FOTJ Luke Skywalker vs DE Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
First of all, what is it with this "condones arguments..."? You took my statement from before COMPLETELY out of context. You should see what context a sentence is in, because otherwise they can have very different meanings. That is one of the most common forms of propaganda. Oh, and I am talking about NOW, because Nai and I were having a debate on Sidious vs Ragnos, and even NOW, using evidence available NOW, still supports Ragnos. And I do always debate using cold, hard facts. I don't remember an argument that I had other than perhaps some of my earlier ones (none of which were in the SW vs forum) in which I didn't have a solid point.

If Nai is still supporting Ragnos' power despite canon to the contrary, then he's wrong. But don't damage your current argument with him by trying to focus back on what was said years ago. We ALL supported the Ancients.

Oh, I'm sorry, I got the definition for condone wrong.

This topic is rife with definition fail.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If Nai is still supporting Ragnos' power despite canon to the contrary, then he's wrong.

Erm. Did I, by chance, miss the canon source that has Ragnos and Sidious fighting with Sidious winning the match? Because if I didn't, there isn't any "canon source" that says Sidious could win a fight against Ragnos - or vice versa.

And let me get this straigth, Hewhoknowsall: I'm not going to discuss that topic with somebody who...

...can't dig around in year old threads, but overlooks stuff discussed weeks ago.
...because of that, propels the "Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith in history" sentence into my face, in an attempt to "prove" that Sidious is the most powerful because a historian and Vader said so. (LMAO)
...ignores my hint to this fact two times and repeats this - his so called "best argument" - like a broken record.
...wouldn't be able to construct a coherent argument, if it would bite his ass off.

That was my last word to you on that matter. Period. And now shut up.

@Elok Quintly
As the point concering Sadows knowledge was the only one we disagreed on (if I got the last posting right):

You have to take into consideration, that the Jedi did pretty much incinerate the entire surface of Yavin 4 when they launched their final attack on Exar Kun. So there probably wasn't much left to find later on, especially if we take into consideration that most of what Sadow had to offer was written on scrolls. Paper usually doesn't survive planet wide fires. That aside: Kun even mentions that he didn't notice any force user on the planet until Luke did arrive for the first time (ANH). He would have noticed Sidious, if he was there.

Because of that it's quite save to assume, that none of the knowledge, that Sadow gained while on Yavin 4, did ever leave the planet.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Did I, by chance, miss the canon source that has Ragnos and Sidious fighting with Sidious winning the match? Because if I didn't, there isn't any "canon source" that says Sidious could win a fight against Ragnos - or vice versa.

And let me get this straigth, [b]Hewhoknowsall: I'm not going to discuss that topic with somebody who...

...can't dig around in year old threads, but overlooks stuff discussed weeks ago.
...because of that, propels the "Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith in history" sentence into my face, in an attempt to "prove" that Sidious is the most powerful because a historian and Vader said so. (LMAO)
...ignores my hint to this fact two times and repeats this - his so called "best argument" - like a broken record.
...wouldn't be able to construct a coherent argument, if it would bite his ass off.

That was my last word to you on that matter. Period. And now shut up.

[/B]

You have to take into consideration, that the Jedi did pretty much incinerate the entire surface of Yavin 4 when they launched their final attack on Exar Kun. So there probably wasn't much left to find later on, especially if we take into consideration that most of what Sadow had to offer was written on scrolls. Paper usually doesn't survive planet wide fires. That aside: Kun even mentions that he didn't notice any force user on the planet until Luke did arrive for the first time (ANH). He would have noticed Sidious, if he was there.

Because of that it's quite save to assume, that none of the knowledge, that Sadow gained while on Yavin 4, did ever leave the planet.

Well, if the new MMO is to be taken seriously, then Sadow's tomb was preserved and I would assume many of his artifacts in his tomb as well, if they weren't stolen by Nadd or those that came after.

Also, in the comics, Exar Kun's lightsaber somehow gets taken off of Yavin IV.

