Originally posted by Nephthys
I read the link. I particularly liked this bit:Lol@DS.
Also, why does Lightsnake only have a sig and avatar some of the time? Sock? And its really creepy how people kept, like, being nice and encouraging to each otehr. Eeurgh!
Is DE dumb enough to still operate under the premise that I'm "tdtd"?
Originally posted by Gideon
Not that I disagree, but I'd like to see conclusive proof of this, since a great deal of Palpatine's training prior to his political career and during his tenure as Emperor, not to mention the time between his death at Endor and Dark Empire, remains unknown:The same principle applies here: you don't know the extent of Palpatine's dueling/combat experience in total, so you're not in a position to compare his to Luke's.
Is that a joke, Gideon?
Luke has spent 40 years with solving crisis on galaxy scale level, including two Galaxy scale wars. During that he dueled about two dozens of skilled force users (including the likes of Lumiya, Sidious and Vader), non force-sensitives (Shimmra, Yuuzhan Vong slayers), Dark Jedi (Kueller, Brakiss, Lomi Plo, Welk). He defeated groups of thugs, assassins and in two instances even entire alien armies (Vong, Killek) - admitedly with help. Not to mention that he did participate in countless of ground battles (starting with the Battle of Hoth).
Meanwhile, logically: Sidious did end his training when he started to train Maul, that happened about 2 decades before TPM. From there on he was more focused on gathering knowledge and his political career than actual training, with this development leading to not touching a lightsaber for 10 years. Even prior to that, his actual combat experience or duelling experience can't have eclipsed what Luke has gone through in the 40 years of his active Jedi life. At least not without there being several galaxy spanning wars that Sidious did participate in as frontline soldier.
We're not arguing abstract terms like "power" here.
I'm interested in seeing conclusive proof of this.
Luke had the Great Holocron (25,000 years worth of Jedi knowledge) and the Telos Holocron. He did read Sidious own books, had access to the Great Library on Ossus, the Chu'unthor (which has been noted as complete training facility including many holocrons), and exotic knowledge (Aing-Tii, Falanassi).
This is simply not the case."[...]Luke Skywalker had embraced the power of the dark side in an effort to conquer Palpatine. Fortunately, Luke eventually realized that he could not defeat Palpatine alone[...]" -- The Essential Guide to the Force, page 7.
So he wasn't able to do this when he embraced the Dark Side. Gosh. That certainly means that this could have never changed. Oh wait. Actually it did, when he cut off Sidious hand later in DE and seperated him from his own force storm. Oh yes: Leia helped. In a fashion that Luke not only didn't notice, but that was just unleashing a part of Luke's potential.
So it was still Luke who brought Sidious down.
Funny, Nai; you put me on ignore so that you have an excuse to not respond to me, because you can't justify CLAIMING that Sidious would "get smoked in seconds" by Ragnos.
Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
I have provided a counter argument via PM.
So far I haven't received one...are you sure that you sent it to the right person?
Luke wins this fight. The only areas where Sidious might win are 2 and 5.
why do you people PM debate star wars? Makes it personal, heck, makes it WEIRD.
I got a PM once from a movie forum debator that went something like : "If you really believe X can truly beat Y, you are a moron and not worth debating with. Y would clearly beat X because of
1.
2.
3.
I kinda went.... UM.... Creeper stalker anyone?
Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
How so? Even if we cannot know for sure, what is probable is still bound by objective measures. Personal taste doesn't enter the equation when thinking about whether Sidious would defeat Ragnos in a fight, but rather all of the relevant evidence we have at our disposal and what outcome it would suggest is the most likely.
What relevant evidence are you talking about? There is none. The only relevant evidence would be a fight between Ragnos and Sidious happening somewhere in the canon. Otherwise there is no relevant evidence.
Objective measures would suggest that you can't compare figures from different time frames and that one could only guess what the outcome of this fight would be. A victory of Sidious isn't "more likely" just because he has more screentime.
My claim: Sidious > Ragnos
My evidence: numerous quotes claiming him to be the most powerful Sith lord of all time, numerous feats such as destroying entire fleets and defeating 3 accomplished Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds, and Ragno's lack of any major feats due to being an unknown.
Nai's claim: Sidious "would get smoked in seconds" by Ragnos.
Nai's evidence:
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. Ragnos is "featless" (in fact he's not, but meh), which means he is an unknown. Now tell me: How do you prove that person X is more powerful than an unknown, when you don't know how powerful the unknown is?
Maybe Ragnos is capable of killing Sidious in seconds. 🙄 Who knows? I don't.
Nai
Is that a joke, Gideon?
Not at all.
While it's highly unlikely that Palpatine so much as touched a lightsaber during his thirteen year stint as Supreme Chancellor, we haven't a clue as to his lightsaber aptitude or experience during the twenty years prior to that (as Senator) or twenty years after (as Emperor). You aren't in a position to make an accurate comparison between Skywalker and Palpatine in terms of dueling experience; a better argument for Luke could be made about frontline combat experience, in which it's pretty much certain that Palpatine never saw any in terms of outside lightsaber duels, but that is not what you claimed.
