LOK3 Defiance vs. Twilight Princess

Go and find proof for this bullshit please. I am tired of your constant claims of immunity or protection. If it exists then your making a no limit fallacy that it automatically overpowers and protects against all of those aspects against any of the beings he faces. If he has the protection then Zant may be able to overpower it. Illusion/mental manipulation is the perfect explanation for Zant to be doing nothing other than mimic the tactics and areas seen previously that link has faced.

None of Zants or Ganons tactisc work, the analogy I made was the most effective barrier Zant could have made for Link, bury him, suffocate him, if you can warp reality like more powerful non LoZ characters can in other fictions then something as small as drowning your opponent is just an example, he could have warped Link into a solid wall and left him to suffocate or into an acid vat as you seem to belive he can create the things physicall in the world. All rubbish.

And look at your own series, the same game has Ganon mentally controlling Zelda through twilight, considering Zant appprently gains a lot of his power from Ganon then this is indication that Ganon can mentally manipulate entities, its far more likely Zant did something similiar to a mental manipulation or illusion to hinder link than to pull some random and illogical power from his ass and mimic exactly previous battles including weaknesses for him to be beaten by.

Zant obviously cannot overpower the protection, Ganondorf can't do it, and he's Zant's source of power.

Ganondorf has tried when? the videos posted in this thread do not display Zant attempting but not being able to TK Link, or Ganon turnign to twilight and invading Links body like he did Zeldas, or using other forms of manipulation like getting Link imprisoned in a crystal like hes done to Zelda in previous games.

Protection is not immunity which is in itself hyperbole/no limit fallacy.

Edit- Zants got Ganons power and apprently his own twili magic going by Scenarios previous statements on how the twili have their own powers.

It's immunity when it works. 🙂 you'd need to be above the sword in power to bypass the protection, simple concept.

BT, the Master Sword is a weapon that is the counter-measure for the Triforce itself. You highly, HIGHLY underestimate it's ability when you make a claim like that. Without the Master Sword's presence in the game, Ganondorf would fornicate world.

I dont underestimate anything ,it takes a reasonably long chargup to reverse Links transformation from a wolf for crying out loud...how powerful can it be? not at all...

What powers has Zant, Ganon etc actually used on Link directly and its had no effect despite working on previos entities? I am interested in a list. Looking at TP and how Zant easily walked in there and the only defence was about 20 armour wearing soldiers.....

I am sure most entites could take out Hyrule through invasion from many fictions let alone Ganon.

facepalm You mean the scene where upon approaching it the sword, without ever being touched breaks the curse borne of the triforce of power?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Scenario does work. So yeah, Zant soloes?

Sometimes I wonder just how much good it does, though...

I work hard on this, and BT just dismisses it like it isn't there and continues with his preconcieved views. It's disheartening, is what it is. Really gets you down. Depressing, really. 🙁

*sigh*

Spoiler:
Time to man the **** back up.

I'm going to try to cut the length down this time. Probably going to remove unneccessary crap.

Yes I thought you were trying to, you did it poorly so trying to steal logic and credability from me will show your lacking in both, like the rest of your original posts.

😆

Shall we dance?

Hes not "warped" anything, their just the same as before even down to the broken platform they never touch left behind after the platform broke away. It does not disprove illusions so I dont know why you said that, that actually disproves that Zant created this or has any control whatsoever over said environments, it just looks like Zant has entered Links memories of these areas and mimics the bosses, hence why he can still be harmed. what differences? youve yet to show them...take Dangaroos level for example, it looks similiar to when he fights Link..

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4:44 The acid turns back to water when Diababa is defeated. Not so when Zant recreates it.

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1:35 Dangoro's (why do you keep saying Dangaroo?) arena rises back up and attaches to the chains again via rising magma. In Zant's fight, it starts with the chains already broken. And Zant shakes it just by jumping, as if he was somehow manipulating something here...

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Yeah, you've seen it before, this one has the most differences, disproving the teleport all by itself. Weird how the the pillars just disappear after 3:24, though. With Zant, he's created several statues of his head, some hefty creation.

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This one's the most similar, nothing to see, really.

