Originally posted by The Scenario
2:20-3:30If that's the best the Elder God can do...well, it's kinda pathetic. I honestly see no possible way he can bury Hyrule (how does he plan on getting under Hyrule, again?) if it takes him over a minute to slightly bust up a little section of the underworld. Ganondorf did more damage than that in a few seconds.
EG's weak (but the most powerful creature in the LoK verse currently). His only merits are supposed omniscience (which did not extend to Raziel, and Kain post-Raziel's sacrifice), the ability to open time portals, the ability to burrow, and his existence in a plane separate from the Material & Spectral Realms. He has considerably more influence in the Spectral Realm, but that is moot here.
He does more in the battle against Kain, but nothing of note. Mild tremors, (that do not affect the player) projectiles (I'd say they travel as fast as Kain when he mist-dashes), a shield over his eye (weak-spot), and tentacle attacks are all that he has.
It's just BT performing his usual wanking of LoK characters.
YouTube video
YouTube video
Kain demonstrates another type of teleportation in the second vid. It is much slower than BT claims.
This is Kain's best speed feat afaik.
YouTube video 5:23
Originally posted by BloodRain
If a logical reason to why he wouldn't use his fastest attack is needed then you would need to have a logical reason to why he would for instance use punches moves at normal speed when using lightning and moving at lightning speed would be the more logical choice if he was desperate for the kill.
Zeus has already demonstrated a decent level of speed. It isn't 'normal speed' either. Kratos also can typically react to nearly all of Zeus' attacks, even if they're amped by lightning. Which is why Zeus doesn't just spam them left and right, as Kratos can reflect them.
Such high speed in a game is simply not something a player can react to, not unless they did a slow-mo effect every time a boss did a very fast attack. Frequent slow-mo effects in regular gameplay would be a pain in the ass as well. We're back to Vergil attacking the player at slower than Mach 1 speeds in gameplay, even when amped by Super DT in the last mission.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Not really as he does attacks that are faster then the orbs like the slash-wave when he gets the BoO or lightning-disappearing movements that the player has to react to. Again, not put real lightning speed into a game, just fast speeds to represent real lightning not something that is slower then most attacks in the game :/ And the level of his mastery isn't important in the least. It's what he can do with it which is creates orbs and bolts like Zeus and the others on that list. But now we're debating GoW.
All Zeus uses in cutscenes are his thunderbolts (which is again, his symbol of power, and Mythological Zeus' symbol), all of which function as Lightning in the GoW verse, or are an upgraded version of the normal lightning that is formed when Zeus is angry.
He's never used standard 'orbs'. All his projectiles are thunderbolts, because that's all he ever uses in cutscenes when he wants to use a projectile. The only differences between bolts are their build-up and subsequently, power.
Now, if speed differs between his projectile attacks, the only way that happens is due to his arm speed. He doesn't toss those diagonal projectiles, which is probably why they're slow.
Alternatively, it just means that those particular attacks are faster than his lightning bolts 313
Yeah, that's well and all, but barring one attack, Cole doesn't create bolts, not ones that can create and simulate actual lightning, whereas Zeus' bolts are lightning. Different levels of power and mastery. You're basically using a facet of bullets from a standard .45 calibre to try and justify a facet of bullets from E&I.
Zeus' main element is Lightning itself, which in the GoW verse is seemingly different from electricity in terms of element. At the very least, it's inherently greater than the electricity that Poseidon and Cronos have used. It's what he uses to amp his physical attacks and movement.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah he can but not shown to that extent. Unless proven as the fastest he's ever shown is 1/2500th of what's needed to parry lightning back and forth. Anyway, he's shown his movement speed and he's shown his reactions. Both are completely against the attack being at lightning speed.
Like I said, I can't really debate for Link anyway. >__>
Originally posted by Burning thought
Disagree, the one he launched at Gaia was from the heavens. iirc in Sparta he simply created what looked like bolts/orbs in his hands and tossed them at buildings. Different.
In other words, build-up of his own power. All that changed from his usual thunderbolts and the the thunderbolt he threw at Gaia and Kratos was the power of the bolt itself.
His first bolt against Sparta came from 'the heavens' and was exactly like the other bolts he tossed at Sparta. Was not slow either.
Originally posted by Burning thought
He may be the creator and master of lightning, that does not mean we assume any he throws are at the same speed as natural lightning. in cutscenes we can see him throw slower forms of lightning, just like in any fiction that has slower forms. hes not excempt just because hes the "master" of lightning.
We see him throw faster forms of lightning, or forms that are as fast as lightning. Which is why he's known as the god of lightning, i.e. it's his specialty. Regular lightning bolts are created in the sky when he is simply angry. Why would he throw slower bolts at someone who was trying to kill him, and throw faster bolts at buildings? 😐
Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive proven hes a hundred tonner+, as if he was not he could not manhandle Raziel with ease. Name some? seems to me your simply stating this, most things I say are connected completly with the canon, I dont simply assume things are faster because of titles and because I belive its only slow in gameplay.
No, you haven't. Raziel's not as strong as you think he is either. Struggling to push a block =/= lifting it. Lifting something requires more strength & force than pushing it (and struggling in the process).
Kain never manhandles Raziel when it comes to pure strength either. Simply grabbing someone's neck as they are jumping towards you does not mean you're twice as strong.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Theres nothing in your evidence that does not help me. You show the piece of the EG thats fighting Kain and prove he can regen and mutliply his form effortlessly and almost instantly....this is a poor attempt at downplaying characters while strengthening them....
Originally posted by The Scenario
YouTube video3:5o, [b]"Twilight covered Hyrule like a shroud, and without light, the people became as spirits. Within the Twilight, they live on, unaware they have passed into spirit forms..."
