No, he definitely had two different lightsabers. The one he used in the duel with Mace had a gold/electrum and silver finish, while the one he used in the Senate duel had a black, gold, and silver finish.
While I don't have a good reference photo of the actual hilt prop used in the movie, this image of the lightsaber accessories that come with Sideshow Collectibles' 1/6th scale Palpatine figure should suffice.
Nai, just to double check on two things:
1. Are you suggesting that evidence can only be relevant if it either provides undeniable proof for a given argument, or if it directly relates to the given argument (as in within the context of the battle, the evidence has to be direct to the point that it derives from the very same battle already having been played out)?
2. Are you suggesting that evidence, as long as it doesn't provide undeniable proof for the given argument, is no better than a complete lack of evidence at reaching a probability behind a given argument?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Now where the hell did you get those pictures?
Originally posted by Gideon
While it's highly unlikely that Palpatine so much as touched a lightsaber during his thirteen year stint as Supreme Chancellor, we haven't a clue as to his lightsaber aptitude or experience during the twenty years prior to that (as Senator) or twenty years after (as Emperor). You aren't in a position to make an accurate comparison between Skywalker and Palpatine in terms of dueling experience; a better argument for Luke could be made about frontline combat experience, in which it's pretty much certain that Palpatine never saw any in terms of outside lightsaber duels, but that is not what you claimed.
No?
Originally posted by Borbarad
The way I see it is that Sidious would be fighting someone who has far more combat / duelling experience
Didn't I clearly destinquish between combat experience and duelling experience? Not that it would matter. Sidious couldn't have dueled with too many people. Before he became politician, people would have noticed if Jedi simply "disappeared" or destinctive lightsaber wounds / damages would have been found. Operating that weapon in "public" does generate attention - something Sidious clearly wanted to avoid.
After being crowned Emperor, Sidious - quoting your Sidious essay - "hardly left the Imperial Palace", with the exception of trips to Byss. I doubt there were much Jedi to duel there. That aside he pretty much left the Jedi-fighting-business to Vader himself.
This would pretty much reduce the amount of Sidious duelling experience to fighting his own master Plagueis and his own apprentice Darth Maul. And while sparring with them could have led to stay in tune with his abilities, that's hardly compareable to Luke's actual duelling + combat + training experience.
Palpatine is an unknown in this regard; you've made it abundantly clear that you feel no accurate comparison can be made one way or another between Marka Ragnos and Palpatine. The same principle applies here as regards Luke's dueling experience relative to the Emperor's.
And with "unknown" you mean "While he actually had neither time nor opponents to participate in duels - he could have done so, more often than Luke"?
The Essential Guide to the Force says that the Telos Holocron and the object that is likely the Great Holocron was recovered during the Legacy of the Force, after Mara Jade's death, indicating he didn't have the time nor the inclination to study it at that point, which leaves only two years or so between then and Fate of the Jedi. Hardly comparable to Palpatine's decades of study.
What decades of study? You mean the time when Sidious wasn't busy playing Senator / Chancelor and playing political games as Emperor? Luke has been shown to either learn or invent new abilities in about every single story arch from ESB on, at times even mastering abilities with one or two attempts to use them (e.g. the Falanassi manipulation of the White Current, the Aing-Tii teleportation). Even when we see him use the force for the very first time he almost instantly manages to do what Kenobi wanted him to do. Apparently Luke's force potential allows him to understand and master force applications far faster than ordinary students of the force, resulting in a greater ability to learn / master new stuff. And apparently it allowed him to invent own techiques as well ("green sparks instakill"😉.
Three of them; Palpatine planned to write hundreds.
And that is said were exactly? And even without doubting the statement (which was most likely coming from Sidious himself): Hundreds of books won't even equal a fraction of the knowledge that can be stored in a holocron. In fact the Essential Guide through the Force suggests that the "Great Holocron" included so much information that even the longest living Jedi (800 years and upwards since Yoda is mentioned) wouldn't be able to study all of the knowledge contained within.
The second sentence is not contingent on the first; Luke going to the dark side is not a qualifier or a condition placed on the fact that he couldn't defeat Palpatine alone. Leia and Anakin's powers were required to initiate the Force Harmony technique that briefly interrupted the Emperor's control over his Force Storm.
Would you stop omitting the context please? The passage that this quote is taken from starts on page 6 of the Essential Guide: "Leia had no reason to doubt the veracity of the prophecy, for it described her then current situation[...]". Everything that follows describes said situation, which included Luke not being able to defeate Sidious from "inside the Dark Side".