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As you can see, this is actually somebody's bedroom before merely looking at a shard of the Mirror of Twilight turns this cute little yeti into an ice monster. Huh, Link seems to look at it just fine without that happening. Anyway, Zant's creation is only similar to the Blizzeta twilit version, though he seems to have added a few jars for whatever reason. Also, as it turns out, Zant can change his size.

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Here's the Zant battle for comparison. Around 8:46 there's what looks like the area outside Hyrule, except one thing. It's sort of lacking Hyrule Castle. I see Castle Town right there, but the Castle itself is just gone for some reason.

Ive argued all these points continually across this forum and yet you want me to keep repeating myself, theres no reason why you cannot do the same.

lol at BT telling me I don't repeat myself often enough.

Nothing evident in that theory, the Elder God is never stated to have protected him hence why Raziel is tumbling and burning with white hot fire.

Yes, he spared him from death and made him a wraith unlike allowing him to dissolve after those years and cease to exist like normal vampires. Zant cannot harm vampires, illusions and reality warp are still unfounded so it is you who needs to pay attension to your own evidence and lessen to hype please?

Emphasis mine. That's just ridiculous. 🙄

Yes because the Sarafan do not have soldiers who are primarily archers like we see throughout the games...stop trying to allow Zant to avoid quick death by pulling stupid reasons from your ass.

Oh, they have dedicated archers? Cool, I guess that's just more Shadow Beast fodder. Cover them in a Twilight cloud.

I have proven it, the amount of times I have posted all these teleports is ridiculous, theres even a respect thread full of them.

Weird, since I've never actually seen you do it, whereas I post relevant videos every time.

If you can prove this entity can protect its soul from the Elder Gods "wheel of fate" then go ahead

Maybe if you could stop giving the Wheel of fates No Limits, and actually give it feats, I would be able to.

Yes because the slaugh, vampire wraiths, Raziel and reapers cant defend themselves...despite being spirital entities in the spectral realm. Also "defend themselves"? in what way?

Ever see the Elder God spin something like that?

Not good enough, quote them otherwise I may as well just quote your name and say "go and find evidence elseware in the forum" as I have throttled most of these points previously.

Originally posted by The Scenario
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2:00-2:30

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thats a good one, i thought you meant bring them back from nothing, I was imaginig shadowbeasts being disintegrated and reforming from screeches, not just collapsing on the floor and getting up again after being hit by a blunt shock from a little wolf....this is not going to help them at all, its a useless feat.
Show me them reforming like this after being cut into piecies.

You just don't understand how this works, do you? They do the same thing for swords, and, as Barnes observed, after being blown up with bombs. It's the graphics, man.

And before you do something childish like whine about how its apprently an illusion just because Zants is, they create real feats of warped reality such as rain turning to fire and trees and the dead forming to create other monsters among other things.

😆 Oh, BT. You so funny. The irony is delicious. It's like you don't even realize the double standard here.

He is already in the cloud at 0.31, theres even streams of twilight coming off around 0:26 when the soldiers are running in.

Congratulations, you have discovered that people aren't transformed by tiny streams. And again, that one guy never entered the cloud.

Bravo Scenario, another excellent post indeed.

I expect compensation of some sort.

Well I can't do that, but you should work on adding some mockery in your posts. It's much more fun and gets better reactions than facts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats pretty much what I said to you several times in my last post, dont try and mimic me to sound like your debating this with any tact, trying to copy my tact against me makes you look worse than you did before. And the fact they affect Zant and all hes doing is copying almost perfectly some of the environments you face previously is fact their not reality warping, otherwise he would make himself immune to a lot of the environments or remove , my suggestion makes less assumptions and illogical nonsense than yours.

It would be nice if you actually argued the point, but nah thats beyond the LoZ lovers is it not? ofc it is! hence why these arguments go nowhere, its either teleportation or an illusion, no reality warping is evident.

No their not, theres no arena evident.

No it doesnt, not in reality just in gameplay, I think its only canon that fledlings and young vampires die quickly. But for Raziel, it takes so long for him to dissolve that "time ceases to exist".

