Atheism

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It's no different from the cockiness of Theists who "know" God did it.

Science can't ask why, because then it stops being science and becomes biased.

In a murder trial, science (forensics) can explain how the murder occured, but not the abstract and immaterial reason of "why". Motive is often illogical and no field in science can always explain the killer's incentive.

Science = how, Religion = why

Originally posted by WanderingDroid
I can't stand Youtube Atheists. They remind me of Religious Fanatics.

"You don't agree with us...then you're stupid"

Originally posted by dadudemon
To take your comment seriously, even demons in the New Testament acknowledge and recognize Jesus. Simply knowing that "Jesus is the Christ" is not even remotely enough to obtain salvation.

Every time I hear a "Christian" say, "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior", I get a frumpy face. Great, so you are on the same level as the mythical demons of the New Testament: who cares?

If it were easy enough, according to Christianity, to obtain Eternal Salvation but just confessing (with sincerity) that Jesus was your personal Lord and Savior, then a Third of the Hosts of Heaven would also have salvation.

Atheists are not the ultimate evil. The Ultimate Evil would be a being that knows with a perfect knowledge everything about God and purposefully works against God. That is supposedly the role Lucifer fulfills.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
:The agenda of false opposition between the two needs to stop.

I agree. But wasn't it Dawkins that said something about religion needing to stop meddling in science? That's a horrible paraphrase, of course, but I agree with that notion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
To take your comment seriously, even demons in the New Testament acknowledge and recognize Jesus. Simply knowing that "Jesus is the Christ" is not even remotely enough to obtain salvation.

Every time I hear a "Christian" say, "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior", I get a frumpy face. Great, so you are on the same level as the mythical demons of the New Testament: who cares?

If it were easy enough, according to Christianity, to obtain Eternal Salvation but just confessing (with sincerity) that Jesus was your personal Lord and Savior, then a Third of the Hosts of Heaven would also have salvation.

Atheists are not the ultimate evil. The Ultimate Evil would be a being that knows with a perfect knowledge everything about God and purposefully works against God. That is supposedly the role Lucifer fulfills.

I know the topic is atheism, but I just had to comment on this one.

You are absolutely right on your first point. Even demons and fallen angels acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. That's why I always get baffled when people say they're Christian/saved because "Oh, I believe in God." The Bible says something very similar to your point: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19)

From there, you lose it. You make it seem like you have to do works to have salvation or something. While yes, you must do more than just confess Jesus is your redeemer, you don't work for it or "earn" it. It's a gift from God that is either received or rejected. Here's a rundown of basically how to get saved:

1) Admit to yourself and God that you are a sinner and deserve to go to hell.
2) Admit to yourself and God that you cannot "earn" your salvation.
3) Truly believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the remission of your sins.
4) Believe that Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice is sufficient to cover all of your sins.
5) Repent of your sins, and make an honest attempt to never do them again.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Originally posted by Bat Dude
From there, you lose it. You make it seem like you have to do works to have salvation or something. While yes, you must do more than just confess Jesus is your redeemer, you don't work for it or "earn" it. It's a gift from God that is either received or rejected.

Actually, you lose it: just saying "Lord! Lord!" will not do it for you. Sure, the gift of salvation is free for everyone but you have to take it by a sincere conversion. It is not sincere if you don't make a change to your actions for the better (what Lutherans somewhat believe). And it is by your works that you are judged, not confessing the name of Christ:

http://bible.cc/romans/2-6.htm

http://smashingidols7.wordpress.com/30-2/

Some Christians argue that "accepting Christ" means making sincere/genuine behavioral changes. I'm okay with that logic. So they rationalize that your works are not really judged but rather, the sincerity and the honesty you put into your life. With that, I think we both agree and that is the middle ground.

But if you ever hear a Christian (which is said often by many ignorant Christians) say that we are not judged according to our works, let them know they need to study their religion, more.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But if you ever hear a Christian (which is said often by many ignorant Christians) say that we are not judged according to our works, let them know they need to study their religion, more.

How do you deal with Ephesians 2:8-9 though?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How do you deal with Ephesians 2:8-9 though?

You mean the one that means you can't save yourself because the message was directed towards Jews that wore "badges" of righteousness for every "good deed" they did. Yeah, not relevant.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean the one that means you can't save yourself because the message was directed towards Jews that wore "badges" of righteousness for every "good deed" they did. Yeah, not relevant.

The context doesn't mention Jews wearing badge's of righteousness or anything like that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The context doesn't mention Jews wearing badge's of righteousness or anything like that.

There is a section in the NT that talks of the them wearing stuff to show how many good deeds they did...like merit badges. I cannot find it, at the moment...exactly.

