offense in a criminal case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FvRngn81Y&feature=related
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Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i don't see how a military trained personal not be able to tell the difference between a camera and a RPG unless their are more modern RPG's that i haven't seen that now look like a camera and as small and compact.
anti-tank missiles totally are, though it may only be in tripod mounted versions (Hamas is known to use some, the 9K115 Matis I mentioned before).
However, most personal SAM launchers could be mistaken for a camera if one didn't get a clear view. That people are in a potential combat situation might bias them to see something more threatening than normal.
An RPG, no, anyone who mistook an RPG for a camera is too blind to fly a helocopter
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
what rules of engagement did the pilots themselves break? they asked for authorization it fire; it was granted, they fired.
in order for a military person to use deadly force their has to be three steps which has to be met, which we were using during 2006 - 2008..
none of those camera men met them.
i cant recall them all and i cant find my old military card with them on it.
basically they have to be hostile and a a thread.. approaching you, screaming flailing etc etc...
have a weapon on their person and finally feel that they intent to do harm which means you can fire when he makes a hostile action like gripping his gun handle.... and about to aim it at you..
all those actions must be followed and if not when filing a report make sure you include them in it anyways...
also you must also take an active role when confronting a hostile person which is to tell them to stop, get on the ground, turn around basically make an effort to diffuse the situation b4 it gets out of hand.
also in that video it is plainly obvious that those pilots were in no immediate harm even if by the weird chance that it appeared those guys were carrying RPG's... not only did they continue to fire on the wounded when they were no longer a threat but they open fired on those who were giving aid which in itself are all military crimes even when given a command by ur chain of command.. i think a lot of ppl dont see how criminal and out of the norm that video really was. if you show it to a good marine Nco and officer i am sure they would tell you all the violations committed and how criminal it was.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
in order for a military person to use deadly force their has to be three steps which has to be met, which we were using during 2006 - 2008..none of those camera men met them.
i cant recall them all and i cant find my old military card with them on it.
basically they have to be hostile and a a thread.. approaching you, screaming flailing etc etc...
have a weapon on their person and finally feel that they intent to do harm which means you can fire when he makes a hostile action like gripping his gun handle.... and about to aim it at you..
all those actions must be followed and if not when filing a report make sure you include them in it anyways...
also you must also take an active role when confronting a hostile person which is to tell them to stop, get on the ground, turn around basically make an effort to diffuse the situation b4 it gets out of hand.
also in that video it is plainly obvious that those pilots were in no immediate harm even if by the weird chance that it appeared those guys were carrying RPG's... not only did they continue to fire on the wounded when they were no longer a threat but they open fired on those who were giving aid which in itself are all military crimes even when given a command by ur chain of command.. i think a lot of ppl dont see how criminal and out of the norm that video really was. if you show it to a good marine Nco and officer i am sure they would tell you all the violations committed and how criminal it was.
I did hear about that, today.
The justification was, "they are gathering weapons and wounded. ..."
And from there, the auth to fire was granted.
Originally posted by dadudemonyeah.. i know, feeling justified does not make once actions less suspect..
I did hear about that, today.The justification was, "they are gathering weapons and wounded. ..."
And from there, the auth to fire was granted.
one of the reasons we were given escalation of force cards were b/c Iraqi's unlike americans are allowed to carry wpns like AK47's. it was to make sure we didn't kill random non hostile ppl out of paranoia as soon as we saw a ak47 so even if they thought they were carrying ak47 it isnt reason to fire... the RPG is a different story i am still shaking my head at the incompetence of these men..
Fog of war is only an excuse for ground troops in immediate danger and lack of sleep not for a pilot that is well over a mile away watching on cam and gets his standard obligated rest and sleep prior to flying and after..
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
yeah.. i know, feeling justified does not make once actions less suspect..
That's almost unrelated to what I was talking about.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
one of the reasons we were given escalation of force cards were b/c Iraqi's unlike americans are allowed to carry wpns like AK47's. it was to make sure we didn't kill random non hostile ppl out of paranoia as soon as we saw a ak47 so even if they thought they were carrying ak47 it isnt reason to fire... the RPG is a different story i am still shaking my head at the incompetence of these men..
There isn't some sort of rule about "battle zones", though? I thought that in that area, (during that time) there was recently some fighting with insurgents and that heli was a follow up to that?
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
how is that a bad thing? what were they supposed to do? cry? sit there silently and let it all sink in so that they could come home with PTD?
Yes let us laugh at the inhumanities of war!
And the dialogue between the pilots was utterly disgusting.
One day all these ****ers will get whats coming to them when their capitalist regimes come crushing down upon them.
Speaking as someone who has fired SAM and various other weaponry, there is no way on this planet those camera´s could have been mistaken for SAM´s or RPG by any military person. Ok the possibility of them carrying AK 47 is present, but doesn´t everyone carry one in that country?
What would interest me is how far away the Apache was, and if those on the ground were aware of its presence. Because if they were, they wouldn´t have been daft enough to enter that theatre of slaughter.
Originally posted by Liberator
Does anyone know the exact context and reason why their was an Apache in the area? Making a routine mission/patrol?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought that in that area, (during that time) there was recently some fighting with insurgents and that heli was a follow up to that?
i wish someone would leak the marine air strike video during a funeral, no way in hell could the pentagon claim that it was a legal and within the articles of war.. especially when the pilots and the command talk about wanting to kill a single individual among the other ppl attending the funeral.
i hate PR @$$holes... who lie mislead the public.
i just realize that Aljazeera news isnt even close to what the american media has led americans to believe about them being a middle east propaganda machine with ties to terrorism and insurgents.
they seem to be an honest foreign news media and i am starting to see why the US is claiming the worst they broadcast things US. dont want known. i am really getting annoyed with our politicians and head of government personal.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i just realize that Aljazeera news isnt even close to what the american media has led americans to believe about them being a middle east propaganda machine with ties to terrorism and insurgents.they seem to be an honest foreign news media and i am starting to see why the US is claiming the worst they broadcast things US. dont want known. i am really getting annoyed with our politicians and head of government personal.
I've found Al Jazeera's english coverage to be fantastic. They are certainly willing to tackle issues western media outlets dont, at least from the perspective they take.