My idea here is pretty much confirmed by the fact that Luke was able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight on his own when Leia managed to redeem him from the Dark Side.
Make your argument with canon sources and quotes; I don't want to hear about "Leia unlocking a part of Luke's potential" unless it says as much with specific phrasings, nor do am I interested in seeing you say "no" to a canon source that specifically states Luke couldn't beat the Emperor alone.
Uh-hu.
Luke: "Join your Jedi power to mine Luke!"
Leia: "I already am, Luke. Haven't you sensed it --?"
No. Obviously he didn't sense it. So one could doubt that Leia did actually make a great contribution here. Then the narration goes on:
"As Leia's intenstity continues to unlock unexpected resource in Luke[i/][...]"
Again: The narrator makes no mention of Leia directly contributing her power here, but she's just unlocking additional resources [i]in Luke which would lead to the suggestion that cutting Sidious connection to his force storm was mostly based on Luke's own power - if not totally. At least there is nothing to suggest that Leia aided him beyond allowing him access to his very own - yet undiscovered - resources or, in short, his yet-to-be-unleashed potential.
That aside: There isn't a single source stating that Leia helped her brother during the lightsaber duel in which he did beat Sidious. So apparently even DE Luke is capable of defeating the Emperor in a lightsaber contest. And if that's the case, it stands to reason that any later version of Luke would dominate Sidious in the saber department.
Comparing Luke and Palpatine in the area of Force knowledge is absurd;
It is?
All you brought to the table concering Palpatines force knowledge are extremly vague statements, that neither define the extend nor the quality of Sidious own knowledge. Then we have obvious hyperbole (force knowledge from "millions of worlds" - LOL) and that's it.
Did Luke have more or less? Who knows? We don't know how much of Sidious own source Luke found on Coruscant and how much knowledge he accessed while being Sidious apprentice. We do know that he had the stuff contained in the Chu'unthor (apparently some holocrons and other information) for 33 years. He had access to everything that was still on Ossus (for 3 decades). He did - at least for a time - operate under the premise that both Dark Side and Light Side powers can be utilized by a Jedi - and did so with rather devastating effect at times.
He, much like Sidious, had contact with some "exotic" force using organizations, ranging from the Jensaari over the Falanassi to the Aing-Tii. And he learned some nice stuff on that occassions, at times mastering abilities native to those groups in the matter of several hours / days / weeks (e.g. Force Teleportation).
But, I have to agree: Comparing the knowledge of those two is absurd, but only because knowledge doesn't determine the winner in a fight. And here we are back at Luke's career in contrast to that of Sidious. Luke was forced to utilize his skills in combat over a time span of 40 years and we know that he tailored force abilities just for that cause ("green sparks instakill"😉, saw probably forgotten Dark Side attacks in action (the ability Kun's spirit used on him) while utilizing more common force attacks himself (choke, lightning, offensive TK).
Sidious, on the contrary, did never focus on fighting. He was the puppet master pulling the strings from behind the scenes but left combat to his minions (Dooku, Grievous, Vader) at almost all times. So why should we assume that Sidious has the greater arsenal of force abilities useable in combat situations? Why should we assume that he can utilize them better than Luke Skywalker, who has - without a doubt - seen far more frontline action than Sidious (which included taking on an entire army of Yuuzhan Vong in a "3 VS 1000s situation"😉.
@Won Fei Fon
Nai, just to double check on two things:1. Are you suggesting that evidence can only be relevant if it either provides undeniable proof for a given argument, or if it directly relates to the given argument (as in within the context of the battle, the evidence has to be direct to the point that it derives from the very same battle already having been played out)?
If you want to prove that character X can defeat character Y than this is the only way to do it. Anything else is speculation. Hell. I even had debates about fights that we had already seen. I remember some hilarious Mace-VS-Sidious debates after RotS that kept going on until the DVD was released with Lucas stating himself that Mace overpowered Sidious.
2. Are you suggesting that evidence, as long as it doesn't provide undeniable proof for the given argument, is no better than a complete lack of evidence at reaching a probability behind a given argument?
Where did somebody talk about a "complete lack of evidence"?
Originally posted by Elok QuintlyNo, I'm just bugged that you actually have pictures like that on hand. Nerd.
The image has a watermark. Keep in mind these are just accessories for a high-end collectible figure and aren't real props. I use to have a clear image of Palpatine's senate duel lightsaber prop from Hyperspace, but I lost it. If you doubt the validity of these items, then I suggest taking a close look at the weapon Sidious wields during his fight with Yoda.