"It's an outlier, and was the only time it happened. Multiple other feats make it irrelevant.
Stop ignoring the evidence just because it doesn't suit you. The weight puzzle proves that the boots are heavier than iron.
I guarantee you're going to try to discredit my evidence and not post any of your own.
No, I'm referring to a human in full armor's inability to float in the air.
Except some odd reaction time.
I thought Raziel barely touched the blocks? If he can exert that much force with just a touch, I don't see why Kain can't. [/B]
Thats not soul resistance, infact it does more to the body than the soul. The twilight is a specific realm that chances people, its not a spell and resisting it specifically is not helping him against magic of the soul.
The weight puzzle proves little, other than hollow pots are heavier than Link. And 600 pounds+ is not heavy either. Iron is the actual canon, outside gameplay events for the sake of puzzles does not refute it.
He did not float in the air of his own accord, kain is attacking him. Considering this is a gameplay mechanic its funny how your trying to use it as an argument...
Nothing there shows Kain actually trying, Raziel uses his claws and strength to move the blocks purposefully. Anyone can push their feet against a door without it moving.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Ok, so your argument is because its within gameplay its non canon? despite Kain getting it through the canon fragment, the ability itself being canon. The only thing you could argue is that Kain did not use it canonically within the storyline, this does not refute the ability itself. nice try though...
The Elder God attempts to smash down areas of the underworld and suceeds smashing rocks and surfaces just as big, if not bigger than thoses Kain, Raziel or indeed Link moves..and this is just a part of him...not the part that also covers the abyss, the lake of tears or the vampire citadel...
All of him can burrow into the dense, deepest places of the planet so that sort of>any real feat.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Ok, so your argument is because its within gameplay its non canon? despite Kain getting it through the canon fragment, the ability itself being canon. The only thing you could argue is that Kain did not use it canonically within the storyline, this does not refute the ability itself. nice try though...
The Elder God attempts to smash down areas of the underworld and suceeds smashing rocks and surfaces just as big, if not bigger than thoses Kain, Raziel or indeed Link moves..and this is just a part of him...not the part that also covers the abyss, the lake of tears or the vampire citadel...
All of him can burrow into the dense, deepest places of the planet so that sort of>any real feat.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixIn other words, build-up of his own power. All that changed from his usual thunderbolts and the the thunderbolt he threw at Gaia and Kratos was the power of the bolt itself.
His first bolt against Sparta came from 'the heavens' and was exactly like the other bolts he tossed at Sparta. Was not slow either.We see him throw faster forms of lightning, or forms that are as fast as lightning. Which is why he's known as the god of lightning, i.e. it's his specialty. Regular lightning bolts are created in the sky when he is simply angry. Why would he throw slower bolts at someone who was trying to kill him, and throw faster bolts at buildings? 😐
No, you haven't. Raziel's not as strong as you think he is either. Struggling to push a block =/= lifting it. Lifting something requires more strength & force than pushing it (and struggling in the process).
Kain never manhandles Raziel when it comes to pure strength either. Simply grabbing someone's neck as they are jumping towards you does not mean you're twice as strong.
Show the sparta video again? I recall them being slower than the one used against Gaia...
What? your argument is "why would Zeus" do this despite actually doing it? thats daft, we see him fireing slower powers. in cutscenes we also see him throwing bolts slower than real lightning so theres nothing to do with the "oh it has to be slow because of player reactions" is lulzy..
Everything I say about LoK is complete canon, Raziel pushing 50-100 tonnes is fact, and he can flip them as well. One light push and about 50 tonnes rolling along, lifting it over his head would be hard as he prob weighs about 70 kg considering the loss of weight, if that. Yeh, if you had played the LoK games and read my posts, thats not what I am refering to....Kain tosses Raziel aside when Raziel uses his full strength with anger with ease and uses Tk to launch him across the room.
Funny how the Zelda side have to desperatly grasp at straws while apprently in their universe, things we dont even see such as Majoras whips being dodged by link, iron boots being heavy and Ganon taking any damage whatsoever in the castle scene are all able to be assumed.. 😆
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Zeus has already demonstrated a decent level of speed. It isn't 'normal speed' either. Kratos also can typically react to nearly all of Zeus' attacks, even if they're amped by lightning. Which is why Zeus doesn't just spam them left and right, as Kratos can reflect them.Such high speed in a game is simply not something a player can react to, not unless they did a slow-mo effect every time a boss did a very fast attack. Frequent slow-mo effects in regular gameplay would be a pain in the ass as well. We're back to Vergil attacking the player at slower than Mach 1 speeds in gameplay, even when amped by Super DT in the last mission.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
All Zeus uses in cutscenes are his thunderbolts (which is again, his symbol of power, and Mythological Zeus' symbol), all of which function as Lightning in the GoW verse, or are an upgraded version of the normal lightning that is formed when Zeus is angry.
He's never used standard 'orbs'. All his projectiles are thunderbolts, because that's all he ever uses in cutscenes when he wants to use a projectile. The only differences between bolts are their build-up and subsequently, power.
Now, if speed differs between his projectile attacks, the only way that happens is due to his arm speed. He doesn't toss those diagonal projectiles, which is probably why they're slow.Alternatively, it just means that those particular attacks are faster than his lightning bolts 313
Yeah, that's well and all, but barring one attack, Cole doesn't create bolts, not ones that can create and simulate actual lightning, whereas Zeus' bolts are lightning. Different levels of power and mastery. You're basically using a facet of bullets from a standard .45 calibre to try and justify a facet of bullets from E&I.
