Originally posted by The Scenario
More delicious irony. 🙄 If you don't want to address my points, I accept you concession.No, I ruled out illusion and teleportation. Teleportation was ruled out by differences in the arenas, and illusion was ruled out by Zant also being affected. You've yet to actually address that, just like my other points.
I already addressed everything in your posts that was worth replying to, but whatever...
Like this, it's pretty worthless as a point. Less than a second, and Ganondorf appeared from nowhere, so I don't see what you're getting at here. It's still a feat, and nothing you just said lessened it.
This, too. You seem to have forgotten about Link's protection and do not appear to even know what the Master Sword is. A nd then you claim Link is defeated by a few humans, which is utterly ridiculous.
Failed attempt at proving size = strength. We now know that Zant can change his size, by your logic this means he can just crush your precious archers, and defeat the Elder God, whose tentacles frankly aren't that big. Yeah, he might be huge (I haven't seen much evidence of this, however), but his tentacles, the things he uses to do anything, would be much smaller than a size changed Zant.
Now, I watched a few Defiance vids (particularly the final boss) and I'm not seeing what you describe as the Elder God. First off, not really as big as you're claiming. Second, he does not have billions of tentacles, and it looks like he can only actually use three at once. Third, the only area he even tried (and failed, looks like) to bury was already underground.
Then again, I'm not too good at finding evidence from games I haven't played. If you could actually back up some of this stuff, it might be pretty helpful.
Ironic that you and a lot of other LoZ supporters have to result to "NO U!" arguments?
Youve not ruled out illusion at all, youve ruled out reality warping because its beyond the likes of LoZ, it would be equel if not greater than the trueforce even if its on a lesser scale and its not been displayed to work in Zants favour, no reality warper creates and mimics every weakness if their the ones supposed to be warping reality. Hes not really warped any reality, merely reformed in some form a previous event. The idea that hes simply copying what has happened to link from previous battles makes it certain hes making illusions, not recreating anything of any kind.
Maybe you should try and give reasons why Zant does not just re-create his own Zant run world instead of sitting in a throne and summoning the same old shadow beasts for his minions if he has the power to bend reality. I can think of a few reasons, one being theres no evidence to suggest hes warping anything the second is that he simply cant and this is a overhyped pile of BS common with LoZ fans on KMC.
Funny, I just said something similiar to you, stop copying and pasting my points plez?
We know Zant can appear to change his size at least to the same level as a previous boss. Perhaps as tall as an EG tentacle is long. Not that this would help his weak and vulnerable form against thousands if not millions of said tentacles that can burrow through rock, steel and ore throughout the planet against all kinds of gravitational pressure and rock density. Try digging in your garden to australia, it wont take you long before you find out theres notihng you can get your hands on to get deeper into the thicker and more dense mantle layers.
Youve watched the portion of the EG Kain faced and made the assumption this was the entirety? try watching Soul reaver 1 and 2, you will find the EG throughout or better yet just look at several defiance vids, hes quite common in raziels side of the story. You will find him in the ancient vampire sanctum, miles across the world from the pillar foundations we see him in later. Or you could just read the description of him on the LoK defiance website.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Ironic that you and a lot of other LoZ supporters have to result to "NO U!" arguments?
Not really. The irony comes in when you say something like this and then do the same thing seconds later.
Youve not ruled out illusion at all, youve ruled out reality warping because its beyond the likes of LoZ, it would be equel if not greater than the trueforce even if its on a lesser scale and its not been displayed to work in Zants favour, no reality warper creates and mimics every weakness if their the ones supposed to be warping reality. Hes not really warped any reality, merely reformed in some form a previous event. The idea that hes simply copying what has happened to link from previous battles makes it certain hes making illusions, not recreating anything of any kind.
It's not an illusion, period. Also, lol at your circular logic + false premise. "Legend of Zelda as a whole can't do this (false), therefore Zant can't do it (circular.)" Further, you assume that Zant is just any reality warper. If it makes you feel better, I could call it a creation feat, since he does that, too. The arena affects everyone in it, including Zant, which has proven it's not an illusion. What the hell the do you think an illusion is?
Maybe you should try and give reasons why Zant does not just re-create his own Zant run world instead of sitting in a throne and summoning the same old shadow beasts for his minions if he has the power to bend reality. I can think of a few reasons, one being theres no evidence to suggest hes warping anything the second is that he simply cant and this is a overhyped pile of BS common with LoZ fans on KMC.
