LOK3 Defiance vs. Twilight Princess

Originally posted by Burning thought

Because its an illusion/mimic of each fight, the power of suggestion is incredible by itself without someone actually seeing before them what their opponent wants them to like Zant seems to be able to. He seems to be able to illusionscape the events from Links mind that Link has previously faced. Also I can throw these back at you and ask why Zant allows himself to be affected by acid water, or why he gives himself the disadvantages of said bosses that he mimics if its him apprently "warping reality", its BS.

Stop reaching. Stop making things up. Stop lying to yourself. The arenas are sufficiently different and the environment also affects Zant, so it is obviously not an illusion. Zant doesn't have the disadvantages of the bosses, what are you talking about? Each fight was completely different, save for the fact that Link uses the dungeon items in a different way. Zant obviously has some serious creation powers.

Its real enough to make Link believe it, theres no evidence to suggest Zant is creating these places physically.

Not an illusion.

No, further proof he teleported elseware. You dont see to know "where" that is, and it seems he teleported to an area that was not seen previously.

"This place doesn't exist, but Zant teleported to it anyway."

Morpheel's arena is still missing water, but they're close enough for you to think they're the same.

Theres no indication of protection from anyone, the only thing thats true is after the years Raziel spent in the abyss he was revived one way or another, you will need to prove Zant can keep Raziel in this scape (if he could get him in it) for this duration otherwise he would have done so to Link.

Raziel (or any vampire) dissolves in seconds.

YouTube video

0:19
"You did not survive the abyss, Raziel. I have only spared you from total dissolution."

0:40
"You are reborn."

Elder God protected him, he says it himself. This doesn't matter since Raziel can resist water now, but Kain or any other vampire can't and Zant will destroy them.

He cant do these things willy nilly and twilight has not affected anything beyond peasents by the looks of the initial video where Zant calls it down. He also requires lack of light, such as the light spirits. 5 seconds is a long time for a few guys to release arrows.

Peasants, soldiers, shamans, etc. And did you not see where he calls twilight into Zelda's castle? No Light Spirit defeat required, though I suppose they are in this fight.

What? fast enough to teleport away before warping reality? the areas he forms are fairly small, room sized assuming he does warp reality or create illusions (i sitll think its more likely teleport, the areas are too similiar in detail and it would not make sense) he is within range of any LoK weapon which would kill him before he can release the "warp".

Telports behind them, warps before they can turn around and aim. It's not like arrows will do much since Zant can TK them.

Thats not teleport, thats pretty much the equivalent of Kains mist form, only its twilight based as you said. The second one does not seem like a teleport at all and more importantly he does it in Zeldas body. He seems to be able to do a few things, such as that blast of TK on Midna that we have not seen him do by himself, or at least I have not.

The instant one is the same one he uses in other zelda games, just appearing and disappearing without any flashes. Zelda's never done any of that stuff, but she does use some of Ganondorf's signature attacks.

Not quite.

Nice evidence 👆

Thats the very point of the Elder God, he is responsibel for the wheel of fate. The birth, death and rebirth of life in the universe...its how he survives.

Yeah, once they're dead. Prove he can do it to anyone still alive and this might be worth something.

You could not prove the water was even in the water temple and this post outlines how you dont know where that place Zant ports to is alike to it. We cant see the simularities.

I did prove the water wasn't in the water temple, so he can't have teleported there. He obviously created it as I said.

Your next few posts are not directed at you and you have taken them out of context, the argument is that those powers have been proven, how relevant they are to this thread is unimportant to that argument 😉

K', just as long as you stick with Defiance.

Possessed by whom? you really think any of these characters are going to turn into twilight and reach Kain without having their spirits (without physical forms protecting them) reaved, what a joke. Zant cannot harm Kain, said this.

Ganondorf, and he's fast enough to do so that way. I don't know why you're talking about spirits when Ganondorf will be a cloud of twiligh a la mist form.

Has Zant done this outside the twilight realm to something other than a Twili (is that the name of his race? cant remember)?

Yeah, it's Twili, and yes, by transforming Link after the Lanayru episode.

I forgot that piece of evidence, thanks for helping me out. Soldiers walk throughout that twilight and are unharmed, seems it cannot morph or harm "anyone" afterall which is evidence as he would have used twilight solely and would not need an army.

Wow. I...I have no words for this...

Except that it an utterly ridiculous amount of reaching that ignores and disregards all evidence.

There were no Shadow Beasts until the twilight cloud. There were no sounds of battle that came from the cloud. No screams or anything, either. And then Shadow Beasts start to come out from the exact spot the soldiers were standing. And the number of soldiers is obviously reduced; they aren't even there anymore. And then Zant comes through the door with two Shadow Beasts that do not even slightly resemble those that came out of the cloud. Are you telling me you aren't connectin' these dots?

Not really, its just like any weakness, its "more effective" than a typical weapon or object but thats about it and protection? theres no proof of this, so far youve shown me it can reflect little bolts from Ganon and after a long charge up can reverse a transformation....

Yes, but you're still underestimating the effect. And if you can't see how Link is protected after all this, you are lying to yourself.

gameplay mechanics....and thats still not impressive so I dont know why you mentioned it.

Because it's a rather large difference. The Master Sword cuts darkness like it isn't there, and no one on LoK wants to be on the wrong side of it.

I have posted it so many times before, the Elder God as a physical entity is pretty basic so asking for proof of its strength is like asking for proof of Cronos' from God of war whos size alone affords him strength. Also I am not trying to claim something reaching and ambigious like your claims of protection and reality warping 🙄

You have posted nothing that proves the Elder God has any strength. Cronos has strength feats while Elder God does not. This is just as ambiguous, and you don't even have a scene to use as evidence.