...because of that, propels the "Sidious has been called the most powerful Sith in history" sentence into my face, in an attempt to "prove" that Sidious is the most powerful because a historian and Vader said so. (LMAO)

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Did I, by chance, miss the canon source that has Ragnos and Sidious fighting with Sidious winning the match? Because if I didn't, there isn't any "canon source" that says Sidious could win a fight against Ragnos - or vice versa

Regarding this topic, I stand by my opinion: Luke has certainly had moments in which he's demonstrated sufficient skill and power to take on someone like Palpatine, but I'm simply not convinced that he's in some sort of default uber-state when the dominant trend is to show Luke operating on a power level far less than what you all suggest he is capable of on a day-to-day basis. Palpatine, on the other hand, not only demonstrates power that far outstrips what we've seen from the likes of Caedus and certainly Lumiya, but also a cunning intellect to match. The way I see it is that Luke will be fighting someone who has studied a far greater breadth of Force knowledge, dedicated his life to increasing power rather than wisdom, and is simply more intelligent than he is.

Throwing it up that anyone who is capable of picking Sidious up is capable of killing him isn't valid; Vader's defeat of the Emperor was a far cry from a duel to the death.

Regarding Ragnos vs. Sidious, I would be interested in hearing his opinion on the matter now, but it seems Nai is as eager to discuss the issue as Janus is/was. In either case, HeWhoKnowsNothing should either continue it via PM or discuss it in another thread.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. You have yet to respond to my latest arguments in my PM.

I have to? Certainly not. And I won't, because you are a moron. Which I have said thrice now. So take your "arguments", shine them up real nice, turn them sideways and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

2. You still haven't justified your claim that Sidious would "get smoked in seconds" by any ancient Sith.

I also don't have to justify myself for that. Period.
And if you really need more input on the issue, go here and start reading. And I'm not going to comment on this further. Simply because I won't throw pearls before the swine.

3. You have come up with ZERO proof that Ragnos is in any way better; Ragnos is featless.

Yes. Ragnos is "featless" (in fact he's not, but meh), which means he is an unknown. Now tell me: How do you prove that person X is more powerful than an unknown, when you don't know how powerful the unknown is?
Maybe Ragnos is capable of killing Sidious in seconds. 🙄 Who knows? I don't.

@EQ:

Wasn't it stated in Vader: The Ultimate Guide as well?

In the inner musings of Vader or, in short, by Vader himself.

It's also said on the back of the Emperor Palpatine Ultimate Quarter Scale figure from Diamond Select--not that the latter is a valid canonical source, but don't you find it a bit odd how they'd include it on merchandising?

The back of the Golden Age of the Sith comics calls Ragnos "the most powerful of the most powerful". Several people in the SWU have been referred to as "godlike" or "titanic". Should we buy this without closer examination and without applying reason to the narrative? Doesn't sound right to me.

@Gideon

The way I see it is that Luke will be fighting someone who has studied a far greater breadth of Force knowledge, dedicated his life to increasing power rather than wisdom, and is simply more intelligent than he is.

The way I see it is that Sidious would be fighting someone who has far more combat / duelling experience, has a similar breadth of force knowledge (at least Luke had compareable sources in his hands), dedicated his life to saving the universe from some badass Sith Lords / Aliens / various other threats - and did succeed so far. And, on top of that: Somebody who did already defeat him before while being far less powerful, skilled and experienced.

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding this topic, I stand by my opinion: Luke has certainly had moments in which he's demonstrated sufficient skill and power to take on someone like Palpatine, but I'm simply not convinced that he's in some sort of default uber-state when the dominant trend is to show Luke operating on a power level far less than what you all suggest he is capable of on a day-to-day basis. Palpatine, on the other hand, not only demonstrates power that far outstrips what we've seen from the likes of Caedus and certainly Lumiya, but also a cunning intellect to match. The way I see it is that Luke will be fighting someone who has studied a far greater breadth of Force knowledge, dedicated his life to increasing power rather than wisdom, and is simply more intelligent than he is.

Throwing it up that anyone who is capable of picking Sidious up is capable of killing him isn't valid; Vader's defeat of the Emperor was a far cry from a duel to the death.

Regarding Ragnos vs. Sidious, I would be interested in hearing his opinion on the matter now, but it seems Nai is as eager to discuss the issue as Janus is/was. In either case, HeWhoKnowsNothing should either continue it via PM or discuss it in another thread.

The way it's looking right now, the Sith Emperor is badass. Damn you Bioware.