Zeus' main element is Lightning itself, which in the GoW verse is seemingly different from electricity in terms of element. At the very least, it's inherently greater than the electricity that Poseidon and Cronos have used. It's what he uses to amp his physical attacks and movement.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Like I said, I can't really debate for Link anyway. >__>
Originally posted by The Scenario
I guarantee you're going to try to discredit my evidence and not post any of your own.
Can I call them or what? Or maybe BT's just predictable...
Thats not soul resistance, infact it does more to the body than the soul. The twilight is a specific realm that chances people, its not a spell and resisting it specifically is not helping him against magic of the soul.
Watch the first video again. The one that concerns the Hyrulian people becoming helpless soul forms in the Twilight. Then watch the second video again, which concerns the Triforce of Courage changing Link, not into a soul/spirit like a normal person, but into a wolf. Then watch the the third video again, which concerns the Master Sword transforming Link back into a human. Then realize that it is a soul affliction and stop reaching for ways your featless spell will work, when it clearly won't. It doesn't matter that it isn't a spell, as Link has a feat for defense, and your spell does not have any feats for offense. Understand that since Link is protected in canon and the spell has never canonically done anything, it is folly for you to suggest it would do anything at all to Link.
Also realize that this protects both Link and Ganondorf, as well as pretty much any twilight creature, from that reality warping feild, which would be stopped by the Light Spirits anyway.
The weight puzzle proves little, other than hollow pots are heavier than Link. And 600 pounds+ is not heavy either. Iron is the actual canon, outside gameplay events for the sake of puzzles does not refute it.
You've already proven you're absolutely terrible at judging weight, so you have nothing right now. Those little statues could easily weigh somewhere in the area of 60-70 pounds (half of Link's assumed weight) and the puzzle proves it anyway. 600+ isn't even the important part, which is you ignoring that the scales prove that the Iron Boots are heavier than actual iron.
Further, Iron is not the actual canon, as the metal with which the boots are said to made of varies from region to region, and they are officially the Heavy Boots in Japan.
This might help a little. If you can work it, this page was translated from Japanese, repeatedly referring to something called Hebyibutso, which seems to substitue for Heavy Boots. Or you can just check here, where it has the list of names in other regions. In the French and Spanish versions, it switches between Boots of Lead and Boots of Iron. The Japanese still says Hebyibutso/Heavy Boots. As much as you try to deny it, Iron Boots is not the actual canon for the material. The localization teams can't even seem to make up their minds. The puzzle is the best representation we have for the weight, and it seems the most accurate, despite your desperation to prove that the boots are iron, when they are clearly not. The name is inaccurate; get over it.
He did not float in the air of his own accord, kain is attacking him. Considering this is a gameplay mechanic its funny how your trying to use it as an argument...
Simply isn't how physics works. If Kain was hitting him, even with mediocre strength, the man would not just float there. He would fly in the direction Kain hit him. Now, I have doubts about gameplay mechanics. The developers did not have to animate Kain juggling a guy in mid-air, but it was clearly intended. They could have just had Kain hitting a guy with reasonable combos, but no, they had to go the Devil May Cry route and make mid-air juggling a viable tactic. Toonforce in spades.
Nothing there shows Kain actually trying, Raziel uses his claws and strength to move the blocks purposefully. Anyone can push their feet against a door without it moving.
It was a locked door and Kain wanted to escape. He notes that humans have a fascination with doors and makes his normal kick-open-door move, which doesn't budge it at all. You still have yet to prove that Kain is that strong anyway.
Ok, so your argument is because its within gameplay its non canon? despite Kain getting it through the canon fragment, the ability itself being canon. The only thing you could argue is that Kain did not use it canonically within the storyline, this does not refute the ability itself. nice try though...
Ok, so your contradiction is that when Kain juggles a guy in gameplay it isn't canon, but when he teleports in gameplay it is? Also, I notice that you didn't refute the charge up time, extremely short distance, or general uselessness of the move.
The Elder God attempts to smash down areas of the underworld and suceeds smashing rocks and surfaces just as big, if not bigger than thoses Kain, Raziel or indeed Link moves..and this is just a part of him...not the part that also covers the abyss, the lake of tears or the vampire citadel...
Congratulations, that puts the Elder God on par with a Goron in strength. He's not burying anything. Now, how does EG plan on getting from those places to Hyrule? Also prove he's in all of those places at once.
All of him can burrow into the dense, deepest places of the planet so that sort of>any real feat.
Prove it. "Any real feat"? Sounds like a mere assumption rather than a "real feat." Nah, I don't care about that phrase, just prove that he's even capable of moving.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Can I call them or what? Or maybe BT's just predictable...Watch the first video again. The one that concerns the Hyrulian people becoming helpless soul forms in the Twilight. Then watch the second video again, which concerns the Triforce of Courage changing Link, not into a soul/spirit like a normal person, but into a wolf. Then watch the the third video again, which concerns the Master Sword transforming Link back into a human. Then realize that it is a soul affliction and stop reaching for ways your featless spell will work, when it clearly won't. It doesn't matter that it isn't a spell, as Link has a feat for defense, and your spell does not have any feats for offense. Understand that since Link is protected in canon and the spell has never canonically done anything, it is folly for you to suggest it would do anything at all to Link.
Also realize that this protects both Link and Ganondorf, as well as pretty much any twilight creature, from that reality warping feild, which would be stopped by the Light Spirits anyway.
You've already proven you're absolutely terrible at judging weight, so you have nothing right now. Those little statues could easily weigh somewhere in the area of 60-70 pounds (half of Link's assumed weight) and the puzzle proves it anyway. 600+ isn't even the important part, which is you ignoring that the scales prove that the Iron Boots are heavier than actual iron.
Further, Iron is not the actual canon, as the metal with which the boots are said to made of varies from region to region, and they are officially the Heavy Boots in Japan.