Its still fallible because its an out of hand statement not necesserily refering to literal truth, and their Gods are apprently "sols", or better described as tiny orbs of light....

The gods transferred the power of the sols to the Master Sword, increasing the already impressive offensive and defensive abilities. How you don't see this I will never know.

😆 no youve tried to assume that Midna using any Tk including her own levitating just happens to be "in the tonnes", its another huge reach for the LoZ side. Wolf Link strong, based on what? being pushed along by a Ganon braced by a Midna who is actually based on feats strong?

I see you still haven't been paying attention. All of this has already been proven.

A wolf...thats a divine beast?

Very good! 👆

Youve shown evidence that twilight does not necesserily transform, mere human soldiers were bathed in it and the shadow beasts were required to crush them. its also outlined in that video that he required to beat Zelda, it seems the will of a leader must protect the planet in some form. Lok are beyond peasants and normal soldiers (well...those who are not sarafan anyway).

Ridiculous failed reaching attempt.

No limit fallacy, LoK are beyond normal peasants who were simply taken into twilight. All it takes to push back twilight seems to be light, hence why the MS needed the sols, and the regions require light spirits, LoK has light in the many folds. Also you would not want to turn vampires into souls without physical forms, they are more powerful and gain more power besides as Dumah points out.

But they don't have any defensive feats to protect them, so its a fallacy on your part to claim they're unaffected. They won't be able to affect the physical world, anyway, though they can still be affected.

(Post too long, to be continued...)

(...apologies for double post.)

This shows huge LoZ fanboyism almost on par with Screampaste, where are the feats that Shadowbeasts all have to be destroyed? also I have seen no reason to belive there are armies of them, on the contary Vampires as you may well know pass on their "dark gift" of vampirism as well so Shadows are not the only ones multiplying. The worst thing youve said in this forum is that EG is going to be overwhelmed? lol and is featless despite burrowd throghout the deep places of a planet and able to multiply and regenerate instantly? the EG can indeed solo this with simply burying of his foes.

Right. I forgot you will never play a Zelda game. In Twilight Princess, unless all the Shadow Beasts in an area are killed simutaneously, the last one will let out a screach that will revive the others. Ask Quanchi, he knows it's true. I've never seen a vampire pass on the dark gift, just Kain killing people. Prove they can do it with an sort of speed.

You still have yet to present anything on the Elder God that resembles evidence. If Kain can kill him by stabbing him in the eye, enough Shadow Beasts can do the same.

Tell that to mortanius and Moebius who are both of the circle of nine 😆 , also tell that to the 500 years Raziel covers in Defiance, the period Defiance is set in covers the future and the past so stop claiming desperate ignorance.

The hell does "claiming desperate ignorance" mean?

Also, congrats on getting two out nine on the circle, I'm sure they can still take on the trueforce with less than a fourth of their number. /sarcasm

He can teleport sure, warp reality and kill anyone? no....the circle of nine are closer to warping reality.

I believe six of them are dead, however.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ever met a shadow beast?
Lol? He was far more powerful than Midna, he needed her power to shatter the mirror because "only" the leader of the Twili can do that, and he wasn't really their leader.
You mean when he assaults the castle and the knights of Hyrule, when the soldiers are all already done with? Where did those Shadowbeasts come from, eh?
Midna is more powerful than any vampire I've seen in LoK and he changed her into an imp with the wave of a hand. haermm He could change anyone he wanted from LoK.

Yes, he needed someone else because he's not even a true leader his people rejected him.

Yes, with an army of his own. He didn't beat them on his own. we have seen how pathetic hyrule's defenses were. I have never seen a more pathetic resistance ever.

How is Midna more powerful than any vampire? Di dyou miss out on Kain, Janos, Vorador, Turel, etc.?

I mean she failed utterly and miserably in her task an dneeded Link to save the day.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Canonically he does not seem to be harmed by Link, only "beaten", the feats were still incredibly poor. And he was not "wrecking", anyone, why do you keep saying that, this does not prove he can survive a few arrows...

Zant previously wrecked midna and Link with minor effort in the game.

You haven't proven a few arrows can best him. If you played the game you'd realize this guy takes more than an arrow to defeat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you don't have one instance?

Everyone who is turned into a Shadow Beast is mindless. I already posted the relevant video.

YouTube video

Soldiers covered by cloud.
No screams/fighting sounds.
Shadow Beasts emerge from cloud where soldiers were.
Zant has two Shadow Beasts that do not resemble others.
No bodies when Zant walked where the cloud/soldiers were.

Option 1: Twilight Cloud instantly vapourized soldiers, armor and all.
Option 2: Twilight Cloud transformed soldiers into Shadow Beasts.

Yes, he needed someone else because he's not even a true leader his people rejected him.

Or rather, he's using Ganondorf's magic instead of the traditional Twili magic. Only Twili magic could break the mirror, even though Ganondorf's magic is obviously above theirs.

Yes, with an army of his own. He didn't beat them on his own. we have seen how pathetic hyrule's defenses were. I have never seen a more pathetic resistance ever.

They were outclassed in pretty much every way. Still, at least those guys weren't cowards and their ghosts were very helpful.

How is Midna more powerful than any vampire? Di dyou miss out on Kain, Janos, Vorador, Turel, etc.?

Midna + Fused Shadows is pretty darn powerful. She has TK measured in the tons and exploded Zant with a mere fraction of the Fused Shadows.