Palpatine is an unknown in this regard; you've made it abundantly clear that you feel no accurate comparison can be made one way or another between Marka Ragnos and Palpatine. The same principle applies here as regards Luke's dueling experience relative to the Emperor's.
Nai
Luke had the Great Holocron (25,000 years worth of Jedi knowledge)and the Telos Holocron.
The Essential Guide to the Force says that the Telos Holocron and the object that is likely the Great Holocron was recovered during the Legacy of the Force, after Mara Jade's death, indicating he didn't have the time nor the inclination to study it at that point, which leaves only two years or so between then and Fate of the Jedi. Hardly comparable to Palpatine's decades of study.
Nai
He did read Sidious own books,
Three of them; Palpatine planned to write hundreds.
I'll address the rest in a separate post.
Nai
So he wasn't able to do this when he embraced the Dark Side. Gosh. That certainly means that this could have never changed. Oh wait. Actually it did, when he cut off Sidious hand later in DE and seperated him from his own force storm. Oh yes: Leia helped. In a fashion that Luke not only didn't notice, but that was just unleashing a part of Luke's potential.
The second sentence is not contingent on the first; Luke going to the dark side is not a qualifier or a condition placed on the fact that he couldn't defeat Palpatine alone. Leia and Anakin's powers were required to initiate the Force Harmony technique that briefly interrupted the Emperor's control over his Force Storm.
Nai
So it was still Luke who brought Sidious down.
In Luke's own words to Leia as they escape the Eclipse, "[Palpatine's] conquered himself!" They didn't overpower his Force Storm nor shut it down; and Luke didn't do anything in the end to stop Palpatine on his own.
Make your argument with canon sources and quotes; I don't want to hear about "Leia unlocking a part of Luke's potential" unless it says as much with specific phrasings, nor do am I interested in seeing you say "no" to a canon source that specifically states Luke couldn't beat the Emperor alone.
If that's all you've got, then this conversation is over.
Nai
had access to the Great Library on Ossus, the Chu'unthor (which has been noted as complete training facility including many holocrons), and exotic knowledge (Aing-Tii, Falanassi).
Palpatine Essay
Of all the mystics and shamans and Jedi and Sith that have been portrayed in the mythos, there is no individual whose knowledge of the Force comes close to registering to that of Darth Sidious. The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that, upon his ascent to Galactic Emperor, Palpatine “gathered the greatest works [of Force knowledge] from over a million worlds” and “studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqinne or the tales of the Tyia,” and that he had “long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath and Heresiarchs.” The New Essential Guide to Characters mentions that Palpatine had studied the Sorcerers of Tund prior to their destruction, particularly the adept Rokur Gepta. Many may be unfamiliar with these four esoteric Force cults, so a brief overview shall be provided.The Jarvashqinne and Heresiarchs are easily the two most obscure references. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia states that the Jarvashqinne is “a term that described both a religion that worshipped individuals who had mystical powers, as well as the shaman-like priests who wielded those powers, which were much like the control of the Force,” and that the Heresiarchs were “one of the many religious sects formed on the basis of Sith lore and teachings.” The same source concludes that the Krath was “a secret society founded by dark side dabblers and spoiled aristocrats Aleema and Satal Keto some 4,000 years before the Galactic Civil War in the Empress Teta star system,” and that it “developed into a dark side magical sect” before “being destroyed by several Jedi Knights.”
The Sorcerers of Tund was a “mysterious and ancient sect once based on the planet Tund,” that “traced their origins back to the Sith Empire,” according to the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The New Essential Chronology and the Essential Guide to the Force conclude that the Sorcerers’ teachings were based on “archaic interpretations of original Sith doctrine,” which served to attract Emperor Palpatine’s interest. Though the extent of the Sorcerers’ power has not been explored, the Essential Guide to the Force mentions that they were frequently visited by Jedi recruiters and periodically asked to join the Order, “but the sorcerers—some of whom demonstrated powers at least as great as those of the Jedi recruiters—declined.”
During his many decades as the reigning Sith Lord, Palpatine acquired an unimaginable wealth of knowledge. Star Wars: Complete Locations mentions that his headquarters within the Chancellor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center contained “archives, Sith holocrons, and other artifacts,” an “environmentally controlled display case for Sith scrolls,” and a “massive Sith holocron uncovered on Korriban.” After the execution of Order 66, the Jedi Archives on Coruscant were “raided by Emperor Palpatine and his Dark Side Adepts,” according to the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions a “full library of Dark Side texts” within Palpatine’s Citadel on Byss and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia’s entry on the same Citadel reveals that it was home to “libraries of dark side tomes” and “dark side alchemical laboratories.”
According to the Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia, page 51, a holocron was “a recording device used by the ancient Jedi Knights and Sith Lords to hold the teachings and lore needed to maintain the Jedi and Sith Orders.” The same source states that Emperor Palpatine “collected all manner of holocrons—both Sith and Jedi alike—in order to garner new information about use of the Force.” Palpatine’s subsequent raid of the Jedi Archives yielded the “restricted holocrons” which contained the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force,”—the ones desperately sought by Anakin Skywalker shortly before the rise of the Empire, which he intended to use to save his wife, Senator Padme Amidala, from inevitable death.