CIS. If you hadn't noticed, Zant is freaking insane. And again, if it wouldn't offend you so much, just call it creation or transmutation. The fact remains that he main something into something else, and created several million gallons of water from nothing.
Funny, I just said something similiar to you, stop copying and pasting my points plez?
I don't know what you're referring to, here. If it was the general worthlessness of your previous post, which, by the way, still hasn't responded to my other points, then you're seeing something else.
We know Zant can appear to change his size at least to the same level as a previous boss. Perhaps as tall as an EG tentacle is long. Not that this would help his weak and vulnerable form against thousands if not millions of said tentacles that can burrow through rock, steel and ore throughout the planet against all kinds of gravitational pressure and rock density. Try digging in your garden to australia, it wont take you long before you find out theres notihng you can get your hands on to get deeper into the thicker and more dense mantle layers.
Lolno. Zant was quite a bit bigger than Blizzeta was.
As for the rest, evidence or get out.
Youve watched the portion of the EG Kain faced and made the assumption this was the entirety? try watching Soul reaver 1 and 2, you will find the EG throughout or better yet just look at several defiance vids, hes quite common in raziels side of the story. You will find him in the ancient vampire sanctum, miles across the world from the pillar foundations we see him in later. Or you could just read the description of him on the LoK defiance website.
Yes, I'm going to go watch several hours of Legacy of Kain videos to find something despite the fact that I have no idea where to look and you could just post the relevant evidence. To be honest, when I saw you had posted here I thought you'd finally found some actual evidence, but alas, you're just going to tell me to find some.
Besides, I wanted to start at the beginning:
YouTube video
1:06 "When rainfall comes, vampires are wise to find shelter from its acidic touch."
Originally posted by The Scenario
Not really. The irony comes in when you say something like this and then do the same thing seconds later.It's not an illusion, period. Also, lol at your circular logic + false premise. "Legend of Zelda as a whole can't do this (false), therefore Zant can't do it (circular.)" Further, you assume that Zant is just any reality warper. If it makes you feel better, I could call it a creation feat, since he does that, too. The arena affects everyone in it, including Zant, which has proven it's not an illusion. What the hell the do you think an illusion is?
CIS. If you hadn't noticed, Zant is freaking [b]insane
. And again, if it wouldn't offend you so much, just call it creation or transmutation. The fact remains that he main something into something else, and created several million gallons of water from nothing.I don't know what you're referring to, here. If it was the general worthlessness of your previous post, which, by the way, still hasn't responded to my other points, then you're seeing something else.
Lolno. Zant was quite a bit bigger than Blizzeta was.
As for the rest, evidence or get out.
Yes, I'm going to go watch several hours of Legacy of Kain videos to find something despite the fact that I have no idea where to look and you could just post the relevant evidence. To be honest, when I saw you had posted here I thought you'd finally found some actual evidence, but alas, you're just going to tell me to find some.
Besides, I wanted to start at the beginning:
YouTube video1:06 "When rainfall comes, vampires are wise to find shelter from its acidic touch." [/B]
You just did it again....
Its not an illusion period? thats as far as an argument goes and yet you belive that just because it apprently affects Zant its not an illusion? if it was warping reality he should have not been affected by it, this works both ways, if the guy could warp reality which he cant he would not have allowed it to harm himself because thats the reality.
Nobody throughout LoZ did anything like I just said, they have never created anything beyond a few minions without the trueforce and yet you claim Zant can warp reality itself and create things from nothing, including things to harm himself. Where are you getting this "several million" nonsense from?
You did it again....
Provided evidence already, from all the sources I just previously stated so I think you should go back and read through a few more of my posts.
I just told you where to look and I have posted these videos more than once.
Kain gains immunity to rainfall. And acid is not a "zomg instant death!" to an entity, certainly not one who can heal almost instantly from almost any wound. its no wonder it takes years for a submerged Raziel to die.
Yeah, because we all know that Link has never dealt with teleportation (on multiple planes) before... 🙄
You know that even phantom Zant has good teleportation ability, right?
Link has not only dealt with teleportation, but he has also overcome teleportation + dopplegangers.