I mean she failed utterly and miserably in her task an dneeded Link to save the day. If you are beaten you are harmed. How else do you beat someone if you don't harm them? I mean wtf.

Yeah, she did fail. Broke that barrier around Hyrule Castle and removed Ganondorf from Zelda's body, though, which was nice.

I don't know why he thinks Zant was unharmed. Probably lack of visible damage.

Zant previously wrecked midna and Link with minor effort in the game.

Zant is awesome.

You haven't proven a few arrows can best him. If you played the game you'd realize this guy takes more than an arrow to defeat.

/agree

But he doesn't have many defensive feats, I admit. Unless you count catching Wolf Link mid leap and his general wow-this-dude-is-freaking-fast.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Everyone who is turned into a Shadow Beast is mindless. I already posted the relevant video.

YouTube video

Soldiers covered by cloud.
No screams/fighting sounds.
Shadow Beasts emerge from cloud where soldiers were.
Zant has two Shadow Beasts that do not resemble others.
No bodies when Zant walked where the cloud/soldiers were.

Option 1: Twilight Cloud instantly vapourized soldiers, armor and all.
Option 2: Twilight Cloud transformed soldiers into Shadow Beasts.

Or rather, he's using Ganondorf's magic instead of the traditional Twili magic. Only Twili magic could break the mirror, even though Ganondorf's magic is obviously above theirs.

They were outclassed in pretty much every way. Still, at least those guys weren't cowards and their ghosts were very helpful.

Midna + Fused Shadows is pretty darn powerful. She has TK measured in the tons and exploded Zant with a mere fraction of the Fused Shadows.

Yeah, she did fail. Broke that barrier around Hyrule Castle and removed Ganondorf from Zelda's body, though, which was nice.

I don't know why he thinks Zant was unharmed. Probably lack of visible damage.

Zant is awesome.

/agree

But he doesn't have many defensive feats, I admit. Unless you count catching Wolf Link mid leap and his general wow-this-dude-is-freaking-fast.

Option 3:The shadow beats came along in the cloud and defeated the troops there. They then accompanied Zant.

So even Ganondrof's magic has limits. I like what you did here, sport.

By an onslaught of shadow beasts. Yeah, I can't recall an army from recent memory that went down this quickly against pure grunts.

I think she's ok and rather powerful but when you put someone like Kain against her he is coming out on top just like Ganondorf did.

She also gets cast aside pretty easily by Zelda as his puppet iirc.

He also claimed Kain wasn't beat up when it took him one hundred years after his loss to sarafan Lord. How else would you lose a fight if you weren't injured?

Originally posted by quanchi112

Option 3:The shadow beats came along in the cloud and defeated the troops there. They then accompanied Zant.

Too quick, even for Hylian soldiers. You can see it took a little longer, and was much louder, for the soldiers outside the cloud. There's no scream of pain/battle cry or anything, and the Shadow Beasts run through the cloud like there was nothing there. Again, not even bodies when Zant walks through the space where they were, and there are a few bodies in other places. Whereas outside the cloud, we see and hear men screaming and the clink of Shadow Beasts smashing their armor.

Had the Shadow Beasts first defeated the soldiers, we would have heard it, like when we heard as well as saw the other soldiers defeated.

Then Zant comes through the door with two Shadow Beasts with shiny round faces, instead of the usual black and gnarled, indicating a different type. They have a different symbol, too, and lack tentacles. Later, Barnes confirms that humans can be tranformed into Shadow Beasts, and since the tentacled ugly ones are the only ones found in Kakariko, it can be concluded that that type is the former human type. The shiny non tentacle is likely the former Twili or was created.

Most likely conclusion looks to be a mass polymorph.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Too quick, even for Hylian soldiers. You can see it took a little longer, and was much louder, for the soldiers outside the cloud. There's no scream of pain/battle cry or anything, and the Shadow Beasts run through the cloud like there was nothing there. Again, not even bodies when Zant walks through the space where they were, and there are a few bodies in other places. Whereas outside the cloud, we see and hear men screaming and the clink of Shadow Beasts smashing their armor.

Had the Shadow Beasts first defeated the soldiers, we would have heard it, like when we heard as well as saw the other soldiers defeated.

Then Zant comes through the door with two Shadow Beasts with shiny round faces, instead of the usual black and gnarled, indicating a different type. They have a different symbol, too, and lack tentacles. Later, Barnes confirms that humans can be tranformed into Shadow Beasts, and since the tentacled ugly ones are the only ones found in Kakariko, it can be concluded that that type is the former human type. The shiny non tentacle is likely the former Twili or was created.

Most likely conclusion looks to be a mass polymorph.

I don't dispute normal humans can be turned into them but to assume Zant shows up and turns all of the loz characters into shadow beats is unsupportable. That's like claiming something you can't prove because they have defenses and magic in their arsenal and aren't just normal human beings in coats of armor.

The tactic isn't allowed just like the eg isn't allowed to keep rezzing loz's entire forces.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Thats pretty much what I said to you several times in my last post, dont try and mimic me to sound like your debating this with any tact, trying to copy my tact against me makes you look worse than you did before. And the fact they affect Zant and all hes doing is copying almost perfectly some of the environments you face previously is fact their not reality warping, otherwise he would make himself immune to a lot of the environments or remove , my suggestion makes less assumptions and illogical nonsense than yours.

It would be nice if you actually argued the point, but nah thats beyond the LoZ lovers is it not? ofc it is! hence why these arguments go nowhere, its either teleportation or an illusion, no reality warping is evident.