This might help a little. If you can work it, this page was translated from Japanese, repeatedly referring to something called Hebyibutso, which seems to substitue for Heavy Boots. Or you can just check here, where it has the list of names in other regions. In the French and Spanish versions, it switches between Boots of Lead and Boots of Iron. The Japanese still says Hebyibutso/Heavy Boots. As much as you try to deny it, Iron Boots is not the actual canon for the material. The localization teams can't even seem to make up their minds. The puzzle is the best representation we have for the weight, and it seems the most accurate, despite your desperation to prove that the boots are iron, when they are clearly not. The name is inaccurate; get over it.
Simply isn't how physics works. If Kain was hitting him, even with mediocre strength, the man would not just float there. He would fly in the direction Kain hit him. Now, I have doubts about gameplay mechanics. The developers did not have to animate Kain juggling a guy in mid-air, but it was clearly intended. They could have just had Kain hitting a guy with reasonable combos, but no, they had to go the Devil May Cry route and make mid-air juggling a viable tactic. Toonforce in spades.
It was a locked door and Kain wanted to escape. He notes that humans have a fascination with doors and makes his normal kick-open-door move, which doesn't budge it at all. You still have yet to prove that Kain is that strong anyway.
Ok, so your contradiction is that when Kain juggles a guy in gameplay it isn't canon, but when he teleports in gameplay it is? Also, I notice that you didn't refute the charge up time, extremely short distance, or general uselessness of the move.
Congratulations, that puts the Elder God on par with a Goron in strength. He's not burying anything. Now, how does EG plan on getting from those places to Hyrule? Also prove he's in all of those places at once.
Prove it. "Any real feat"? Sounds like a mere assumption rather than a "real feat." Nah, I don't care about that phrase, just prove that he's even capable of moving.
I actually did watch them again, I dont know why I waste time doing so because all I see is a scripted event based on a particulour type of matter. Its not sorcery or magic, which is relevent because you cant assume that just because the triforce has some resistance (removal of body/transformation to wolf) against twilight does not give you the ability to claim a no limit fallacy of this magnitude and claim it protects him against all kinds of spiritual/transformation powers. Theres no soul affliction because the soul is fine, its the body thats removed. No, it does matter...
It does not really protect anyone against anything other than the twilight Zant/Ganon may use on his own side once LoK have mind raped them.
Oh no, I am perfect for judging weight as I have yet to make outrageious and laughable claims on creatures being in the hundreds of tonnes when they disprove this alltogether. The weight puzzle is an inconclusive gameplay puzzle, nothing more. If Link could throw hundreds of tonnes like the daft Link supporters claim then those pots only half his weight should have gone miles according to your logic.
Ive gone through the regions, the majority of them are Iron boots, I think the french one was lead. This does not claim in any way that officially, any one country is wrong. Only that "iron boots" is the majority.
So your claiming DMC and LoK and any other game toonforce simply because of a combo gameplay mechanic? Kains using a sword, the PSI would also slash them from head to toe, its all gameplay mechanics....oh and in using a sword, the upper slash pressure is what were using, not Kains base strength.
Wrong, Kain if you watched the video at all wanted to get across the room to the balance emblem, terrible reaching here....Kain did not put any effort into the door, and did not use his claws either. Strength proven against Raziel...
One is a gameplay mechanic, the teleportation is a static and imovable ability that is canon that Kain gains canonically just like most powers in fiction. Weve been through charging before, it only takes about 0.8 seconds at most, if that to charge and release the move and weve been through distances in teleportation, distance is irrelevent when space is not being travelled.
In perhaps one tentacle....and a Goron cannot move iron so no..thats not true. He does not move previous body masses from feats, so he cant have "travelled" or got to other places co-incidently or otherwise. The EG sprawls out and "burrows" throughout the world. Your making assumptions based on illogical ignorance.
The magic of "burrowing" and the fact his tentacles move show him moving so I dont know where your going with this...
Originally posted by Burning thought
I actually did watch them again, I dont know why I waste time doing so because all I see is a scripted event based on a particulour type of matter. Its not sorcery or magic, which is relevent because you cant assume that just because the triforce has some resistance (removal of body/transformation to wolf) against twilight does not give you the ability to claim a no limit fallacy of this magnitude and claim it protects him against all kinds of spiritual/transformation powers. Theres no soul affliction because the soul is fine, its the body thats removed. No, it does matter...
Scripted event? That's not a scripted event, it's a series of cutscenes; pure, unfiltered canon. Scripted events are also canon regardless. Now, are you seriously claiming that Zant and Ganondorf laying Twilight, the same stuff that can transform the Twili people, is not magic? I had to do a double take bacause I thought I read it wrong. But no, you're claiming in earnest that it wasn't magic. Priceless. Now then, I'm not the one making a No-Limits-Fallacy here, BT. You are. Link has shown resistence to soul and transformation magic, and Kain has never shown any ability to get past resistences. Prove that Kain can affect anything with that spell first, and then we'll discuss Link's proven resistence to it. People are separated fro their spirits; that's a soul move.
Also, could you point out to which of these is Kain's soul draining spell? He doesn't seem to have one in Defiance, so this point is moot anyway.
It does not really protect anyone against anything other than the twilight Zant/Ganon may use on his own side once LoK have mind raped them.
Are you serious? Honestly serious? There are two videos that show Link's resistence to magic and you have the audacity to suggest that it won't protect him from Kain's featless spells? Further, you have once again ignored Ganondorf's mental resistence via Fused Shadows. Further still, you're using abilities that are not in this thread to give Kain the advantage.
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/reaverkain.php
Yeah, Kain dosn't even have a mind control spell in Defiance. All he's got is inspire hate, which he can't even use if he's charging for a teleport. Ganondorf would have resisted it anyway.