In the inner musings of Vader or, in short, by Vader himself.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Maybe Ragnos is capable of killing Sidious in seconds. 🙄 Who knows? I don't .

So you're admitting that you have no proof of that claim you made; heck, you yourself don't even know if it's true?

At least I provided an argument. You just admitted above that you have NO proof for your assertion, which I don't have to disprove; the burden of proof is on you to prove it, which you just admitted that you can't. So you can stop with the insults about me "having bad arguments" when you can't even provide one.

Pwned.

Nai
The way I see it is that Sidious would be fighting someone who has far more combat / duelling experience,

Not that I disagree, but I'd like to see conclusive proof of this, since a great deal of Palpatine's training prior to his political career and during his tenure as Emperor, not to mention the time between his death at Endor and Dark Empire, remains unknown:

Nai
Yes. Ragnos is "featless" (in fact he's not, but meh), which means he is an unknown. Now tell me: How do you prove that person X is more powerful than an unknown, when you don't know how powerful the unknown is?
Maybe Ragnos is capable of killing Sidious in seconds. Who knows? I don't.

The same principle applies here: you don't know the extent of Palpatine's dueling/combat experience in total, so you're not in a position to compare his to Luke's.

Nai
has a similar breadth of force knowledge (at least Luke had compareable sources in his hands),

I'm interested in seeing conclusive proof of this.

Nai
And, on top of that: Somebody who did already defeat him before while being far less powerful, skilled and experienced.

This is simply not the case.

"[...]Luke Skywalker had embraced the power of the dark side in an effort to conquer Palpatine. Fortunately, Luke eventually realized that he could not defeat Palpatine alone[...]" -- The Essential Guide to the Force, page 7.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So you're admitting that you have no proof of that claim you made; heck, you yourself don't even know if it's true?

The point is, my little idiot: I know, that I don't know if it's true. You act as if you hold the truth in your hand, while this is - clearly - impossible. You are trying to win a fight that you had already lost before it even started. And the worst thing is, that you appear to be proud about that. Pathetic.

At least I provided an argument. You just admitted above that you have NO proof for your assertion, which I don't have to disprove; the burden of proof is on you to prove it, which you just admitted that you can't. So you can stop with the insults about me "having bad arguments" when you can't even provide one.

Pwned.

My little nobody.

Firstly: As you wanted to prove that Sidious is more powerful than Ragnos, you have also failed. I just knew before that proving this is impossible, hence I didn't waste my time with it (again). And since you challenged my opinion, the burden of prove is on you[i].

Secondly: If you [i]had read my last reply, you would have found a link to a thread which contains tons of pro-Ragnos arguments from myself. If you weren't too lazy to click the link and read them, you would have seen those arguments. I've not only brought them to the table once - but multiple times. Read them. You'll find that I defeated any point you have made in your PMs - 4 years before you typed them down. I don't bother to do it again, because the way you present your "arguments" shows you lack any debating skills. The master doesn't play with the peon.

Thirdly: Let me just reiterate my point: I can make an argument for almost any major player in the SW universe to be the "most powerful". I can do it for Luke, Ragnos, Kun, Sidious at least - with the list extending the less accurate I'm willing to be. And I can do it better than you - without a doubt. For every single one of them. Why? Because I'm not entitled to my personal opinion. Besides knowing that there is no "absolute proof" to put one of them above the other.

See: I just argue for the sake of an argument. It's written down in my user title. If I'm not interested in an argument, I won't participate in it. I've done the "Ragnos VS Sidious" thing about 15 times. I know exactly how it will end: with nobody winning. Because there can be no winner. It's pointless because it's nothing but a matter of personal taste. And it becomes even more pointless without having a "real" opponent - which you aren't. You are nothing, a nobody, a peon, a pain in the ass and a pointless waste of time.

As a last lesson: You don't sign your own post with "pwned". That judgement has to be cast by others. But I understand that you did it, because you would never see it happen otherwise.

Now have fun on my ignore list. I tired of reading your crap.

I read the link. I particularly liked this bit:

Originally posted by tdtd
Nai is my hero

Lol@DS.

Also, why does Lightsnake only have a sig and avatar some of the time? Sock? And its really creepy how people kept, like, being nice and encouraging to each otehr. Eeurgh!