No their not, theres no arena evident.

No it doesnt, not in reality just in gameplay, I think its only canon that fledlings and young vampires die quickly. But for Raziel, it takes so long for him to dissolve that "time ceases to exist".

No, the Elder God revived him as a wraith hence the "total dissolution" part. Theres no evidence to say he somehow protected Raziels body and the fact Raziel burns just like any vampire when he falls into the abyss kinda nullifies your theory. Also your shooting yourself in the foot because if the EG can protect entities from water it nullifies your point again.....dont be daft and ignorant in the same post please?

Peasants only, a few soldiers get completly smothered in twilight in that very scene and it requires shadow beasts to take them down. Also thats a good point, the light spirits are present in this battle, so no twilight will be called upon anyway.

The "warp" or "illusion" takes 5 seconds, and behind who? this is an army were talking about so the idea no one is going to notice that Zant has teleported is BS, its like me saying Kain teleports behind Zant and Ganondorf and kills them each in a strike without anyone realising. Zant even makes noises and incantations in that slow 5 seconds, it would take hardly any time to turn and shred him in arrows, thats Zant gone lol...

Show me these "other" Zelda games, and its not instant as you can see him disapear and it takes a few second before he appears again, whatever he did it does not look like any teleport.

Why would I find evidence to counter something as much filled with fanon and illogical nonsense as your post? this point is ridiculous.

I dont recall saying he can do it to entities still alive, he does it to the spirit. Your a fan of claiming the MS makes its own mind up based on its universe' perception of evil of how effective it is against evil so I will simply point out that to the Elder God, unfleshed souls are his food, considering any entity in the form of twilight or without a body like Ganon is at often times is fair game.

He obviously teleported somehwere else as the area does not look like the Water temple OR he made a clever illusion. Kinda like how sephiroth did, Zants never shown creationalist abilities and neither has Ganon to this degree.

The only barrier for a soul reave is flesh, unless you can prove has some physical protective qualaties then anyone in twilight form has their soul bare. Hes not fast at all, in twilight form he took a good few seconds to reahc Zelda a few meters up 🙄

With a crystal to the head if iirc, he did not just gesture. Further proof he cannot transform anyone on a whim.

Disregards all evidence, evidence such as Soldiers running throughout the twilight Cloud and not being harmed in the least? you cannot prove that those soldiers turned into shadowbeasts from that scene and its unlikely as I said because soldiers were in the twiligt after without any harm, shadowbeasts were required. And stop overusing "reaching", its something I used a few times against you, that does not mean you have to use it in every argument like a kid with a new word...

Ok you did not argue how I am underestimating it...go and find reasons. Protected? theres no scene thus shown in this thread of Link being protected, only that it can reverse a minor transformation.

No one in LoK? their not going to be phased by a kid striking at them with a little sword which is nigh featless, their not even evil , a kid who will be killed like I said by a few arrows or an Elder God tentacle.

Yes because a continent sized entity that cleaves through rock while attacking Raziel, can bury temples and burrow into the deepest places of the world has not a pound of strength. Keep reaching...

You mean Link did by absorbing them, your not argueing this your just claiming based on opinion.

Nope, never been proven.

I lold, a flea bitten mongrel is their divine beast? considering the low scale of power in LoZ its not unlikely.

Again, using your new word without argument? you even used it wrongly here, claiming against evidence thats clearly shown and ignoring your no limit fallacy is not reaching boyo!

Surprisingly Kain has immunity to real reality warping form the council in his weakest form, and further nobody is going to harmed on the loK side by something that cannot transform basic soldiers.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Right. I forgot you will never play a Zelda game. In Twilight Princess, unless all the Shadow Beasts in an area are killed simutaneously, the last one will let out a screach that will revive the others. Ask Quanchi, he knows it's true. I've never seen a vampire pass on the dark gift, just Kain killing people. Prove they can do it with an sort of speed.

You still have yet to present anything on the Elder God that resembles evidence. If Kain can kill him by stabbing him in the eye, enough Shadow Beasts can do the same.

The hell does "claiming desperate ignorance" mean?

Also, congrats on getting two out nine on the circle, I'm sure they can still take on the trueforce with less than a fourth of their number. /sarcasm

I believe six of them are dead, however.

Show me, I should not have to ask someone else, I should see it before me...Kains got a weapon stronger than any in LoZ and you try and bring up a few shadow beasts? i lold...again, I seem to be doing this a lot in your reply.

I sort of meant to say your ignorant and are claiming random BS desperatly but it came out wrong, my bad.

Considering 3 weak circle members managed to create the reality warp that is dark Eden, a couple of power ones should be no problem and moebius with his nigh omnicience and Mortanius with soul powers are perhaps the strongest forces in the circle. And you forget that mortanius is around at the same time as the other circle members, Mortanius is among the cirlce at the time of Ancaranothe and Dejoule.

It required 3 to create an expanding dome that covered a large region, warping everything beneath. And 6 are dead by the end of Defiance, not the beginning, Mortanius is also dead by the end of Defiance, nice try though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you are beaten you are harmed. How else do you beat someone if you don't harm them? I mean wtf.

Zant previously wrecked midna and Link with minor effort in the game.

You haven't proven a few arrows can best him. If you played the game you'd realize this guy takes more than an arrow to defeat.

Ever heard of submission?

"wreck" as I said before meaning Tked and thrown about a bit? not impressive really when ones a tiny imp of no weight and the other is a young boy...