Oh no, I am perfect for judging weight as I have yet to make outrageious and laughable claims on creatures being in the hundreds of tonnes when they disprove this alltogether. The weight puzzle is an inconclusive gameplay puzzle, nothing more. If Link could throw hundreds of tonnes like the daft Link supporters claim then those pots only half his weight should have gone miles according to your logic.
You're absolutely horrible at judging weight. It is physically impossible for something of Dangoro's size to weigh 400 pounds, even if it was pure flesh. You're clinging to an inconsistency that was overruled by later feats. The weight puzzle is dependant on weight; it is accurate, despite your repeated reaching attempts. Contrary to popular beleif, humans have this ability to control how much force they apply to things.
New feat:
YouTube video
Ive gone through the regions, the majority of them are Iron boots, I think the french one was lead. This does not claim in any way that officially, any one country is wrong. Only that "iron boots" is the majority.
French and Spanish are lead. You haven't proved any country is right, either. Iron Boots is the majority, but that does not prove it is accurate. Two other sources claim that the boots are lead, and the original source claims they are heavy, but you claim that neither of those matter to the almighty English reign. You're still clinging to a name that was long ago proved inaccurate.
Tell me, what is this made of?
So your claiming DMC and LoK and any other game toonforce simply because of a combo gameplay mechanic? Kains using a sword, the PSI would also slash them from head to toe, its all gameplay mechanics....oh and in using a sword, the upper slash pressure is what were using, not Kains base strength.
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/attackkain.php
Sanguine Censure
"Once an opponent is flung helpless into the air I can follow suit catching them before they fall, carving their flesh and bone with a second assault."
Yes, it's just gameply isn't it. That's why Kain decides to detail the function of the specific move with a specific name: the Sanguine Censure. He says that's how the move works, so that's how it does.
TOONFORCE.
Wrong, Kain if you watched the video at all wanted to get across the room to the balance emblem, terrible reaching here....Kain did not put any effort into the door, and did not use his claws either. Strength proven against Raziel...
He didn't know the emblem was there until he gave up the door. Terrible reaching. Prove his strength against Raziel, please.
One is a gameplay mechanic, the teleportation is a static and imovable ability that is canon that Kain gains canonically just like most powers in fiction. Weve been through charging before, it only takes about 0.8 seconds at most, if that to charge and release the move and weve been through distances in teleportation, distance is irrelevent when space is not being travelled.
One has a quote from Kain himself, the other has a mere description. We have not been through charging before, and Kain needs to kill several enemies to fill up the reaver's meter in order to use any of his spells. If distance doesn't matter Midna teleports Kain into the sun.
In perhaps one tentacle....and a Goron cannot move iron so no..thats not true. He does not move previous body masses from feats, so he cant have "travelled" or got to other places co-incidently or otherwise. The EG sprawls out and "burrows" throughout the world. Your making assumptions based on illogical ignorance.
Goron can move iron and shatter boulders. They wear it as armor. You're making assumptions, too. EG has never been shown to burrow in the games and likely can't even move, discounting his tentacles moving. Ignorance is not illogical, it is ignorance. Show me proof so that I won't be so ignorant, if you can.
The magic of "burrowing" and the fact his tentacles move show him moving so I dont know where your going with this...
His tentacles move, but EG himself just sits there the entire game. Prove he can "burrow" to a different area.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Scripted event? That's not a scripted event, it's a series of cutscenes; pure, unfiltered canon. Scripted events are also canon regardless. Now, are you seriously claiming that Zant and Ganondorf laying Twilight, the same stuff that can transform the Twili people, is not magic? I had to do a double take bacause I thought I read it wrong. But no, you're claiming in earnest that it wasn't magic. Priceless. Now then, I'm not the one making a No-Limits-Fallacy here, BT. You are. Link has shown resistence to soul and transformation magic, and Kain has never shown any ability to get past resistences. Prove that Kain can affect anything with that spell first, and then we'll discuss Link's proven resistence to it. People are separated fro their spirits; that's a soul move.Also, could you point out to which of these is Kain's soul draining spell? He doesn't seem to have one in Defiance, so this point is moot anyway.
Are you serious? Honestly serious? There are two videos that show Link's resistence to magic and you have the audacity to suggest that it won't protect him from Kain's featless spells? Further, you have once again ignored Ganondorf's mental resistence via Fused Shadows. Further still, you're using abilities that are not in this thread to give Kain the advantage.
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/reaverkain.php
Yeah, Kain dosn't even have a mind control spell in Defiance. All he's got is inspire hate, which he can't even use if he's charging for a teleport. Ganondorf would have resisted it anyway.
You're absolutely horrible at judging weight. It is physically impossible for something of Dangoro's size to weigh 400 pounds, even if it was pure flesh. You're clinging to an inconsistency that was overruled by later feats. The weight puzzle is dependant on weight; it is accurate, despite your repeated reaching attempts. Contrary to popular beleif, humans have this ability to control how much force they apply to things.
New feat:
YouTube videoFrench and Spanish are lead. You haven't proved any country is right, either. Iron Boots is the majority, but that does not prove it is accurate. Two other sources claim that the boots are lead, and the original source claims they are heavy, but you claim that neither of those matter to the almighty English reign. You're still clinging to a name that was long ago proved inaccurate.
Tell me, what is this made of?
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/attackkain.php
Yes, it's just gameply isn't it. That's why Kain decides to detail the function of the specific move with a specific name: the Sanguine Censure. He says that's how the move works, so that's how it does.
TOONFORCE.
He didn't know the emblem was there until he gave up the door. Terrible reaching. Prove his strength against Raziel, please.
