Originally posted by namorsubby
I can scarcely understand you, BH. The concept is fine."peak of human potential" doesn't mean next step in "evolution", I've heard Cap refered to before as if he were, but it was hyberbole, like calling Batman "the most dangerous man in the world" or "unbeatable", which he has been refered to as. many have.
No it isn't Brubaker has used that term to describe he most defintely wasn't talking in hyperbole. Batman is not that.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Foolish logic. Could and long time somehow translate to Cap's victory?
Busiek confirmed that Batman mean't Cap was superior.
Originally posted by namorsubby
Batman trained to human perfection, which can be interpreted in all sort of ways, but I figure if you're humanly perfect, you're as good as a human can be.
Batman isnt humanly perfect, he's not faster than Casandra Cain, and he doesn't have better agility then Nightwing. Is he even as strong as Bane sans venom? Cap is, Cap is, and Cap is. There are no non-enhanced humans (or ones that don't have a special gift or brain function ie; mister x or taskmaster) better then Captain America physically. It's just the way it is.
Originally posted by Deadline
No it isn't Brubaker has used that term to describe he most defintely wasn't talking in hyperbole. Batman is not that.Busiek confirmed that Batman mean't Cap was superior.
Then he should have written it in the script. Writers come and go, and one writers opinion isn't anywhere near definitive.
Also, lol at mean't.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Then he should have written it in the script. Writers come and go, and one writers opinion isn't anywhere near definitive.Also, lol at mean't.
He should have written it in script? Except if he had done that people would have said it was hyperbole and nows hes actually said it it doesn't matter. Hes a respected writer who has written for both Cap and Batman.
Im pretty sure though stuff like that has been said in comics many times.
Originally posted by Deadline
He should have written it in script? Except if he had done that people would have said it was hyperbole and nows hes actually said it it doesn't matter. Hes a respected writer who has written for both Cap and Batman.Im pretty sure though stuff like that has been said in comics many times.
People would argue the point because there is literally hundreds of feats that can be used to argue against it. It doesn't matter how respected he is, his opinion is not the be-all-end-all of the discussion.
In any case Busiek did implied Batman would lose, simply because arrogant as he is, Bruce pretty much conceeded defeat when he said Steve "could beat him". Of course, when things are just implied you could argue otherwise, as you could argue the canonicity of the whole event, but the idea is not far from the truth, even in a canon comic Batman would be fighting an uphill battle against Cap, as Steve is made of PIS itself.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
People would argue the point because there is literally hundreds of feats that can be used to argue against it.
No really there isn't, unless you think that him getting hurt by punches disproves it. Hes not Kryptonian, hes the next step in human evolution and not some god.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
It doesn't matter how respected he is, his opinion is not the be-all-end-all of the discussion.
I guess not but hes not 'some' writer and what he said was pretty much consistent with Caps history.
Let's simply start this off with: Crossovers are not canon. So why even bring them up? Whether or not JLA/Avengers is considered it, I am not sure. The Marvel vs. DC ones aren't however.
Originally posted by DeadlineCap is the slight physical specimen. Batman's arsenal>Cap's shield. In all of the crossovers' with the two fighting, I have yet to see Batman employ any "real" equipment. In a fight on the forums, he would.
Busiek confirmed that Batman mean't Cap was superior.
Cap could beat him. Big deal. Batman could(and IMO would) defeat Cap also.
Originally posted by Juk3nI agree with everything you have stated here. But, with that said, I don't think it guarantees Cap's victory. Both of these guys fight people who are physically superior to them all the time. I'm of the opinion that Batman is more skilled in the martial arts department. Again, only a slight edge. Just like Cap's slight physical edge.
Batman isnt humanly perfect, he's not faster than Casandra Cain, and he doesn't have better agility then Nightwing. Is he even as strong as Bane sans venom? Cap is, Cap is, and Cap is. There are no non-enhanced humans (or ones that don't have a special gift or brain function ie; mister x or taskmaster) better then Captain America physically. It's just the way it is.
Another point I'd like to bring up: Cap is supposed to be the be-all-end-all GOAT human specimen, correct? Take Daredevil and Black Panther(sans recent upgrades). Black Panther is generally acknowledged as Cap's physical equal, more or less. Panther employs his speed and agility alot more than I've seen from Cap. The same goes for Daredevil, however this guy isn't considered peak human(or atleast on Cap's level). Is Daredevil equal(or superior even) to Cap in the speed and agility department? He uses them far more. If he is, does he get credited by his senses making him this way?