Ive seen the scenes where he is attacked in the game and so far, he has no feats to suggest he can survive arrows. Also I dont have to prove arrows can beast him, you have to prove he has resistance to arrows otherwise we can be at it all day claiming nobody can prove Kain will be bested by any LoZ weapon and likewise for all vampires.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Everyone who is turned into a Shadow Beast is mindless. I already posted the relevant video.

YouTube video

Soldiers covered by cloud.
No screams/fighting sounds.
Shadow Beasts emerge from cloud where soldiers were.
Zant has two Shadow Beasts that do not resemble others.
No bodies when Zant walked where the cloud/soldiers were.

Option 1: Twilight Cloud instantly vapourized soldiers, armor and all.
Option 2: Twilight Cloud transformed soldiers into Shadow Beasts.

Soldiers covered by cloud, far more shadowbeasts than soldiers previously run forth. We would not see the bodies, we see soldiers beaten up all over the place so what the hell are you talking about.

Also note 0:31, soldiers run through twilight, nothing happens until the Shadowbeasts are required to stop them. Beasts that take ages to strangle one man later on.....I lold 🙄

Option 1: nah, they just happen to be dead below the camera, not floating in the air.
Option 2: yeh, and mulitplied them into several beasts, despite 0:31 proving this is not the case.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats pretty much what I said to you several times in my last post, dont try and mimic me to sound like your debating this with any tact, trying to copy my tact against me makes you look worse than you did before. And the fact they affect Zant and all hes doing is copying almost perfectly some of the environments you face previously is fact their not reality warping, otherwise he would make himself immune to a lot of the environments or remove , my suggestion makes less assumptions and illogical nonsense than yours.

I'm mimicking you with a few personal touches of my own. Warping your posts, so to speak.

Hey, you know, that sounds a lot like what Zant is doing, warping those arenas. Also, good job on assuming Zant even could make himself immune when it isn't shown. What is shown, however, is that these areas are real enough to affect both combatants, which disproves illusions, and they are slightly different from the originals, which disproves a teleport.

All that's left is reality warping. But, I suppose that is too "strong" a term. Maybe if you called it a creation feat or a transformation feat (Zant transforms things a lot, after all) then it might be easier to accept. Still, Zant is transforming the area around him, making it larger, smaller, and filling it with water or acid.

It would be nice if you actually argued the point, but nah thats beyond the LoZ lovers is it not? ofc it is! hence why these arguments go nowhere, its either teleportation or an illusion, no reality warping is evident.

That's probably because I had already argued the point on the paragraph directly above and didn't want to do it again. And probably because I knew you'd ignore the point anyway. Both teleportation and illusion have been ruled out by the evidence, and transformation is highly evident.

No their not, theres no arena evident.

Would be nice if you actually argued the the point, but nah...

ect. There is plenty of evidence. For one, it cannot be a teleport because Morpheel's arena was drained of water. Second, it resembles the arena very closely, with a few of Zant's personal touches. You are trying to argue that Zant teleported to an area that does not exist.

No it doesnt, not in reality just in gameplay, I think its only canon that fledlings and young vampires die quickly. But for Raziel, it takes so long for him to dissolve that "time ceases to exist".

YouTube video

2:17 "Immersion in water, while not fatal, will dissolve your physical body, forcing your return to the spirit world."

YouTube video

5:20 "While it is life giving to humans, water is deadly to vampires. Its touch burns our skin, and immersion in water can kill us. Avoid it all costs."

It took so long for Raziel because Raziel was protected at the time.

No, the Elder God revived him as a wraith hence the "total dissolution" part. Theres no evidence to say he somehow protected Raziels body and the fact Raziel burns just like any vampire when he falls into the abyss kinda nullifies your theory. Also your shooting yourself in the foot because if the EG can protect entities from water it nullifies your point again.....dont be daft and ignorant in the same post please?

"I have only spared you from total dissolution."

That is very difficult to argue against. The Elder God actually comes out and says that he protected Raziel. He revived him as a wraith, hence the "you are reborn," part. Raziel burns, but does does not suffer "total dissolution," as the Elder God said, which disproves your theory.

Now then, please prove that the Elder God can protect multiple vampires at once. Even when they have protection, Zant's going to have a bunch of half dead unconcious vampires on his hands to destroy at any time, please pay attention.

Peasants only, a few soldiers get completly smothered in twilight in that very scene and it requires shadow beasts to take them down. Also thats a good point, the light spirits are present in this battle, so no twilight will be called upon anyway.

The Shadow Beasts were only required because he didn't hit all of them with the transformation cloud. There are no Light Spirits on the LoK side, so nothing protects them from it. Again, Zant can call up a cloud despite the Light Spirits, so denied there, too.

The "warp" or "illusion" takes 5 seconds, and behind who? this is an army were talking about so the idea no one is going to notice that Zant has teleported is BS, its like me saying Kain teleports behind Zant and Ganondorf and kills them each in a strike without anyone realising. Zant even makes noises and incantations in that slow 5 seconds, it would take hardly any time to turn and shred him in arrows, thats Zant gone lol...

You ever seen a group of more than 10 people try to turn around quickly? The word clustercuss comes to mind. Further, you are assuming that all the soldiers will be perparing to shoot Zant despite the fact they have other worries. Can you prove that they can turn around, put away whatever melee weapon they have out, pull out a bow, and fire in less than 5 seconds? Why would they have melee weapons? Well, they're kind of fighting another army as well as the Shadow Beasts, for example.

Show me these "other" Zelda games, and its not instant as you can see him disapear and it takes a few second before he appears again, whatever he did it does not look like any teleport.