No, the Elder God revived him as a wraith hence the "total dissolution" part. Theres no evidence to say he somehow protected Raziels body and the fact Raziel burns just like any vampire when he falls into the abyss kinda nullifies your theory. Also your shooting yourself in the foot because if the EG can protect entities from water it nullifies your point again.....dont be daft and ignorant in the same post please?

Peasants only, a few soldiers get completly smothered in twilight in that very scene and it requires shadow beasts to take them down. Also thats a good point, the light spirits are present in this battle, so no twilight will be called upon anyway.

The "warp" or "illusion" takes 5 seconds, and behind who? this is an army were talking about so the idea no one is going to notice that Zant has teleported is BS, its like me saying Kain teleports behind Zant and Ganondorf and kills them each in a strike without anyone realising. Zant even makes noises and incantations in that slow 5 seconds, it would take hardly any time to turn and shred him in arrows, thats Zant gone lol...

Show me these "other" Zelda games, and its not instant as you can see him disapear and it takes a few second before he appears again, whatever he did it does not look like any teleport.

Why would I find evidence to counter something as much filled with fanon and illogical nonsense as your post? this point is ridiculous.

I dont recall saying he can do it to entities still alive, he does it to the spirit. Your a fan of claiming the MS makes its own mind up based on its universe' perception of evil of how effective it is against evil so I will simply point out that to the Elder God, unfleshed souls are his food, considering any entity in the form of twilight or without a body like Ganon is at often times is fair game.

He obviously teleported somehwere else as the area does not look like the Water temple OR he made a clever illusion. Kinda like how sephiroth did, Zants never shown creationalist abilities and neither has Ganon to this degree.

The only barrier for a soul reave is flesh, unless you can prove has some physical protective qualaties then anyone in twilight form has their soul bare. Hes not fast at all, in twilight form he took a good few seconds to reahc Zelda a few meters up 🙄

With a crystal to the head if iirc, he did not just gesture. Further proof he cannot transform anyone on a whim.

Disregards all evidence, evidence such as Soldiers running throughout the twilight Cloud and not being harmed in the least? you cannot prove that those soldiers turned into shadowbeasts from that scene and its unlikely as I said because soldiers were in the twiligt after without any harm, shadowbeasts were required. And stop overusing "reaching", its something I used a few times against you, that does not mean you have to use it in every argument like a kid with a new word...

Ok you did not argue how I am underestimating it...go and find reasons. Protected? theres no scene thus shown in this thread of Link being protected, only that it can reverse a minor transformation.

No one in LoK? their not going to be phased by a kid striking at them with a little sword which is nigh featless, their not even evil , a kid who will be killed like I said by a few arrows or an Elder God tentacle.

Yes because a continent sized entity that cleaves through rock while attacking Raziel, can bury temples and burrow into the deepest places of the world has not a pound of strength. Keep reaching...

You mean Link did by absorbing them, your not argueing this your just claiming based on opinion.

Nope, never been proven.

I lold, a flea bitten mongrel is their divine beast? considering the low scale of power in LoZ its not unlikely.

Again, using your new word without argument? you even used it wrongly here, claiming against evidence thats clearly shown and ignoring your no limit fallacy is not reaching boyo!

Surprisingly Kain has immunity to [b]real reality warping form the council in his weakest form, and further nobody is going to harmed on the loK side by something that cannot transform basic soldiers.

Show me, I should not have to ask someone else, I should see it before me...Kains got a weapon stronger than any in LoZ and you try and bring up a few shadow beasts? i lold...again, I seem to be doing this a lot in your reply.

I sort of meant to say your ignorant and are claiming random BS desperatly but it came out wrong, my bad.

Considering 3 weak circle members managed to create the reality warp that is dark Eden, a couple of power ones should be no problem and moebius with his nigh omnicience and Mortanius with soul powers are perhaps the strongest forces in the circle. And you forget that mortanius is around at the same time as the other circle members, Mortanius is among the cirlce at the time of Ancaranothe and Dejoule.

It required 3 to create an expanding dome that covered a large region, warping everything beneath. And 6 are dead by the end of Defiance, not the beginning, Mortanius is also dead by the end of Defiance, nice try though.

Ever heard of submission?