One of the notable holocrons in Palpatine’s clutches was the Tedryn Holocron (referred to by the New Jedi Order as “the Jedi Holocron”), which Palpatine claimed had been given to him by Jedi Master Ashka Boda, who was murdered by the Emperor at the end of the Clone Wars. This holocron would be stolen from Palpatine by Leia Organa Solo during the events of Operation Shadow Hand and subsequently destroyed by the spirit of ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun (The Essential Guide to the Force).
Another notable holocron that found itself in the Emperor’s grip was the Telos Holocron, recovered by the New Jedi Order during the so-called ‘Second Galactic Civil War’. This holocron in particular was of interest to the Jedi, due to the fact that Palpatine himself was the ‘gatekeeper’—the personage who functioned as the holocron’s archivist. Subsequent analysis of the Telos Holocron included a tour of the dark side, with Palpatine’s simulacrum functioning as a guide to the holocron’s audience, featured within the New Essential Guide to the Force. Within included entries from relatively obscure Sith Lords such as the ancient Ajunta Pall and Brotherhood of Darkness disciple Seviss Vaa to the more infamous and notorious Sith Lords such as Darth Bane and Darth Revan. Palpatine would periodically offer addendums to his predecessor’s work, correcting them or offering corroborative observations. The New Essential Guide to the Force also confirms many details about the Emperor’s knowledge of the Force and locations of Force relics.
An entry by Seviss Vaa conclusion that “many prominent Sith worlds—including Ziost, Khar Delba, and Khar Shian—went the way of Ashas Ree, as all were largely stripped of their relics by Republic forces after the Great Hyperspace War,” inciting this rebuttal from Palpatine’s simulacrum.
“Regarding Seviss Vaa’s descriptions of the worlds in Sith space, I can only assume he either lied about his visits to Khar Delba and Khar Shian or that his powers of observation were sorely lacking, as I discovered valuable relics on both worlds.”
The Emperor’s simulacrum revealed his knowledge of the works of “an ancient Jedi consular named Kla” who “turned to the ways of the Sith and became the gatekeeper for a most enlightening Holocron, which found its way into [his] possession.” He would go onto accredit Kla with “an encyclopedic knowledge of the Sith Empire under Naga Sadow,” and “although [Kla] didn’t always cite his sources, some of his knowledge may have been gained from a Sith Holocron kept by the Jedi Master Odan-Urr on Ossus,” indicating that Palpatine had acquired relics from the Jedi headquarters there.
The Dark Side Sourcebook cites “Sith alchemy” as being a practice that only the most powerful adepts can master. Palpatine’s simulacrum makes reference to the teachings of Naga Sadow, “one of the most powerful Sith alchemists” of the Sith Empire, “who left detailed records of his Holocron [Palpatine] came across some years ago.” Palpatine would later conclude that Sadow was “far too generous with his knowledge.”
The Dark Empire Sourcebook makes mention of the Emperor’s Dark Side Compendium, which the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia defines as “an encyclopedia of dark side lore that was being written by the reborn clone Emperor.” The same source mentions that the Compendium, when completed, would have spanned several hundred volumes. The Emperor managed to complete only three before being destroyed by Luke Skywalker and his fledgling new Jedi Order in 11 ABY.
Given ample analysis of the various characters throughout canon, the only obvious conclusion is that Emperor Palpatine’s knowledge of the Force far exceeds that of any other being in terms of scope and scale. There is none who come close. Indeed, the Dark Empire Sourcebook provides an assessment of Darth Sidious’s knowledge in just two sentences:“Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.”
Comparing Luke and Palpatine in the area of Force knowledge is absurd; based on what you've given me, it's a definite curbstomp in favor of the Emperor.
I thought this was solved back in 05? Or was it 04? ****, I wish I could remember my old account...
Luke isn't and order of magnitude more powerful than Sidious, that is a severe exaggeration. In fact, this fight would be rather close. Would be. If we forgot half the shit Luke's pulled and simply recalled inconsistencies in his power. Come on guys, and Gideon, hasn't this topic been done to every circle of hell and every realm of heaven, brought back, and put down again for good?
This should have stopped long ago. How about we move one to more fleet oriented discussions and away from the Jedi/Sith crap.
Originally posted by Letum Lettow
I thought this was solved back in 05? Or was it 04? ****, I wish I could remember my old account...Luke isn't and order of magnitude more powerful than Sidious, that is a severe exaggeration. In fact, this fight would be rather close. Would be. [b]If we forgot half the shit Luke's pulled and simply recalled inconsistencies in his power
. Come on guys, and Gideon, hasn't this topic been done to every circle of hell and every realm of heaven, brought back, and put down again for good?This should have stopped long ago. How about we move one to more fleet oriented discussions and away from the Jedi/Sith crap. [/B]
Ha ha. I had to read that twice to get that.
Who do we have the pleasure of addressing?
While it's highly unlikely that Palpatine so much as touched a lightsaber during his thirteen year stint as Supreme Chancellor, we haven't a clue as to his lightsaber aptitude or experience during the twenty years prior to that (as Senator) or twenty years after (as Emperor).