Why bother? It's Twilight Princess only and you'll just ignore it because it's Twilight Princess only. Regardless, he's shown the power, so he has it. And what are you talking about? Ganondorf just appeared out of nowhere, unless you mean Zant, in which case his teleport just looks different.

Why would I find evidence to counter something as much filled with fanon and illogical nonsense as your post? this point is ridiculous.

Because the burden of proof is on you to prove that Kain's teleport is faster than Zant or Ganondorf's, and you have yet to actually do so. I doubt you even remembered what this point was about, and so assume it was illogical. Nice.

I dont recall saying he can do it to entities still alive, he does it to the spirit. Your a fan of claiming the MS makes its own mind up based on its universe' perception of evil of how effective it is against evil so I will simply point out that to the Elder God, unfleshed souls are his food, considering any entity in the form of twilight or without a body like Ganon is at often times is fair game.

So can you prove he can take one that is still able to defend itself?

He obviously teleported somehwere else as the area does not look like the Water temple OR he made a clever illusion. Kinda like how sephiroth did, Zants never shown creationalist abilities and neither has Ganon to this degree.

"He's never done this feat before, therefore he can't even though he's doing it right now."

Teleport- disproved above.
Illusion- disproved above.

The only barrier for a soul reave is flesh, unless you can prove has some physical protective qualaties then anyone in twilight form has their soul bare. Hes not fast at all, in twilight form he took a good few seconds to reahc Zelda a few meters up 🙄

It's called the Triforce of Power, and I doubt that particle thing is his soul. And unlike LoK, it looks like souls in Zelda are still alive and can defend themselves.

With a crystal to the head if iirc, he did not just gesture. Further proof he cannot transform anyone on a whim.

Yeah, Zant obviously has several different ways of transforming things. That's kind of his area, transformation. He also turned Link into a wolf by calling twilight, just like he transformed those soldiers. Your proof consists of nothing but, "he didn't, therefore he can't." Except for the fact that he did transform Midna by waving his hand.

Disregards all evidence, evidence such as Soldiers running throughout the twilight Cloud and not being harmed in the least? you cannot prove that those soldiers turned into shadowbeasts from that scene and its unlikely as I said because soldiers were in the twiligt after without any harm, shadowbeasts were required. And stop overusing "reaching", its something I used a few times against you, that does not mean you have to use it in every argument like a kid with a new word...

No soldiers ran through that cloud, or are you reaching again? A few got close, but they got hit by Shadow Beasts before they actually touched it. You can tell in the way that they're still visible. Now you're the one ignoring evidence again. The Shadow Beasts defeated the soldiers instantly and with no sound, but immediately started making noise and slowed down when they attacked visible soldiers? Sounds like you're reaching, there.

Ok you did not argue how I am underestimating it...go and find reasons. Protected? theres no scene thus shown in this thread of Link being protected, only that it can reverse a minor transformation.

Three videos. Already posted. Watch them.

No one in LoK? their not going to be phased by a kid striking at them with a little sword which is nigh featless, their not even evil , a kid who will be killed like I said by a few arrows or an Elder God tentacle.

Who's that? The only kid with a little sword that I can think of is Colin, but I know for a fact Link won't let anyone touch him. That guy's got the Master Sword, after all.

Yes because a continent sized entity that cleaves through rock while attacking Raziel, can bury temples and burrow into the deepest places of the world has not a pound of strength. Keep reaching...

Cleaves rock with a tentacle, there we go. Any other evidence or are you still assuming based on size alone? I mean, just because he's big doesn't mean he's strong. That sounds like reaching.

You mean Link did by absorbing them, your not argueing this your just claiming based on opinion.

What opinion? This isn't a choice, it's a fact that the guardian dieties of Twilight Realm added the Sols to the Master Sword.

Nope, never been proven.

Ignoring proof =/= never proven.

I lold, a flea bitten mongrel is their divine beast? considering the low scale of power in LoZ its not unlikely.

See, this right here? This is why you fail. Circular logic and blatant disregard for pretty much everything. And reaching.

Again, using your new word without argument? you even used it wrongly here, claiming against evidence thats clearly shown and ignoring your no limit fallacy is not reaching boyo!

The soldiers that fought the Shadow Beasts never entered the cloud. Claiming they did is just reaching.

Claiming that Zelda protects the planet is just really odd reaching.

Surprisingly Kain has immunity to real reality warping form the council in his weakest form, and further nobody is going to harmed on the loK side by something that cannot transform basic soldiers.

Cool, Kain can maybe avoid being warped. Too bad he still dies in Zant's real water. Again, reaching with the soldiers.

Show me, I should not have to ask someone else, I should see it before me...Kains got a weapon stronger than any in LoZ and you try and bring up a few shadow beasts? i lold...again, I seem to be doing this a lot in your reply.

YouTube video

0:15-1:20

Considering 3 weak circle members managed to create the reality warp that is dark Eden, a couple of power ones should be no problem and moebius with his nigh omnicience and Mortanius with soul powers are perhaps the strongest forces in the circle. And you forget that mortanius is around at the same time as the other circle members, Mortanius is among the cirlce at the time of Ancaranothe and Dejoule.

k'

It required 3 to create an expanding dome that covered a large region, warping everything beneath. And 6 are dead by the end of Defiance, not the beginning, Mortanius is also dead by the end of Defiance, nice try though.

k', what's this mean, then?

Soldiers covered by cloud, far more shadowbeasts than soldiers previously run forth. We would not see the bodies, we see soldiers beaten up all over the place so what the hell are you talking about.