"wreck" as I said before meaning Tked and thrown about a bit? not impressive really when ones a tiny imp of no weight and the other is a young boy...

Ive seen the scenes where he is attacked in the game and so far, he has no feats to suggest he can survive arrows. Also I dont have to prove arrows can beast him, you have to prove he has resistance to arrows otherwise we can be at it all day claiming nobody can prove Kain will be bested by any LoZ weapon and likewise for all vampires.

Soldiers covered by cloud, far more shadowbeasts than soldiers previously run forth. We would not see the bodies, we see soldiers beaten up all over the place so what the hell are you talking about.

Also note 0:31, soldiers run through twilight, nothing happens until the Shadowbeasts are required to stop them. Beasts that take ages to strangle one man later on.....I lold 🙄

Option 1: nah, they just happen to be dead below the camera, not floating in the air.
Option 2: yeh, and mulitplied them into several beasts, despite 0:31 proving this is not the case. [/B]

a)You were thrashed
b)you are a sissy
c)you have no hope of prevailing and surrender to save your life.

When you fight Zant you can't best him with arrows or one or two. The game makes it obvious that arrows can't alone best him but with these type of arguments you can't even prove Kain or raziel can survive bomb arrows. It's just getting ridiculous here.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Scenario does work. So yeah, Zant soloes?

Originally posted by Burning thought
He cant warp reality thats just an overwank like most LoZ crap from you and your fanbase, mimcicing an area is not "warping reality" and in this case illusion is more likely. Zant cannot create to this degree otherwise he is more powerful than Ganondorf or the trueforce (hes really not though!) whos measly power consists of far lower scale.

Perhaps the Sephiroth lovers are right, Sephiroth wipes out the solarsystem every time he uses Supernova and warps reality to reform the solarsystem again! zomg!!

no but really, random illusions, overwanking does not make reality warping.

Originally posted by The Scenario

This is just a spam of points that can be summed up into "NO U!!!" instead of tangible arguments of any kind so i will reply to the only one that makes some sense. If you want you can actually go back and reply to my other points later or concede.

Youve ruled out reality warping and teleportation as what Zant is doing if the environments are not the same when Zant revisits them, that leaves illusion as the primary ability of Zant, illusion based on almsot complete mimicry of previous LoZ fights.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who submits in battle when they haven't been beaten already? the only logical conclusions are

a)You were thrashed
b)you are a sissy
c)you have no hope of prevailing and surrender to save your life.

When you fight Zant you can't best him with arrows or one or two. The game makes it obvious that arrows can't alone best him but with these type of arguments you can't even prove Kain or raziel can survive bomb arrows. It's just getting ridiculous here.

No, because we didn't even see Zant solo an impressive army on his own. His army trumped hyrule's laughable defenses. What? We see him actually warp reality yet you claim he can't and then say a few arrows can kill him. It's your claim so the burden falls on you. I can't just say the master sword kills Kain here and throw the burden on you.

Someones whos tired tactic of creating illusions of previously won battles Link has already defeated is exausted, someone who has nothing left to fight back with.

Zant is not canonically struck with one or two arrows.

No he cant, he can make some fair illusions. Basic ones based on previously encounters that would likely kill him rather than you but its fair enough.

The burdon does not fall on me when Zants body is featless therefore he is pierced by arrows. No you cant because Kain has feats to suggest otherwise, unlike Zant.

Originally posted by Burning thought
This is just a spam of points that can be summed up into "NO U!!!" instead of tangible arguments of any kind so i will reply to the only one that makes some sense. If you want you can actually go back and reply to my other points later or concede.

More delicious irony. 🙄 If you don't want to address my points, I accept you concession.

Youve ruled out reality warping and teleportation as what Zant is doing if the environments are not the same when Zant revisits them, that leaves illusion as the primary ability of Zant, illusion based on almsot complete mimicry of previous LoZ fights.

No, I ruled out illusion and teleportation. Teleportation was ruled out by differences in the arenas, and illusion was ruled out by Zant also being affected. You've yet to actually address that, just like my other points.

I already addressed everything in your posts that was worth replying to, but whatever...