But it is the Tefillin stuff and other things. Matthew 23:5

Also:

http://bible.cc/titus/3-5.htm

There are more. But, basically, there is this recurring idea, which seems to be looked down upon by the early Christians, that showing your righteousness publicly like some of the contemporary Jews did, was not enough to "obtain" salvation. You can "pay" all you want for salvation with good deeds and righteous works but, to transpose the saying, Works without faith are dead in the same way faith without works are dead.

You can choose to think that the context requires a mention of any of this. I chose to keep the context and message of many of the early Christians in mind when considering that one particular passage that is often taken out of context to force a contradiction.

Looking for Jesus not liking people to be all uppity about how pious they are you don't have to look further than the sermon on the mount.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How do you deal with Ephesians 2:8-9 though?

Are you new to interpretations of the Bible? I'm sure you can find someone to claim that means you should only eat locusts on wednesdays in winter...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, you lose it: just saying "Lord! Lord!" will not do it for you. Sure, the gift of salvation is free for everyone but you have to take it by a sincere conversion. It is not sincere if you don't make a change to your actions for the better (what Lutherans somewhat believe). And it is by your works that you are judged, not confessing the name of Christ:

http://bible.cc/romans/2-6.htm

http://smashingidols7.wordpress.com/30-2/

Some Christians argue that "accepting Christ" means making sincere/genuine behavioral changes. I'm okay with that logic. So they rationalize that your works are not really judged but rather, the sincerity and the honesty you put into your life. With that, I think we both agree and that is the middle ground.

But if you ever hear a Christian (which is said often by many ignorant Christians) say that we are not judged according to our works, let them know they need to study their religion, more.

Yes, we will be judged by our works... at the judgment seat of Christ. And if you are at the judgment seat of Christ, you know one thing: you're saved and going to heaven, because the judgment seat of Christ is where all the believers go, and those that do not believe go to the Great White Throne of judgment.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Good works are a wonderful thing to do, but you do them BECAUSE you're saved, not TO GET saved.

More scripture on this topic:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Galatians 3:6)

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:14)

(As you can see, I've been reading Galatians)

Like I said, you have to repent of your sins to be saved, but going around doing good works does not justify a person in the eyes of God.

God's kind of a picky *sshole, isn't he?

Originally posted by Bat Dude
You're putting the cart before the horse. Good works are a wonderful thing to do, but you do them BECAUSE you're saved, not TO GET saved.

Because you posted this, you clearly have no idea what I posted.

Go back and read my posts. After reading them, you should realize that making points like the above are quite unnecessary.

I could also argue that you are judged by your works no matter how you want to spin it. You are judged by your works: period. Run with it how you want but you cannot deny you are judged by your works. Let the interpretations mean things like "the sincerity you put into such works" if you want. But there is no getting around that you are judged by your works.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Good works are a wonderful thing to do, but you do them BECAUSE you're saved, not TO GET saved.

You really like to make these whacky assumptions about other people. Some people do "good" deeds just to do them and they're not Christians who are "saved" or expecting to be saved cos of said good deeds.

eg I bought a San Francisco homeless man a meal (two larges slices of pizza and a Coke) and then let him keep the change, cos it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, not because of my religious beliefs or because I thought god was watching and judging me.

IMO, it shows more character to do that simply because you want to help someone than doing it because you think it's expected or are looking for a reward after death.

Originally posted by Robtard
You really like to make these whacky assumptions about other people. Some people do "good" deeds just to do them and they're not Christians who are "saved" or expecting to be saved cos of said good deeds.

eg I bought a San Francisco homeless man a meal (two larges slices of pizza and a Coke) and then let him keep the change, cos it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, not because of my religious beliefs or because I thought god was watching and judging me.

IMO, it shows more character to do that simply because you want to help someone than doing it because you think it's expected or are looking for a reward after death.

I think the following quote accurately describes what I think:

Because you posted this, you clearly have no idea what I posted.

I'm saying a person, whether they be Christian or Catholic or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim or Satanist or Pagan or Atheist or Agnostic or Mormon or Scientologist or New Age or ANY religion, people in general, are NOT going to go to heaven because they do good things for people. I don't care if you're the nicest guy on the planet. Good deeds do not justify you, me or anyone else in the sight of God. You know why? Because no matter how much good we do, we will ALWAYS do more evil. Now whether our society today recognizes it as evil is not the issue. That is our sin nature that we inherited from Adam. And that is the reason why we need a Saviour. That doesn't give us a license to go out and sin and live like the devil, but we can't justify ourselves by being "generally good people" like I've heard many people out in the world say.

Now in regards to your story and your rebuttal: I didn't say people only do good things to get saved. However, the vast majority of religions do teach that one is saved/goes to heaven because they do good things for people. The classic "if the good outweighs the bad" scenario.