Nai
Didn't I clearly destinquish between combat experience and duelling experience? Not that it would matter.
You did, and yet you treat them as though they are one in the same. None of us have a clue as to the extent of Palpatine's role as a duelist during the decades prior to his Chancellorship or after; what we do know is that he regarded his lightsaber with enough significance to carry it on his person at least as far as the Force Unleashed, suggesting that he may have utilized it in a dueling regimen.
We don't know for certain, which is why it's asinine to speak in absolute terms that Luke's dueling experience is "far greater" than the Emperor's.
Nai
Sidious couldn't have dueled with too many people.
Nai
After being crowned Emperor, Sidious - quoting your Sidious essay -"hardly left the Imperial Palace", with the exception of trips to Byss. I doubt there were much Jedi to duel there.
No one here said that he dueled Jedi, though it is entirely possible.
Nai
that's hardly compareable to Luke's actual duelling + combat + training experience.
No one compared Palpatine's frontline combat experience to Luke's and no one said that Palpatine's dueling experience was on par with Luke's, either. What I said was that no one is in a position to know for certain, since Palpatine was a Sith Lord for decades prior to his ascent to Supreme Chancellor and ruled the galaxy as Emperor for decades prior.
Nai
What decades of study? You mean the time when Sidious wasn't busy playing Senator / Chancelor and playing political games as Emperor?
The Ultimate Visual Guide says explicitly that Palpatine deferred the majority of his authority to advisors and commanders, becoming a recluse, and "thoroughly dedicating himself to the study of the Force." Two relatively uninterrupted decades as Galactic Emperor to study the Force > three years or so to study the [possible] Great Holocron and the Telos Holocron.
My essay
Of all the mystics and shamans and Jedi and Sith that have been portrayed in the mythos, there is no individual whose knowledge of the Force comes close to registering to that of Darth Sidious. The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that, upon his ascent to Galactic Emperor, Palpatine “gathered the greatest works [of Force knowledge] from over a million worlds” and “studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqinne or the tales of the Tyia,” and that he had “long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath and Heresiarchs.”
Nai
And that is said were exactly?
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.
Nai
In fact the Essential Guide through the Force suggests that the "Great Holocron" included so much information that even the longest living Jedi (800 years and upwards since Yoda is mentioned) wouldn't be able to study all of the knowledge contained within.
I'm certain of that, but we're not comparing Holocrons here, we're comparing studies. The Essential Guide to the Force says that the Telos Holocron and the [possible] Great Holocron were recovered around the time of Mara Jade's death -- three years or so prior to Fate of the Jedi. Luke's three years studying awesome holocrons versus Palpatine's twenty? Not close.
Nai
It is?
All you brought to the table concering Palpatines force knowledge are extremly vague statements, that neither define the extend nor the quality of Sidious own knowledge. Then we have obvious hyperbole (force knowledge from "millions of worlds" - LOL) and that's it.
Obviously hyperbole? Seems like you're terribly thin on providing justification for it.
Nai
Did Luke have more or less? Who knows?
We do. You asserted that they have the same breadth of knowledge; all you've offered me includes: a.) the Telos Holocron that he could have only possibly studied in three years, b.) the [possible] Great Holocron that he could have only possibly studied in three years, c.) the Chu'unthor, which I will concede readily is pretty impressive, and d.) his trips throughout Fate of the Jedi to other Force-using organizations.
The first two are irrelevant; Luke may have studied possibly two great sources of Force-related information for a maximum of three years, and you honestly expect me to think that that's on par with Palpatine's decades of study of a far greater breadth of knowledge? The Chu'untor doesn't exactly tip the scales, nor does Luke's occasional visit to a non-Jedi Force organization.
I remain unimpressed and based on what we know, Luke isn't even in the same order of magnitude in terms of Force knowledge as Palpatine.
As far as his performance in Dark Empire goes, we have canon confirmation that he couldn't defeat Palpatine alone. So assuming I'm charitable here and ignore the fact that Leia may very well have been influencing the duel with her own powers -- "I already am, Luke!" -- and then I conclude Luke won the lightsaber duel... nowhere does that mean he could have taken Palpatine in the end (there was the Force, after all) and it doesn't mean he'll do so now.
This isn't just a blade contest.