So, a teleport assassination is a good way for Kain to find himself choking down a Mortal Draw, I'd say.
Originally posted by Burning thought
You just did it again....
Because this is going nowhere.
Its not an illusion period? thats as far as an argument goes and yet you belive that just because it apprently affects Zant its not an illusion? if it was warping reality he should have not been affected by it, this works both ways, if the guy could warp reality which he cant he would not have allowed it to harm himself because thats the reality.
Yes, things that affect their creators are not illusions. Let's say I can make a sword. This sword can't harm me because I made it, right? That's basically what you just said. Let's say I'm an illusionist who can hurt people via their mind making it real. This wouldn't affect me because I know it's not real. If it was an illusion, it would not hurt Zant. If it was creation/transmutation/reality warp, it would still be able to hurt him.
Now, hypothetically speaking, what if this was an illusion? If this illusion is real enough for Link to drown and swim, or hit pillars or slip on ice, what makes you think it isn't real enough to drown soldiers and rip Kain a new one? It's quite obviously physical to Link, so why wouldn't it be for anyone else? You claiming illusion means nothing when the results are the same.
Nobody throughout LoZ did anything like I just said, they have never created anything beyond a few minions without the trueforce and yet you claim Zant can warp reality itself and create things from nothing, including things to harm himself. Where are you getting this "several million" nonsense from?
Yes, Ganondorf creating armies is a "few minions." That's just with his one peice. Zelda, with one peice of the Triforce, utterly raped the timeline. Nearly everything Ganondorf has done was with one peice of the Triforce. Freezing cities, busting islands, he even prevented the sun from rising for a while. Since Zant is using Ganondorf's power, and Ganondorf is using the Triforce of Power, it's not hard to believe that Zant can pull these stunts off.
You did it again....
You ignored my post.
Provided evidence already, from all the sources I just previously stated so I think you should go back and read through a few more of my posts.
You provided nothing. Your "evidence" consists of telling me to go look it up on my own.
I just told you where to look and I have posted these videos more than once.
I've not seen you post a single relevant video in this thread. Post it again.
Kain gains immunity to rainfall. And acid is not a "zomg instant death!" to an entity, certainly not one who can heal almost instantly from almost any wound. its no wonder it takes years for a submerged Raziel to die.
I don't give a crap about Kain; Zant already killed him. All the other vampires are still vulnerable. Again, Raziel was protected.
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Yeah, because we all know that Link has never dealt with teleportation (on multiple planes) before... 🙄You know that even phantom Zant has good teleportation ability, right?
Link has not only dealt with teleportation, but he has also overcome teleportation + dopplegangers.
So, a teleport assassination is a good way for Kain to find himself choking down a Mortal Draw, I'd say.
Not from a quick and powerful entity that will slice his throat from behind before he even realises it.
Beating teleporters does not mean Link>teleportation or teleporters, Kains beaten reality warperes on a regional scale and was immune to their power, that does not make him>reality warpers.
Links never reacted to someone teleporting behind him and slicing his head off.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Because this is going nowhere.Yes, things that affect their creators are not illusions. Let's say I can make a sword. This sword can't harm me because I made it, right? That's basically what you just said. Let's say I'm an illusionist who can hurt people via their mind making it real. This wouldn't affect me because I know it's not real. If it was an illusion, it would not hurt Zant. If it was creation/transmutation/reality warp, it would still be able to hurt him.
Now, hypothetically speaking, what if this was an illusion? If this illusion is real enough for Link to drown and swim, or hit pillars or slip on ice, what makes you think it isn't real enough to drown soldiers and rip Kain a new one? It's quite obviously physical to Link, so why wouldn't it be for anyone else? You claiming illusion means nothing when the results are the same.
Yes, Ganondorf creating armies is a "few minions." That's just with his one peice. Zelda, with one peice of the Triforce, utterly raped the timeline. Nearly everything Ganondorf has done was with one peice of the Triforce. Freezing cities, busting islands, he even prevented the sun from rising for a while. Since Zant is using Ganondorf's power, and Ganondorf is using the Triforce of Power, it's not hard to believe that Zant can pull these stunts off.
You ignored my post.
You provided nothing. Your "evidence" consists of telling me to go look it up on my own.
I've not seen you post a single relevant video in this thread. Post it again.
I don't give a crap about Kain; Zant already killed him. All the other vampires are still vulnerable. Again, Raziel was protected.