We give and do nice things for one another because it is what God wants us to do. It's the RIGHT thing to do. Not to be saved. Not to receive rewards (rewards are given for our works in heaven, but that shouldn't be our motivation). Not to be seen among men.

In all honesty, announcing that you did that nice thing for that person screams of "being seen among men". It was almost like you were bragging about it. "Oh, I give because I'm a nice guy. YOU give because your God says to." Jesus had this to say about that type of giving:

"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." (Matthew 6:1-2)

Originally posted by Bat Dude

I think the following quote accurately describes what I think:

I'm saying a person, whether they be Christian or Catholic or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim or Satanist or Pagan or Atheist or Agnostic or Mormon or Scientologist or New Age or ANY religion, people in general, are NOT going to go to heaven because they do good things for people. I don't care if you're the nicest guy on the planet. Good deeds do not justify you, me or anyone else in the sight of God. You know why? Because no matter how much good we do, we will ALWAYS do more evil. Now whether our society today recognizes it as evil is not the issue. That is our sin nature that we inherited from Adam. And that is the reason why we need a Saviour. That doesn't give us a license to go out and sin and live like the devil, but we can't justify ourselves by being "generally good people" like I've heard many people out in the world say.

Now in regards to your story and your rebuttal: I didn't say people only do good things to get saved. However, the vast majority of religions do teach that one is saved/goes to heaven because they do good things for people. The classic "if the good outweighs the bad" scenario.

We give and do nice things for one another because it is what God wants us to do. It's the RIGHT thing to do. Not to be saved. Not to receive rewards (rewards are given for our works in heaven, but that shouldn't be our motivation). Not to be seen among men.

In all honesty, announcing that you did that nice thing for that person screams of "being seen among men". It was almost like you were bragging about it. "Oh, I give because I'm a nice guy. YOU give because your God says to." Jesus had this to say about that type of giving:

"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." (Matthew 6:1-2)

You didn't follow my point at all. Oh well.

That second paragraph is you preaching your religious views and has nothing to do with the point I was making. So that's all the response I have for that.

I didn't claim you said: "people only do good things to get saved.". So moving on.

Or as I said: people do nice things just to do nice things and god isn't involved in the decision(ie they're already saved), which was my point of the story. <--- focus on this

You think I posted that story to brag? 😂 It happened easily two years ago and no one except for me, the homeless guy and the two people behind the counter knew about it. But yes, I'm "bragging" here cos I dolled out $10.00 to a guy who had immediate need. This isn't the only random act of kindness I've done, but that's probably bragging too.

Wee, more scripture posted out of place.

Originally posted by Robtard
eg I bought a San Francisco homeless man a meal (two larges slices of pizza and a Coke) and then let him keep the change, cos it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, not because of my religious beliefs or because I thought god was watching and judging me.

IMO, it shows more character to do that simply because you want to help someone than doing it because you think it's expected or are looking for a reward after death.

Yes, this was more my point. Doing good for goodness sake and not good because you get +5 good points from your fellow Christians is what my point was. That is part of what it means "judged by your works". Bat Dude is confusing "you can get into heaven by doing good works" with "you are judged by the sincerity and intent of all your works (good or bad)."

Once he reconciles that there is a difference, he'll understand and move on.

Originally posted by Robtard
Or as I said: people do nice things just to do nice things and god isn't involved in the decision(nor are they looking for some return), which was my point of the story.

Side note:

I am of the perspective that this is what God wants: people to be God for goodness sake and not because we think He will rain hell-fire and brimstone on our face...or because Betty and Bob will look down their nose at us for not doing something they find good. For me, the whole point of existence is to become a better person in your own right and not because you think a some petty deity is ready to singe your ass for stepping out of line.

Originally posted by Robtard
You really like to make these whacky assumptions about other people. Some people do "good" deeds just to do them and they're not Christians who are "saved" or expecting to be saved cos of said good deeds.

eg I bought a San Francisco homeless man a meal (two larges slices of pizza and a Coke) and then let him keep the change, cos it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, not because of my religious beliefs or because I thought god was watching and judging me.

IMO, it shows more character to do that simply because you want to help someone than doing it because you think it's expected or are looking for a reward after death.

You make me sick.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Side note:

I am of the perspective that this is what God wants: people to be God for goodness sake and not because we think He will rain hell-fire and brimstone on our face...or because Betty and Bob will look down their nose at us for not doing something they find good. For me, the whole point of existence is to become a better person in your own right and not because you think a some petty deity is ready to singe your ass for stepping out of line.

👆

Originally posted by Mindset
You helped him because it made you feel good, you didn't care about him.

You make me sick.

I cared that he was hungry and in need at the moment.

Lies, I make you wet.