My point is you would be hard pressed to come up with an agility feat from Cap that someone like Daredevil, Panther, or even Dick Grayson couldn't match.
I could say the same for Batman when it comes to physical strength. You would hard pressed to bring me a scan of Cap's that I couldn't match with Batman......in that area. "Cap has superior stamina." We've heard Alfred tell Bruce that he has been fighting crime without rest for 4 days.
Captain America has fought Wolverine a couple of times and Wolverine's superhuman stats have never seemed to overwhelm Cap. If anything did, it'd be his claws, healing, or ferocity itself.
My point is that if Wolverine holds certain(if not all) physical advantages over Cap and they weren't enough to decide the fight, then why would Cap's certain(if not all) physical edges be that decisive of a factor?
Food for thought.
Originally posted by Darth MartinCaptain America has fought Wolverine a couple of times and Wolverine's superhuman stats have never seemed to overwhelm Cap. If anything did, it'd be his claws, healing, or ferocity itself.
My point is that if Wolverine holds certain(if not all) physical advantages over Cap and they weren't enough to decide the fight, then why would Cap's certain(if not all) physical edges be that decisive of a factor?
Food for thought.
Good point, and i acknowledge it, but follow me on this 'skill advantage train ' for a sec, let me try and convince you.
the supposed matial arts skill edge is almost nullified when faced with the simple question of effectiveness. Batman knows 127 styles 'or so were told', MASTERED? i wont buy that, but proficient training in alot of them, sure id buy that. Cap too knows alot of styles, but he's proficient in his own unique blend of EFFICIENT forms (mastered over a timespan twice that of Batman i might add).
Will Batman start using 'Drunken Boxing' or 'Crane style Kung-Fu' in a fight with an opponent who is (albeit marginally, but still) faster, stronger, has limitless stamina (when facing someone not rocking him with Ironman class blows, ie a human), and is more agile, and who can see bullets as they fly reactions?
Would that be efficient for Batman to do this against Cap here?
There are only so many ways to keep up efficieiency in a fight, only a few ways to throw an effective punch against someone just as skilled. Batmans slight skill advantage wont even come into play because of this simple truth...What (in terms of combat and martial prowess, or striking techniques or whatever) is he going to throw at Steve, that Steve has NEVER encountered before, or would be likely unable to deal with? Steve has fought his share of masters exotic forms of martial arts in his career.
So if a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch, id bet on the guy with the better stats. I might also add that id put Daredevils gearless martial prowess right up there with Batman, especially in specific areas of Nerve and Pressure point stuff, with the added bonus of being slightly faster than Batman and more agile, Cap still son'd him. I know ABC doesn't fly here but that might count for something if we use it in a 'dealt with exotic and unique blends of martial and pjhysical prowess' similar to what he might expect when facing a MA knowledgeable opponent like Batman, no?
I understand your point and have heard it before. Cap isn't as formerly trained and doesn't employ foreign martial arts as much as someone like Daredevil, Iron Fist, Batman, or Shang Chi would. But he, like Wolverine(when he actually uses skill), usually do what's effective. They employ a more military oriented combat system. Granted.
I still mantain that Batman is the more skilled fighter as he's faced IMO the more formal martial artists that his universe just happens to provide. He's done well against Shiva, Batgirl, and Karate Kid. In these fights he hasn't used his arsenal, which again I must stress, is much more versatile than the shield. You want to talk SSS, Batman has done well against Bane and Deathstroke too. They've kicked his ass, sure, he's returned them the favor too.
Originally posted by Juk3nThis I am curious about however. When you say "Cap still son'd him", am I correct in assuming you are referring to him defeating Daredevil? When? Scans, please?
I might also add that id put Daredevils gearless martial prowess right up there with Batman, especially in specific areas of Nerve and Pressure point stuff, with the added bonus of being slightly faster than Batman and more agile, Cap still son'd him.
And I do agree with you that Daredevil and Batman are relatively close in the martial arts department as far as knowledge and ability goes. As I stated in the devoted thread, Daredevil is faster and more agile. Batman is more durable and stronger.
Originally posted by Juk3nBane sans venom = enhanced.