One has a quote from Kain himself, the other has a mere description. We have not been through charging before, and Kain needs to kill several enemies to fill up the reaver's meter in order to use any of his spells. If distance doesn't matter Midna teleports Kain into the sun.
Goron can move iron and shatter boulders. They wear it as armor. You're making assumptions, too. EG has never been shown to burrow in the games and likely can't even move, discounting his tentacles moving. Ignorance is not illogical, it is ignorance. Show me proof so that I won't be so ignorant, if you can.
His tentacles move, but EG himself just sits there the entire game. Prove he can "burrow" to a different area.
The effects behind it are all scriped, twilight works on those people because thats how people transform when they touch it. Twilight does not affect link, simply because twilight is protected against. Theres nothing to suggest is magic when its actually just part of the "twilight" world, another realm being layered onto hyrule.
Its not from defiance. But their the same character...why would this thread not allow it? oh and Defiance covers BO 1 era, so yes, technically during the times of Defiance Kain does have Spirit death.
No they dont show it 😆 , I think your the one who must be joking by trying to claim the no limits fallacy that apprently having a resistance against twilight specifically rather than an actual sorcery is somehow a soul resistance feat despite the soul not clearly being effected.
And its physically impossible for anyone of Dangoros size to bounce along lava, your taking a game thats not to be taken seriously as physically infalliable. How much force? to what degree when you can apprently throw hundreds of tonnes?
I see Link slowly moving a mechanism operated object further up. Whats impressive about this?
Why would I have to prove which country is right when its the western/English version we play and use? the majority claim iron therefore the logical conclusion is that iron is the likely version. I dont know and this is becoming a strawman, Iranmans suit is made up of some kind of combination of metals.
He is describing what the ability does in canon, slashes them into the air and he meets them with a bone carving assault. He does not describe how they float in the air as he slashes them 5 times before they lose enough health and drop incapaciated...like the gameplay mechanics show. Your case has floundered.
From 2:08-2:12 durability, Raziels claws, 100+ strength multiplied to thousands of tonnes based on the edge of a sharp edge and Kain is not scratched.
From 2:12 Raziel in a rage, effort and using far more strength in his pushes than he does to push around 100 ton blocks pushes against kain who unfazed finishes his sentence and pulls himself from Raziel and blasts him across the room at 2:22.
Oh 😆 your refering to yet another gameplay mechanic? is this how your arguments are supposed to work, once the actual canon has proven too much for your side you pick at gameplay mechanics? 🙄
The EG's tentacles move enough to break the land, and burrow as Kain states. I am also talking about physical technical strength, e.g. a Titan from God of war could throw a battleship with one hand based on its strength, even if it has not. The EG has thousands of multiplying tentacles that can bury and burrow through the Earth so even without the evidence of him "thriving and burrowing" its simply a logical fact.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The effects behind it are all scriped, twilight works on those people because thats how people transform when they touch it. Twilight does not affect link, simply because twilight is protected against. Theres nothing to suggest is magic when its actually just part of the "twilight" world, another realm being layered onto hyrule.
The effects behind it are all canon. People transform into souls when they touch it, yes, but why do you not think this is magic again? It doesn't even matter if it's magic or not, honestly, since Link has resisted a soul and transformation effect. If Link can resist that, why is magic any different? The Twilight magic also affects people that live in the Twilight Realm.
9:49, that Twili was transformed by the same stuff, and the Sol turned him back. Then Link added the Sols to the Master Sword.
Its not from defiance. But their the same character...why would this thread not allow it? oh and Defiance covers BO 1 era, so yes, technically during the times of Defiance Kain does have Spirit death.
The same reason Ganondorf only has Twilight Princess feats instead of all of them: Quanchi disallowed it. I've been arguing using only one game, and you're using the whole series. Kain didn't use it during Defiance, he doesnt have it.
No they dont show it 😆 , I think your the one who must be joking by trying to claim the no limits fallacy that apprently having a resistance against twilight specifically rather than an actual sorcery is somehow a soul resistance feat despite the soul not clearly being effected.
Twilight is actual sorcery, and a resistence is a resistence. I have asked you several times to prove that Kain's spell works on anything with resistence, yet you have not. I don't believe it has, and Kain does not even have the ability in this thread.
And its physically impossible for anyone of Dangoros size to bounce along lava, your taking a game thats not to be taken seriously as physically infalliable. How much force? to what degree when you can apprently throw hundreds of tonnes?
Clinging to a single inconsistency that is the result of PIS. Later Gorons have a much more consistent showing. To the same degree that you apparently can barely touch a door when you supposedly throw hundreds of tons.
I see Link slowly moving a mechanism operated object further up. Whats impressive about this?
Takes a lot of strength, of course.
Why would I have to prove which country is right when its the western/English version we play and use? the majority claim iron therefore the logical conclusion is that iron is the likely version. I dont know and this is becoming a strawman, Iranmans suit is made up of some kind of combination of metals.
Because it's not the actual canon. You're trying to use something that has questionable canon significance when it is unproven. The Japanese is the true canon, and the rest is some guys that translate words and make things up.
The Iron Man picture is to illustrate that not everything that is called iron is actually iron.
He is describing what the ability does in canon, slashes them into the air and he meets them with a bone carving assault. He does not describe how they float in the air as he slashes them 5 times before they lose enough health and drop incapaciated...like the gameplay mechanics show. Your case has floundered.
He describes "catching" them and carving them before they hit the ground, which shouldn't be possible but is thanks to Kain's toonforce. How about this:
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/attackkain.php
Nightmare's Hammer
"While crossing swords mid-air, I am able to throw my quarry into the ground far below and then recall them within range of my continued assaults."
Lol at Kain bouncing armored guys toon style. There's not even any TK involved, which would at least make it slightly believable.
