Originally posted by Astner
Through the belief of Jesus Christ, right?
Belief in Jesus does not mean he isn't worthless and contemptible, it just means he won't be punished for how awful and profane he is. The issues of self-loathing (which is what started this) isn't avoided.
Originally posted by Betsy601
What is "evidence"?
A likelihood function.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Belief in Jesus does not mean he isn't worthless and contemptible, it just means he won't be punished for how awful and profane he is. The issues of self-loathing (which is what started this) isn't avoided.
Originally posted by Astner
Yes, Christians see themselves as sinners even though they've been saved. This isn't something new, more importantly it doesn't contradict my claim. Reread the segment you quoted and note that the context of it is eternal suffering, and not sinfulness.
Actually, you were responding to a person talking about how ****ed up it is to believe you are inherently debased and evil and can never change.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually, you were responding to a person talking about how ****ed up it is to believe you are inherently debased and evil and can never change.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9:27)That's pretty clear, imo.
That's not making your point, at all.
It does not say, "Immediate judgement."
Originally posted by Bat Dude
If you die in unbelief, you die in your sins, and you go to hell. There is no second chance.
That is no where in all of Christian, Jewish, or Muslim scripture.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
All of those scriptures I posted make that pretty clear, I think.
Sure, if you make stuff up, it means that.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
One of the problems I see with Batdude is that he doesn't understand the difference between a proposition of the form "It is the case that A says B" and the proposition of the form "It is the case that B" when it comes to The Bible.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I quote Scripture because this is a doctrinal issue, and the Bible is the Word of God. Whether someone believes it or not doesn't change that.
So batdude, how do you know the bible is the word of god?
Originally posted by 753
the logic of salvation from eternal damnation through religeous conversion and adoration of the christian deity sure helped christianity spread.It's really quite brilliant:
1. everyone is going to hell, in principle, because we are born tainted by sins we did not commit and premarital sex is as foul as rape/murder/torture/slavery (this doesn't include instances of rape murder and torture sanctioned by god in the scriptures. those are ok)
No, this is wrong. Everyone is going to hell if Jesus never existed. Since it was always part of God's plan for Jesus to suffer an infinite amount, while in the flesh, for our sins, then your statement that everyone is going to hell is wrong.
Also, a minority of Christians believe in original sin.
And, it is not enough to just say "LORD! LORD!" to get to heaven. You have to be genuinely converted. Genuine conversion requires you genuinely try to not sin anymore (God is the judger of what constitutes "Genuine"😉. Sure, you can be forgiven of your sins...and there is only one unforgivable sin. But it is not the pretty picture you paint that absolves you of your actions. You make it seem like Christians are pop-psy liberals who think we are not responsible for our actions. 😆
Originally posted by 753
2. but our god is great, merciful, fair and not vindictive, so even the worst of the lot will go to a place of eternal bliss, if they simply worship him and join our flocks.
Well, no. Genuinely become converted is what you're looking for. You're not genuinely converted if you continue to rape, murder, steal, lie, cheat, adulterate, etc. Unless, of course, you have a genuine problem in those areas that is near impossible to overcome in the flesh...and God will be the judger of that. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, this is wrong. Everyone is going to hell if Jesus never existed. Since it was always part of God's plan for Jesus to suffer an infinite amount, while in the flesh, for our sins, then your statement that everyone is going to hell is wrong.Also, a minority of Christians believe in original sin.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, no. Genuinely become converted is what you're looking for. You're not genuinely converted if you continue to rape, murder, steal, lie, cheat, adulterate, etc. Unless, of course, you have a genuine problem in those areas that is near impossible to overcome in the flesh...and God will be the judger of that. 🙂
One could genuinely believe that Jesus wants them to murder people.
Less glibly: How closely must ones beliefs be to the one true dogma in order for it to count? Presumably I'm going to hell for various deliberate and accidentally blasphemies but what about my Presbyterian mother or my Jewish aunt? (I'm not related to religious men, apparently)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
One could genuinely believe that Jesus wants them to murder people.
That's for God to judge but...it is documented that He specifically does not want you to murder.
Note: I am a Mormon and we don't believe Joshua was justified in the utter destruction of Jericho. We generally think something was lost in translation along the way or something is missing. Some Christians say that they knowingly sinned by sacrificing their children to false gods and were warned that they would be destroyed for doing so...and not a single soul in that relatively massive city was innocent. I just cannot believe that unless the idea of Christian-reincarnation is real (meaning, the children, who were clearly innocent, were killed but given another life-chance). Surely there were plenty of innocent children? Well, the Christian apologists have an apologetic to my complaint, as well: those children were saved by Christ's grace which is given to all man, freely. Since God commanded it, it was done in righteousness. Well, my argument then becomes, "Oh, so if God gives you a fundemetnal commandment to NOT kill, then commands you to kill, it's okay to kill? How do you know the person receiving the God-commands is right? How do you know that it was the Holy Spirit that told you it was right? One Name: David Koresh." Which has led me to believe God is far more deistic than most people think.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Less glibly: How closely must ones beliefs be to the one true dogma in order for it to count? Presumably I'm going to hell for various deliberate and accidentally blasphemies but what about my Presbyterian mother or my Jewish aunt? (I'm not related to religious men, apparently)
Marginally close but not exact. Not even Mormons, who believe we are close as possible to having a line to God, believe we are perfect in our beliefs and faith (meaning, the teachings, dogma, and precepts we hold as true are not perfect and have many human-caused flaws). We also believe that all man has a naturally programmed "do right" mechanism. Some blame genetics and our evolutionary nature and others say it is the Holy Spirit helping subtly along the way. I think it is both and it could be more than the other depending on the person.
But, I honestly think, as do many Christians, that a good Jew is just as worthy as a good Mormon, good Atheist, good Shamanist, and so forth. Also, every Christian should believe that what they hold as right and wrong, they will be judged by that (because that is what it says in the NT). So if you genuinely believe that it is wrong to pray towards the west and you pray towards the west, that is a sin. Sure, you and I may think such a belief is absurd, but it is not our belief.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Things change a bit if you realize that those who are in "hell" actually chose to be in that state of existence. So, no, not such a downer if you know everyone is where they want to be.
This belief was in "What Dreams May Come - 1998". Not a superb movie overall, but I liked its take on the afterlife.
Originally posted by dadudemonthe bit about accepting the lord jesus christ was in my 2nd point. I understand of course that interpretations of scripture vary widely and most contemporary christians do not uphold the fundamentalist views prevalent among pentecostal protestants I was addressing.
No, this is wrong. Everyone is going to hell if Jesus never existed. Since it was always part of God's plan for Jesus to suffer an infinite amount, while in the flesh, for our sins, then your statement that everyone is going to hell is wrong.Also, a minority of Christians believe in original sin.
And, it is not enough to just say "LORD! LORD!" to get to heaven. You have to be genuinely converted. Genuine conversion requires you genuinely try to not sin anymore (God is the judger of what constitutes "Genuine"😉. Sure, you can be forgiven of your sins...and there is only one unforgivable sin. But it is not the pretty picture you paint that absolves you of your actions. You make it seem like Christians are pop-psy liberals who think we are not responsible for our actions. 😆
Well, no. Genuinely become converted is what you're looking for. You're not genuinely converted if you continue to rape, murder, steal, lie, cheat, adulterate, etc. Unless, of course, you have a genuine problem in those areas that is near impossible to overcome in the flesh...and God will be the judger of that. 🙂
what sin would be unforgiveable?