Batman isnt humanly perfect, he's not faster than Casandra Cain, and he doesn't have better agility then Nightwing. Is he even as strong as Bane sans venom? Cap is, Cap is, and Cap is. There are no non-enhanced humans (or ones that don't have a special gift or brain function ie; mister x or taskmaster) better then Captain America physically. It's just the way it is.
Grayson is acrobatic, that's his thing.
Cassie is a bullet timer, she utilizes speed moreso than Bruce.
Although I know there's no way you could prove Steve has better agility than Grayson or is faster than Cassie, I'll ask you this:
When have these things been outright stated? I've heard sayings like "so and so may be faster than Bruce, or something similar to that, but the fact that those characters have their own style which emphasizes certain physical attributes doesn't mean that they outmatch Bruce in that certain physical aspect. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Bruce has better speed/agility/reaction feats than them both.
Originally posted by Deadline
No it isn't Brubaker has used that term to describe he most defintely wasn't talking in hyperbole.
Agreed. It was in a series were Cap origin was retold and the good doctor himself stated Cap was the next step in human evolution.
Which would explain why Cap has been called by the Doc himself another time "A man unlike the world has never seen before."
Batman will never be this.(The last one shows Cap healing a bullet to the head in 12 minutes.)
Healing/Recovery feats
Cap's hands are burnt bad in the fires. They'll heal once were out of here.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9479/captainamerica23503gz0.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/983/captainamerica23504lb9.jpg
Cap got burned from alien tech. "Amazing his burns are already healing".
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8403/captainamericatowozp01zhu7.jpg
Bullet to the shoulder no worries for Cap. "I heal fast" "I'm built that way"
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8254/camedusaeffect047te3.jpg
Cap handles poison.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9079/capamericav135902roughelb5.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3644/capamericav135903rougheyz9.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7200/capamericav135904rougheme7.jpg
Was offered paramedics for being in a bad explosion. Cap's answer "not necessary"
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1355/captainamerica373p05py4.jpg
Cap takes a thrashing from Namor. Namor impressed how quickly Cap recovers.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3066/captainamerica42319yz3.jpg
(Cap was going to go another round with Namor later on)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7059/captainamerica42323bn3.jpg
A alien agent was affecting many including super humans like She-Hulk, but not Captain America.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4048/wca04914ml6.jpg
An aging formula that makes you old an die affect Cap and the Red Skull. It eventually killed off RS as he couldn't handle a fight with Cap(Red Skull didn't have a cloned body of Cap yet.) But Cap mentions the SSS is what is keeping him alive despite it rapidly aging him.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4213/captainamerica301p10wy0.jpg
A process to turn men into perfect woman was tried on Captain America and superhuman Paladin. Notice there more worried about Captain America.
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6816/captainamerica391ocd02bz0.jpg
(his mental acuity is drastically decreased but she's still worried about Cap)
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7945/captainamerica391ocd04fb8.jpg
(SSS could resist it. Near toxic levels, increase the level.)
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9431/captainamerica391ocd10ae5.jpg
(Enough sedative to kill a horse but not Cap)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9523/captainamerica391ocd11ph8.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5682/captainamerica391ocd12kq1.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4527/captainamerica391ocd13sd1.jpg
Again a lethal virus created by the Red Skull. It killed more then 1000's and affected She Hulk badly as it put others like Scott(Cyclops) in medical care. Cap was exposed to it throughout most of Black Panthers/Ironmans fight with Skull.
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8396/avengersv306520rougherow4.jpg
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3049/avengersv306806rougherlh8.jpg
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/1853/avgrs6908ng4.jpg
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/8633/avgrs6918to1.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/9521/avgrs6919ik8.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7321/avgrs6920hg7.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4886/avengersv307005rougherpi0.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7585/avengersv307016roughergl9.jpg
Remember the punishment Cap took in Civil War he recovers rather quickly for his rematch with Ironman.
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/540/scan0017fm7.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8685/scan0007sv2.jpg
And hear Cap looks healthy despite what he took previous as he even has the advantage on "Extremis" Ironman. Tony's even down and puking.
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4513/scan0037tb6.jpg
Bullet to the head lots of blood splattered. Doc even called time of death for Cap.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4069/capfalcon1310fr2.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9591/capfalcon1318je2.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7548/page003004sn5.jpg