YouTube video

0:10, I count about 9-10 soldiers standing on the blue area.

0:25, I count 8 Shadow Beasts emerging, though the screen cuts away very quickly.

We do not see any bodies laying on the blue area where the soldiers where. We can see a few on the stairs and Shadow Beasts strangling a few, but none where they would be if they were killed instantly and silently.

Also note 0:31, soldiers run through twilight, nothing happens until the Shadowbeasts are required to stop them. Beasts that take ages to strangle one man later on.....I lold 🙄

Note 0:31, where a single soldiers gets knocked down before he even touches the cloud.

Option 1: nah, they just happen to be dead below the camera, not floating in the air.

Zant walks right through where the were with the camera on his feet. There weren't bodies.

Option 2: yeh, and mulitplied them into several beasts, despite 0:31 proving this is not the case.

Looks like you're reaching, though, since none of that happened

Scenario does work. So yeah, Zant soloes?

Originally posted by The Scenario

Yes I thought you were trying to, you did it poorly so trying to steal logic and credability from me will show your lacking in both, like the rest of your original posts.

Hes not "warped" anything, their just the same as before even down to the broken platform they never touch left behind after the platform broke away. It does not disprove illusions so I dont know why you said that, that actually disproves that Zant created this or has any control whatsoever over said environments, it just looks like Zant has entered Links memories of these areas and mimics the bosses, hence why he can still be harmed. what differences? youve yet to show them...take Dangaroos level for example, it looks similiar to when he fights Link..

No theres no reality warping lol, nothing alike to changing reality and transforming. No creation either.

Ive argued all these points continually across this forum and yet you want me to keep repeating myself, theres no reason why you cannot do the same.

I did, the point was that its not morpheels level and the argument is that its because theres no likeness to the level....water being there still being one reason.

Does not exist? we can see it exists so......obviously not. Morpheels level is brighter and we can see the stone and pillars that made it, Zants level looks nothing like it, it just looks like a water basin as if he just appeared on the seabed.

Youve found vids of things we already know, we know that eventually vampires dissolve in water, Raziel proves it takes years.

Again, we know this....

Nothing evident in that theory, the Elder God is never stated to have protected him hence why Raziel is tumbling and burning with white hot fire.

Yes, he spared him from death and made him a wraith unlike allowing him to dissolve after those years and cease to exist like normal vampires. Zant cannot harm vampires, illusions and reality warp are still unfounded so it is you who needs to pay attension to your own evidence and lessen to hype please?

Who says they have to be on the loK side? since when did "sides" have anything to do with it? and the cloud touched many soldiers at the areas I ponnted out, touched them and did nothing 😉

Yes because the Sarafan do not have soldiers who are primarily archers like we see throughout the games...stop trying to allow Zant to avoid quick death by pulling stupid reasons from your ass.

We dont actually see him appear out of nowhere, Link was covering where Ganon ported in, a second or so covered it.

I have proven it, the amount of times I have posted all these teleports is ridiculous, theres even a respect thread full of them.

If you can prove this entity can protect its soul from the Elder Gods "wheel of fate" then go ahead 🙄

Originally posted by The Scenario
"He's never done this feat before, therefore he can't even though he's doing it right now."

Teleport- disproved above.
Illusion- disproved above.

It's called the Triforce of Power, and I doubt that particle thing is his soul. And unlike LoK, it looks like souls in Zelda are still alive and can defend themselves.

Yeah, Zant obviously has several different ways of transforming things. That's kind of his area, transformation. He also turned Link into a wolf by calling twilight, just like he transformed those soldiers. Your proof consists of nothing but, "he didn't, therefore he can't." Except for the fact that he did transform Midna by waving his hand.

No soldiers ran through that cloud, or are you reaching again? A few got close, but they got hit by Shadow Beasts before they actually touched it. You can tell in the way that they're still visible. Now you're the one ignoring evidence again. The Shadow Beasts defeated the soldiers instantly and with no sound, but immediately started making noise and slowed down when they attacked visible soldiers? Sounds like you're reaching, there.

Three videos. Already posted. Watch them.

Who's that? The only kid with a little sword that I can think of is Colin, but I know for a fact Link won't let anyone touch him. That guy's got the Master Sword, after all.

Cleaves rock with a tentacle, there we go. Any other evidence or are you still assuming based on size alone? I mean, just because he's big doesn't mean he's strong. That sounds like reaching.

What opinion? This isn't a choice, it's a fact that the guardian dieties of Twilight Realm added the Sols to the Master Sword.

Ignoring proof =/= never proven.

See, this right here? This is why you fail. Circular logic and blatant disregard for pretty much everything. And reaching.

The soldiers that fought the Shadow Beasts never entered the cloud. Claiming they did is just reaching.

Claiming that Zelda protects the planet is just really odd reaching.

Cool, Kain can maybe avoid being warped. Too bad he still dies in Zant's real water. Again, reaching with the soldiers.

YouTube video

0:15-1:20

k'

k', what's this mean, then?

YouTube video

0:10, I count about 9-10 soldiers standing on the blue area.

0:25, I count 8 Shadow Beasts emerging, though the screen cuts away very quickly.

We do not see any bodies laying on the blue area where the soldiers where. We can see a few on the stairs and Shadow Beasts strangling a few, but none where they would be if they were killed instantly and silently.

Note 0:31, where a single soldiers gets knocked down before he even touches the cloud.

Zant walks right through where the were with the camera on his feet. There weren't bodies.