Again, I stand by my opinion. I'm very surprised with what you've offered in the realm of defending Luke's Force knowledge compared to Palpatine and I'm equally shocked that you interpret a line you don't like as hyperbole (the idea that Palpatine gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from over a million worlds is hardly hyperbole; he was the supreme political and military authority in the galaxy, who was going to stop him?), when in a similar argument, Luke tethering himself to the ground in such a manner as to resist a black hole isn't hyperbole.
It seems to me that you're cherrypicking to suit your argument. You can call it playing the Devil's advocate, but I'm not interested in nor patient enough to deal with double standards.
This discussion is over, Nai, until such a time that you marginalize your double standards with unknowns (the special status you give Ragnos as opposed to Palpatine) and hyperbole (the special status you give Luke).
Originally posted by GideonAgain, I stand by my opinion. I'm very surprised with what you've offered in the realm of defending Luke's Force knowledge compared to Palpatine and I'm equally shocked that you interpret a line you don't like as hyperbole (the idea that Palpatine gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from over a million worlds is hardly hyperbole; he was the supreme political and military authority in the galaxy, who was going to stop him?), when in a similar argument, Luke tethering himself to the ground in such a manner as to resist a black hole isn't hyperbole.
Just 2 things:
1. Weren't you in favor of ruling Luke's feat a hyperbole? If not, then nevermind, but some were. Now you yourself call the sidious situation similar, but say it is NOT hyperbole? What?
2. just musing about this, the sidious statement is actually impossible to be literally true. There is no time for a living human being to do a million of anything like this, ever. A million hours is just over 114 years. So I guess we can say he could have anything significant on a million worlds with his inferiors bringing it to him, but he wouldn't have time to study it all, if it literally came from a million worlds.
TJ
1. Weren't you in favor of ruling Luke's feat a hyperbole? If not, then nevermind, but some were. Now you yourself call the sidious situation similar, but say it is NOT hyperbole? What?
I called Skywalker's feat hyperbole because this feat isn't corroborated by similar showings of strength and is essentially disregarded by other, subsequent material.
TJ
2. just musing about this, the sidious statement is actually impossible to be literally true. There is no time for a living human being to do a million of anything like this, ever. A million hours is just over 114 years. So I guess we can say he could have anything significant on a million worlds with his inferiors bringing it to him, but he wouldn't have time to study it all, if it literally came from a million worlds.
The bolded part is what's important, because that's exactly what the quote says, "Palpatine gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds." I didn't claim he studied it all, nor does the quote itself.
Given Palpatine's resources and time, the quote has merit. Far, far, far, far, far, far, far more merit than Luke's tethering feat, but I digress.
TJ
You did.
k.
TJ
I, of course, think you are wrong.
I know.
TJ
I'm big on omniscient narrators being considered canon though.
And what makes you so certain that it was an omniscient narrator and not Luke's own opinion (or Thul's, for that matter) indicating such? The difference between the two suspect statements is that Palpatine's access to considerable Force knowledge has been corroborated and supplemented by various sources, as mentioned in my essay.
Sorry, like it or not, but it has at least as much merit as Luke's little tether thingy. That's really notI don't see how it would be up for discussion, other than letting personal biases conflict with the truth.
Originally posted by Gideon
You did, and yet you treat them as though they are one in the same.
Yes. Because I filed both things under "lightsaber experience".
No one here said that he dueled Jedi, though it is entirely possible.
Anything else wouldn't be duelling but sparring.
The Ultimate Visual Guide says explicitly that Palpatine deferred the majority of his authority to advisors and commanders, becoming a recluse, and "thoroughly dedicating himself to the study of the Force." Two relatively uninterrupted decades as Galactic Emperor to study the Force > three years or so to study the [possible] Great Holocron and the Telos Holocron.
Luke had a total of 30 years to study the force, 36 when you start with the discovery of the Chu'unthor. And you're constructing a biased argument here: Sidious couldn't have spent too much time with single sources either, provided that he apperently had so many of them to study.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.
Quote please.
I'm certain of that, but we're not comparing Holocrons here, we're comparing studies. The Essential Guide to the Force says that the Telos Holocron and the [possible] Great Holocron were recovered around the time of Mara Jade's death -- three years or so prior to Fate of the Jedi. Luke's three years studying awesome holocrons versus Palpatine's twenty? Not close.
We have 36 years of Luke studying awesome holocrons, provided that some of them were on board of the Chu'unthor. Then we have 33 years for whatever knowledge was found on Ossus - and for everything Sidious gave him access to and for everything he learned from Joruus. 32 years for everything that was stored within the Imperial Palace on Coruscant (most of Sidious own collection?). 27 years with anything he learned from the Falanassi.