We dont actually see him appear out of nowhere, Link was covering where Ganon ported in, a second or so covered it.

Like this, it's pretty worthless as a point. Less than a second, and Ganondorf appeared from nowhere, so I don't see what you're getting at here. It's still a feat, and nothing you just said lessened it.

Links not going to have much of a choice, the sword will be shattered by the EG or Kain or just Tked from his hands and tossed aside where he will be killed by a few humans with swords.

This, too. You seem to have forgotten about Link's protection and do not appear to even know what the Master Sword is. A nd then you claim Link is defeated by a few humans, which is utterly ridiculous.

Yes it does, size and muscle and physical prowess condones strength based on size. Cleaving through rock throughout the planet and bearing the upper world pushing down on his body is beyond any feat in LoZ millions fold. Combine that with the fact he has countless billions of tentacles that reform and mulitply and we have a buried hyrule

Failed attempt at proving size = strength. We now know that Zant can change his size, by your logic this means he can just crush your precious archers, and defeat the Elder God, whose tentacles frankly aren't that big. Yeah, he might be huge (I haven't seen much evidence of this, however), but his tentacles, the things he uses to do anything, would be much smaller than a size changed Zant.

Now, I watched a few Defiance vids (particularly the final boss) and I'm not seeing what you describe as the Elder God. First off, not really as big as you're claiming. Second, he does not have billions of tentacles, and it looks like he can only actually use three at once. Third, the only area he even tried (and failed, looks like) to bury was already underground.

Then again, I'm not too good at finding evidence from games I haven't played. If you could actually back up some of this stuff, it might be pretty helpful.

1. If Zant was using an illusion, it would have easily been lifted when Link uses his senses as a wolf. Those senses allow him to see the spirit world, see invisible foes, see his surroundings through scent (illusions don't have an effect on scent). Therefore, "illusion" is out of the question.

2. Zant is able to fight with a mere phantom (telepathic projection) of his true self. This phantom is able to fire beams of twilight magic, teleport, and summon lifeforms. So, please don't say that he is featless, BT.

From the beginning:
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I've managed to find a few examples of Twilight Transformations. These are the before and after shots.

Before: Kargoroc

After: Shadow Kargoroc

Before: Deku Baba

After: Shadow Baba

Those are actually the only pictures of the Twilight versions I can find. Oh well. Still, there's also a Twilight counterpart to the Bulblin, which is a sentient, intelligent creature.

Before: Bulblin

After: Shadow Bulblin + Shadow Kargoroc
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If you'll notice, these guys (both normal and twilight versions) use flaming arrows. As I recall, two big vampire weaknesses are impalement and fire, both of which are provided by these arrows. I could see a crapload of these guys taking out Kain, especially if they are mounted (they sometimes ride Bulbos, which are basically a cross between a pig and a bull.)

At worst, they'll be killing any vampire that's not Kain.

Those Bulblins are intelligent enough to set traps, domesticate boar, and cook. It would be a mistake to think them to be barbaric.

Originally posted by Burning thought
This is just a spam of points that can be summed up into "NO U!!!" instead of tangible arguments of any kind so i will reply to the only one that makes some sense. If you want you can actually go back and reply to my other points later or concede.

Youve ruled out reality warping and teleportation as what Zant is doing if the environments are not the same when Zant revisits them, that leaves illusion as the primary ability of Zant, illusion based on almsot complete mimicry of previous LoZ fights.

Someones whos tired tactic of creating illusions of previously won battles Link has already defeated is exausted, someone who has nothing left to fight back with.

Zant is not canonically struck with one or two arrows.

No he cant, he can make some fair illusions. Basic ones based on previously encounters that would likely kill him rather than you but its fair enough.

The burdon does not fall on me when Zants body is featless therefore he is pierced by arrows. No you cant because Kain has feats to suggest otherwise, unlike Zant.

So? If you want to make the claim you can kill him with arrows it's your claim to prove not mine to disprove.

He reality warped because the effects of the environment affected you like the environment would have.

Zant has feats and you can't make a claim and throw the burden of proof on someone else.

I'm digging the Ganondorf sig, Quanchi.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I'm digging the Ganondorf sig, Quanchi.