Looks like you're reaching, though, since none of that happened

Nah, not disproven. To you apprently it makes sense that Zant has these incredible powers of creation yet has never done anything like it, nor has Ganon despite it being more powerful than anything they have done throughout their series, tiny blasts and teleporting/TK blasts included (I lold) and furthermore decides to warp the environments not only to areas almost identicle to those seen previous (where link was also victorious) but creates the weaknesses and dangers the entities in those levels were weak to....what a joke...

Teleport is still the most likely, although illusion is coming close hence why Zant cannot make the level match his desires and has to stick closely to what Link has already seen.

Yes because the slaugh, vampire wraiths, Raziel and reapers cant defend themselves...despite being spirital entities in the spectral realm. Also "defend themselves"? in what way?

No, he has one way of transforming those in hyrule and another for transforming another twili.

Yes they did, I even outlined the time where the cloud covered them only for beasts to strike them down, seems like your ignoring your own evidence.

Not good enough, quote them otherwise I may as well just quote your name and say "go and find evidence elseware in the forum" as I have throttled most of these points previously.

Links not going to have much of a choice, the sword will be shattered by the EG or Kain or just Tked from his hands and tossed aside where he will be killed by a few humans with swords.

Yes it does, size and muscle and physical prowess condones strength based on size. Cleaving through rock throughout the planet and bearing the upper world pushing down on his body is beyond any feat in LoZ millions fold. Combine that with the fact he has countless billions of tentacles that reform and mulitply and we have a buried hyrule 😄

I fail because I do not describe a wolf as a "divine beast"? 😆 you fail because you blunder about throwing no limit fallacies and not really argueing your points, you set up fallacy after fallacy, straw mans, no limits, sometimes bandwagon and appeal to audiance in the past.

Your using your new word it seems even when its not supposed ot be placed in this sentence.

Kains not going to sit in water for years thanks, I would like to see you argue how Zants pulling off his slow 5 second illusion to bother anyone when Kains already killed him in a fraction of 1 second...him, Ganon and Link while the Elder God buries the rest of TP and the other Zelda verses for lulz.

😆 thats a good one, i thought you meant bring them back from nothing, I was imaginig shadowbeasts being disintegrated and reforming from screeches, not just collapsing on the floor and getting up again after being hit by a blunt shock from a little wolf....this is not going to help them at all, its a useless feat.
Show me them reforming like this after being cut into piecies.

It means the full circle are present in the series throughout Defiance at some point or another, therefore a reality warping field can be created that will expand and cover the battlefield, warping the hyrule army (and the environment itself). And before you do something childish like whine about how its apprently an illusion just because Zants is, they create real feats of warped reality such as rain turning to fire and trees and the dead forming to create other monsters among other things.

Ok, then I concede they were not killed instantly and silently, they somehow ended up all over the place, being strangled and on the steps dead...is there evidence outside of this video that twilight turns men into shadow beasts?

He is already in the cloud at 0.31, theres even streams of twilight coming off around 0:26 when the soldiers are running in.

yet there were soldiers being strangled and tossed about the steps.

Teleportation is impossible, BT. Zant refilled the room with Water and rebuilt the walls of Ice that were emptied and destroyed during the boss fights.

Show me the simularities between the two arenas? Zant refilled the room? how? dont recall him having water powers

Similarities? Did you really just say that? XD You thought he teleported to the room a moment ago. They're the same, except that against Blizzeta the arena went back to being a normal bedroom when Link won, and killing Morpheel made him crash into the wall and completely drain the huge room of water.

And that's the point, Zant doesn't have water powers, he warped reality.

He cant warp reality thats just an overwank like most LoZ crap from you and your fanbase, mimcicing an area is not "warping reality" and in this case illusion is more likely. Zant cannot create to this degree otherwise he is more powerful than Ganondorf or the trueforce (hes really not though!) whos measly power consists of far lower scale.

Perhaps the Sephiroth lovers are right, Sephiroth wipes out the solarsystem every time he uses Supernova and warps reality to reform the solarsystem again! zomg!!

no but really, random illusions, overwanking does not make reality warping.

I notice you failed to address the evidence at all. How much longer will you be in blatant denial? I have appointments to keep, you know.

BT, if it was an illusion, then how do you explain the change in physics, such as the need to breathe underwater, or swim? Are you saying that this all took place in Link's mind?

Theres no evidence supporting your claim tbh. Youve just decided Zant can reality warp based solely on what? the fact he fights Link in a room full of water? lol...

Youve not read previous posts where I pointed out the area Zant teleports to is not alike to Morpheels, just watched the fights against both back to back, Morpheels is lighter, is filled with pillars and walls etc. Zants is just a dark seabed by the looks of it.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
BT, if it was an illusion, then how do you explain the change in physics, such as the need to breathe underwater, or swim? Are you saying that this all took place in Link's mind?

Illusion/mental projection more evident. Zant is simply using resources Link already has seen down to details such as actual boss tactics.

If he were a real reality warper, he would have changed the reality, certainly if he had any control over it, e.g. remove any of the negative elements. Ofc he could have just left Link in the water until he drowned or died of old age after years if he can breathe it through an item if Zant really has powers of creation. None of these long lists of things are evident.

Zant is killed by a few arrows anyway or one of the LoK teleports, or EG so its pretty irrelevant.

Well, the MS protects against psychic/spiritual/physical manipulation of the wielder, so it wasn't any kind of mind trick.

As for your analogy, you have forgotten that Link could teleport with Midna's help, so that tactic wouldn't work anyway.