Obviously if your not going to make an argument.
As you said, Zant is insane, it makes sense that his own illusions are not necesserily not going to harm him, also this is an illusion for both of them not just Link so it harming Zant is not going to refute it being an illusion. No, if he was able to warp reality, he would be able to actually warp the reality of the event or area, not simply copy it almost exactly the same complete with the weaknesses of the bosses he is copying. The most likely "scenario" is hes creating illusions from links previous battles but he himself is not necesserily privy to escaping the illusion, as you said just because you make a sword does not mean you are immune to it.
if its an illusion, Kain for one wont be affected as his mental resistance is high and two the small amount of time and area it covers would be useless in beating a vampire assuming you could trick one.
Zant cannot harm Kain, great Zant can harm a a couple of normal vampires at a time or at least make them belive it so until a few archers turn him into a pincussion. Never stated, Raziel was simply revived from "death".
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Link has reacted to teleportation and an attack literally right out of it. Kain actually waits until he is completely finished before his attack, it's cake compared to Zant.
Zant does not teleport/attack in >0.2 seconds like Kain does, when does he do this? Links not going to react to anything and hes not done it canonically so trying to use a gameplay mechanic to justify it like those infamous whip feat is daft. Dont try it.
Originally posted by LLLLLink
You know why? Because anyone who gets behind him dies from an instant spin attack.
You know that Link can teleport, right? (Well, not in TP without Midna, but the others can)
Its never happened, stop trying to claim Links going to do "instant this" or react to "instant that!", its never happened and he wont react to someone randomly appearing behind him and puting their fingers through his skull. Raziel could achieve this through invisability or anyone with TK could toss him in the air and hold him there struggling for the rest of the battle.
Ive heard he can teleport but in what form? if its a context specific teleport that allows him to go to only specific areas then its hardly going to be useful here.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Obviously if your not going to make an argument.
So what I'm doing now doesn't count as argument?
You know, they say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Arguing with you is sort of like that.
As you said, Zant is insane, it makes sense that his own illusions are not necesserily not going to harm him, also this is an illusion for both of them not just Link so it harming Zant is not going to refute it being an illusion. No, if he was able to warp reality, he would be able to actually warp the reality of the event or area, not simply copy it almost exactly the same complete with the weaknesses of the bosses he is copying. The most likely "scenario" is hes creating illusions from links previous battles but he himself is not necesserily privy to escaping the illusion, as you said just because you make a sword does not mean you are immune to it.
You're not making a whole lot of sense. You are claiming that both Link and Zant (Midna is there, too) are able to be hurt by something that is not real. That's what an illusion is. Something that fools the senses but isn't really there. Your definition makes it sound like an actual thing that can hurt people. That is a critical mistake. Another mistake is that you seem to think that Zant copied the boss weaknesses when that is clearly not true. I posted the videos, didn't you watch them?
Okay, first, Diababa's arena with the acid water. Against Diababa, Link must use the Gale Boomerang to carry a bomb up to the boss' eye. Against Zant, he just hits him with the boomerang and dumps him into the water. With Dangoro, Link has to throw him into magma. With Zant, he just hits him with the Master Sword. Against Morpheel, Link claws to his eye and stabs it wrangling him. Against Zant he just pulls him out of the giant head statue (not present in the original.) Zant obviously only copies the arenas, but the tactics vary wildly.
Finally, you have managed to misunderstand my analogy. A sword is a physical thing that can still hurt the creator. An illusion is not a real thing and cannot hurt anyone directly, especially not the guy who knows it isn't real.
if its an illusion, Kain for one wont be affected as his mental resistance is high and two the small amount of time and area it covers would be useless in beating a vampire assuming you could trick one.
Has Kain seen through illusions before? Wait, why am I even asking that; its not an illusion. Okay, hypothetically, if this was an illusion, has Kain seen through them before? Or even remained unharmed by one?
Further, vampires dissolve in water. You know this.
Zant cannot harm Kain, great Zant can harm a a couple of normal vampires at a time or at least make them belive it so until a few archers turn him into a pincussion. Never stated, Raziel was simply revived from "death".
The evidence points to Kain and fellow vampires dying horribly in water. The archers simply drown.
The Elder God itself stated it spared Raziel from "total dissolution."