Infernal Sundering
"Upon slamming the serpantine blade of the Reaver into my adversary, the resulting force will blast their pathetic body into the very ground beneath."
This just proves that the Reaver is a blunt weapon, since anything with an edge tends to cut things when force is applied. Jeez, Kain, learn 2 physics.
YouTube videoFrom 2:08-2:12 durability, Raziels claws, 100+ strength multiplied to thousands of tonnes based on the edge of a sharp edge and Kain is not scratched.
You have yet to prove Raziel has 100+ ton strength, so this is worthless to me. And force in a tiny area that barely touches the skin, nice job.
From 2:12 Raziel in a rage, effort and using far more strength in his pushes than he does to push around 100 ton blocks pushes against kain who unfazed finishes his sentence and pulls himself from Raziel and blasts him across the room at 2:22.
I don't see him applying any real force, much less comparable to his block pushing. Looks like he's just holding him there while Kain doesn't fight back. Then it looked like Kain surprised him and used a spell to throw him back. Wow, that's your evidence? It's honestly less than nothing.
Oh 😆 your refering to yet another gameplay mechanic? is this how your arguments are supposed to work, once the actual canon has proven too much for your side you pick at gameplay mechanics? 🙄
When there is no actual canon, there's only one thing to fall back on. It's not my fault the Reaver needs to drink blood in order to do anything at all. Looks to me like the whole ability isn't canon by your logic, even though the fragment is.
The EG's tentacles move enough to break the land, and burrow as Kain states. I am also talking about physical technical strength, e.g. a Titan from God of war could throw a battleship with one hand based on its strength, even if it has not. The EG has thousands of multiplying tentacles that can bury and burrow through the Earth so even without the evidence of him "thriving and burrowing" its simply a logical fact.
Prove thousands. Prove multiplying. Elder God's tentacles are only strong enough to break a few rocks, that's nowhere near strong enough to actually move his (thought to be) massive ass.
My apologies for bumping up the shitstorm that is LOK3 Defiance vs. TP.
_____
Originally posted by BloodRain
Punches are normal speed, and if Kratos can apparently react to lightning why would he bother with charged, slow punched when he could be trying out his fastest attacks in hopes hitting him. Yes at real speed the player couldn't react but to use electric attacks that are as fast as Kratos runs, especially when the played has had to react to fast things in the form of sudden QTE and fast opponents/attacks throughout the game makes little sense other then thats just how he does it as he manipulates it to that degree. For all we know there could be some difference between that attak and regular bolts.
(Normal speed for Zeus you mean. Zeus wouldn't throw punches at human speed as he's much faster)
Same reason no boss is ever shown using their fastest attacks all the time in gameplay. Though that doesn't mean that their fastest attacks are much slower than they really are. We don't know how the actual battle plays out, but unless Zeus is hampered by a very severe case of CIS shown only in retarded characters, he'll use his bolts. The devs also give Zeus the usage of his bolts in our battles against him, so it's likely he uses them.
(The bolts are a lot faster than Kratos runs in gameplay, well, the standard ones at least. You can't outrun them, only parry or roll out of the way at the last possible instant. Or you can use I-frames but I-Frames don't translate over to canon, so that's moot)
Speed probably depends on how he tosses his bolts. He doesn't toss those diagonal bolts, which is probably why they're slower. The standard ones are much faster.
Originally posted by BloodRain
If he can manipulate the speed of the electricity he produces how can you be sure that the orbs (I'm still gonna call 'em orbs >.>😉 are at lightning speed? <_< new you were going to turn it like that, besides when did we start basing characters on what they may of survived in gameplay that isnt some event or set animation?
Oook then fine, Cole can summon real lightning thats speed is >>>>> the grenade/orbs he makes. Better?
Considering they've been shown in cutscenes to always be fast when he tosses them, yeah.
He doesn't manipulate the speed of electricity, but he does slow down the descent of a stream of lightning such that it looks like it there is a barrier slowing them down. I'll provide the cutscene down below.
Whenever he uses a projectile, he uses bolts only, with two different levels of power shown (one whose splash damage can hurt a Titan, and one than can destroy small buildings). The entire 'Zeus destroys Sparta' cutscene shows him tossing bolts that are pretty much identical to the ones he tosses at Kratos in their GoW2 fight. At the end of the fight, he uses a stream of lightning that Kratos blocks. Then there's the fact that the thunderbolts are supposed to be lightning itself.
Those blasts come from the BoO itself, which was able to create a wave that covers a very large area (the arena where the gods and Titans were fighting in the Great War) in less than 5 seconds.
You keep bringing up the bolts in gameplay. srug
Kratos is also shown tanking the bolt that hurt Gaia in a cutscene.
YouTube video
7:23 onwards.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Well, were debating this in the wrong place then `,` GoW, inFamous and DMC but no LoZ or LoK, hmm.
Edit: May a well ask. IYO Link, from that Twilight Princess cutscene, he reacting to lightning or not?
Which cutscene is it again? Also, if it's Ganon, I don't know whether he can throw lightning or not. Meh.
After 50+ pages, the TP-LoK debate is getting very old. It's pretty much a debate between the LLLC and BT/quanchi112, with a few points debated by you.
Originally posted by XanatosForever
Why is God of War being discussed in a versus thread between the Legacy of Kain and the Legend of Zelda? 😬
People keep bringing up Zeus in regards to the whole Ganon throwing lightning thing.
Besides, after a large number of pages with debating over the Heavy Boots, a little OT discussion is always welcome. 313
Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres nothing in your evidence that does not help me. You show the piece of the EG thats fighting Kain and prove he can regen and mutliply his form effortlessly and almost instantly....this is a poor attempt at downplaying characters while strengthening them....Show the sparta video again? I recall them being slower than the one used against Gaia...