That link was horrendous.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is, my little idiot: I know, that I don't know if it's true. You act as if you hold the truth in your hand, while this is - clearly - impossible. You are trying to win a fight that you had already lost before it even started. And the worst thing is, that you appear to be proud about that. Pathetic.

My little nobody.

Firstly: As you wanted to prove that Sidious is more powerful than Ragnos, you have also failed. I just knew before that proving this is impossible, hence I didn't waste my time with it (again). And since you challenged my opinion, the burden of prove is on you[i].

Secondly: If you [i]had read my last reply, you would have found a link to a thread which contains tons of pro-Ragnos arguments from myself. If you weren't too lazy to click the link and read them, you would have seen those arguments. I've not only brought them to the table once - but multiple times. Read them. You'll find that I defeated any point you have made in your PMs - 4 years before you typed them down. I don't bother to do it again, because the way you present your "arguments" shows you lack any debating skills. The master doesn't play with the peon.

Thirdly: Let me just reiterate my point: I can make an argument for almost any major player in the SW universe to be the "most powerful". I can do it for Luke, Ragnos, Kun, Sidious at least - with the list extending the less accurate I'm willing to be. And I can do it better than you - without a doubt. For every single one of them. Why? Because I'm not entitled to my personal opinion. Besides knowing that there is no "absolute proof" to put one of them above the other.

See: I just argue for the sake of an argument. It's written down in my user title. If I'm not interested in an argument, I won't participate in it. I've done the "Ragnos VS Sidious" thing about 15 times. I know exactly how it will end: with nobody winning. Because there can be no winner. It's pointless because it's nothing but a matter of personal taste. And it becomes even more pointless without having a "real" opponent - which you aren't. You are nothing, a nobody, a peon, a pain in the ass and a pointless waste of time.

As a last lesson: You don't sign your own post with "pwned". That judgement has to be cast by others. But I understand that you did it, because you would never see it happen otherwise.

Now have fun on my ignore list. I tired of reading your crap.

1. You seriously expect me to read 15 pages? You can't just do that. I could very well give you links to every thread that involves Sidious in it, or to Gideon's essay.

2. You made the ASSERTION that Sidious would "get smoked in seconds" by any ancient sith. Upon skimming that thread, you have not provided ANY proof that the ancient sith are even close to Sidious, let alone powerful enough to "smoke him in seconds" You merely point out why you think that the ancient sith are somehow better than Sidious, but give no reason as to how they are so powerful that Sidious would get "smoked in seconds".

3. You just admitted that Ragnos is an unknown, and yet you still argue for him, despite being (by your own concession) an unknown. Wow. The only evidence you can get for an unknown like Ragnos is quotes (which there are none that suggest that Sidious would get "smoked in seconds" by him) and speculation/a few vague feats (none of which suggest that Sidious would get "smoked in seconds" by him.

4. "nobody wining"? At least I have valid evidence supporting Sidious, whereas you just admitted that Ragnos is an unknown.

5. Oh, and that thread that you linked was Ragnos vs DN Luke and DE Sidious. Now forgive me if I'm wrong, since I just skimmed a small portion of it, but you seemed to have supported Ragnos, which is absolutely ridiculous.

PWNED. Seriously. You need to stop insulting people, even if you disagree with them, when they have made valid arguments. I have listed many impressive and valid feats that Sidious has preformed, as well as quotes supporting him.

It's pointless because it's nothing but a matter of personal taste.

How so? Even if we cannot know for sure, what is probable is still bound by objective measures. Personal taste doesn't enter the equation when thinking about whether Sidious would defeat Ragnos in a fight, but rather all of the relevant evidence we have at our disposal and what outcome it would suggest is the most likely.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
How so? Even if we cannot know for sure, what is probable is still bound by objective measures. Personal taste doesn't enter the equation when thinking about whether Sidious would defeat Ragnos in a fight, but rather all of the relevant evidence we have at our disposal and what outcome it would suggest is the most likely.

Interestingly enough, you still haven't responded to my arguments in that Bane thread. I'm sorry if I offended you (strangely, other posters have actually directly insulted you, and you weren't as offended), but if you really support Bane then perhaps you could support your claim.