And thanks for the biased argument again: You take two of Luke's sources and then go "Oh noes. Sidious had thirty years to study the force - Luke just three years". What a joke.
Obviously hyperbole? Seems like you're terribly thin on providing justification for it.
Simple math, Gideon. How would force knowledge have found it's way to (at least) 2 million worlds? Or is the million referring to the size of Sidious Empire and he merely garthered what he was capable of finding there (meaning the knowledge could have come from 2 worlds out of that millions for example). In that case the quote isn't hyperbole but you merely used it in an ambigious fashion.
We do. You asserted that they have the same breadth of knowledge; all you've offered me includes: a.) the Telos Holocron that he could have only possibly studied in three years, b.) the [possible] Great Holocron that he could have only possibly studied in three years, c.) the Chu'unthor, which I will concede readily is pretty impressive, and d.) his trips throughout Fate of the Jedi to other Force-using organizations.
I'm pretty sure that I mentioned: Anything Sidious had offered to him, anything he found on the Imperial Palace, anything he found on Ossus (Great Library) his meeting with the Jensaraai and the Falanassi (both 30 years in the past)...thanks for ignoring that.
The first two are irrelevant; Luke may have studied possibly two great sources of Force-related information for a maximum of three years, and you honestly expect me to think that that's on par with Palpatine's decades of study of a far greater breadth of knowledge?
Bane did receive a lot of knowledge from Revan's holocron in the matter of days. And I love how you stick to "Palpatine's greater breadth of knowledge" when Luke had access to the main depot of Sidious knowledge (the Imperial Palace on Coruscant) and trained under Sidious himself.
The Chu'untor doesn't exactly tip the scales, nor does Luke's occasional visit to a non-Jedi Force organization.
No. Luke's greater force potential and the fact that he had access to Sidious sources could tip the scale. Nice that you ignored all hints to that coming from me.
As far as his performance in Dark Empire goes, we have canon confirmation that he couldn't defeat Palpatine alone.
I've already corrected your gross missinterpretation of the source by putting it into context. Your argument is debunked.
So assuming I'm charitable here and ignore the fact that Leia may very well have been influencing the duel with her own powers -- "I already am, Luke!" -- and then I conclude Luke won the lightsaber duel... nowhere does that mean he could have taken Palpatine in the end (there was the Force, after all) and it doesn't mean he'll do so now.
Given that those words are spoken after the duel and given how Luke even then doesn't notice Leia's help - besides no source suggesting that Leia helped during the duel - you're not "charitable" here, but merely accepting the facts that you don't like.
And what? So Luke can defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel but then has to wait for Sidious to muster some force attack instead of cutting him down - which is what he did in DE?
This isn't just a blade contest.
And this isn't just DE Luke...
Again, I stand by my opinion. I'm very surprised with what you've offered in the realm of defending Luke's Force knowledge compared to Palpatine and I'm equally shocked that you interpret a line you don't like as hyperbole (the idea that Palpatine gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from over a million worlds is hardly hyperbole; he was the supreme political and military authority in the galaxy, who was going to stop him?), when in a similar argument, Luke tethering himself to the ground in such a manner as to resist a black hole isn't hyperbole.
I'm very surprised that you ignored half of my argument and still claim you have defended your opinion. And I didn't see any (possible) hyperbole for Luke handed as an argument in here from my side. Strawman time again, Gideon?
It seems to me that you're cherrypicking to suit your argument. You can call it playing the Devil's advocate, but I'm not interested in nor patient enough to deal with double standards.
Like yourself do, by offering missinterpretation of sources, omitting facts and ignoring points? Nice call. Accusing me of none existing double standards is also quite nice, especially in a detail, which is not only not a part of this discussion, but also has never been examined closer by myself.
This discussion is over, Nai, until such a time that you marginalize your double standards with unknowns (the special status you give Ragnos as opposed to Palpatine) and hyperbole (the special status you give Luke).
Yes. The discussion is over. I'm not interessted in talking to people who just read what they want to read and ignore points that they can't answer and repeat already defeated points. I had enough of that in the past 5 years.
Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, A-G, page 168:
Dark Side Compendium An encyclopedia of dark side lore that was being written by the reborn clone Emperor. He had completed three volumes of a proposed several-hundred-volume set before being defeated by Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia Organa Solo. Luke read all three volumes: the Book of Anger, the Weakness of Inferiors, and the Creation of Monsters.