What? your argument is "why would Zeus" do this despite actually doing it? thats daft, we see him fireing slower powers. in cutscenes we also see him throwing bolts slower than real lightning so theres nothing to do with the "oh it has to be slow because of player reactions" is lulzy..
Everything I say about LoK is complete canon, Raziel pushing 50-100 tonnes is fact, and he can flip them as well. One light push and about 50 tonnes rolling along, lifting it over his head would be hard as he prob weighs about 70 kg considering the loss of weight, if that. Yeh, if you had played the LoK games and read my posts, thats not what I am refering to....Kain tosses Raziel aside when Raziel uses his [b]full strength with anger
with ease and uses Tk to launch him across the room.
[/B]
Downplaying? nahh, I'm merely telling Scenario how the EG attacks Kain in the actual vid. Projectiles, and tentacle sweeps are best offense he has against Kain. For defense, all he has is a shield over his eye. For all his threats, he couldn't do much to Kain, let alone bury him.
YouTube video
4:20 onwards.
We see him tossing his bolts in gameplay. We see him tossing what technically are the same bolts in cutscenes.
No, nearly everything you say in a debate when it comes to LoK characters, particularly EG, Kain & Raziel, is your fanon. Just as you believe the LLLC comes up with their fanon, I know you come up with your own fanon regarding the attributes of the three mentioned above.
Prove Raziel used his full strength against Kain. Raziel was busy listening to Kain, and he only had his forearm up against Kain. Hell, Kain couldn't even budge a metal gate when he kicked it.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Which cutscene is it again? Also, if it's Ganon, I don't know whether he can throw lightning or not. Meh.After 50+ pages, the TP-LoK debate is getting very old. It's pretty much a debate between the LLLC and BT/quanchi112, with a few points debated by you.
Not cutscene but a gameplay moment. Will leave this by saying that no way is Link deflecting lightning several times in a row.
Not cutscene but a gameplay moment. Will leave this by saying that no way is Link deflecting lightning several times in a row.
Ganon visibly shoosts lightning all the damn time, just because it's slowed down when Link has to reflect it (because the player has to, in gameplay) doesn't negate this fact. 😬 Also, I almost drank piss a few hours ago, and am still unhappy. >|
Originally posted by BloodRain
Appearance, prior reactions and speed [both of the orb and the movement speed of two present] are some reasons to why. Willing not to dwell on this now since you almost drank piss.. pr1983
As for prior reactions, Link's hit with an orb which isn't even lightning in a cutscene as a kid, before he receives the triforce of courage and most of his powar. This is also before Ganon gains the ToP, and he might not have lightning yet, but by the end game, the lightning is very clearly shown. 😬 And even this orb in the cutscene hits Link basicly instantly, much faster than in gameplay lightning, but Ganon, many times, exhibits his lightning shoosting. The gameplay speed is simply not relevant.
In fact, Link handles lightning so frequently and consistently that tbh, I don't see how there could even be a case made against it on Link's "portrayal", as Quanchi would call it. Is legit feat, happens a lot.
Thanks. Friend's birthday, he pissed in a bottle... 🙁 Tried to tell me was beer.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Appearance? O-oAs for prior reactions, Link's hit with an orb which isn't even lightning in a cutscene as a kid, before he receives the triforce of courage and most of his powar. This is also before Ganon gains the ToP, and he might not have lightning yet, but by the end game, the lightning is very clearly shown. 😬 And even this orb in the cutscene hits Link basicly instantly, much faster than in gameplay lightning, but Ganon, many times, exhibits his lightning shoosting. The gameplay speed is simply not relevant.
In fact, Link handles lightning so frequently and consistently that tbh, I don't see how there could even be a case made against it on Link's "portrayal", as Quanchi would call it. Is legit feat, happens a lot.
Thanks. Friend's birthday, he pissed in a bottle... 🙁 Tried to tell me was beer.
haven't been following the thread, and I doubt I'll post again, just throwing this out there. Lightning f***s Link up when he's hit by it, it puts him on the ground.
example would be chus and the f***ed looking jellyfish things in Jabu Jabu's Belly( don't remember their names, and don't feel like using google to find it)
The part that I find interesting is that it even hurts u when u hit them with your sword, u don't have to be hit by them. So basically what I'm getting at, and I'm just assuming your using OoT Link's fight with Gannondorf at the end of the game, is that yes, he does react to those attacks, and deflects them with his sword, but I don't really see how thats saying that he reacted to lightning. Even though it was shown when he was charging it, I'd say it'd be more of a charged Dark/evil attack since the Master sword can't deflect electricity, just evil
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Appearance? O-oAs for prior reactions, Link's hit with an orb which isn't even lightning in a cutscene as a kid, before he receives the triforce of courage and most of his powar. This is also before Ganon gains the ToP, and he might not have lightning yet, but by the end game, the lightning is very clearly shown. 😬 And even this orb in the cutscene hits Link basicly instantly, much faster than in gameplay lightning, but Ganon, many times, exhibits his lightning shoosting. The gameplay speed is simply not relevant.
In fact, Link handles lightning so frequently and consistently that tbh, I don't see how there could even be a case made against it on Link's "portrayal", as Quanchi would call it. Is legit feat, happens a lot.
Thanks. Friend's birthday, he pissed in a bottle... 🙁 Tried to tell me was beer.
Like behaviour, looks, way it works and the sparks on it. I saw that scene, the boy was hit [which doesnt show reactions] by a flash of light. [unknown really] Not sure if I asked you but how do you explain Link and Zelda (her body) slashing at the speed needed to reflect lightning like that?
Could of been worse. You could of got really wasted and drank it from the tap.. >_>