Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Out of curiosity (as I've never read the comics), why didn't Naga Sadow blow up every fleet he encountered via supernovae? Surely he wasn't some sort of space environmentalist.
Erm...ignoring DS, who has again no idea what he's talking about: Sadow did pretty much blow any fleet up that he encountered. When his Meditation Sphere was attacked, he set the star it was orbiting (Primus Goluund) up to go supernova, in order to destroy the Meditation Sphere and the Republic Forces that were on the way to it.
The Republic forces just narrowly escaped that trap and followed Sadow. The latter had reached the Sith Empire by now and was confronted with Kressh's fleet and pretty much ran through it. Then he detonated pretty much all ships engaging in said space battle, in order to stop the Republic Forces from pursuing him.
A few ships made it through the bareer and again Sadow used his ship to destroy the Republic forces that had followed him, despite of his ship being already damaged (all weapon systems were out of order). The narrator of the Fall of the Sith Empire comic comments on this by saying that Sadow would even sacrifice a star-system in order to escape.
And yup. He blew his own ships up. I wonder how that happened, provided that only his own ship was left after the confrontation with Kressh's forces. DS making stuff up is one of the most precious things on the forum...
And considering how this is the entire Yuuzhan Vong armada descending on only one hundred worlds (home and infrastructure of the Sith Empire), how many supernovas and obliterated Sith planets is it gonna take for him to declare victory?
I didn't know that you were the thread-starter, who is the only one to specify details for this fight. If you just toss all Vong ships against all Sith ships, the Sith win by virtue of sacrificing one ship and blow the entire battlefield apart. If the Vong invade Sith space, the same can happen in the first or second battle they fight...
For good reason. But I am doubting the military capabilities of the Ancient Sith Empire as they attempt to repulse a numerically and technologically superior enemy rushing at their little slice of galactic heaven that their entire species is unable to see with the ethereal energy field they've become accustomed to over 1,700 years.
Again: Numerically superiority? That "argument" has already been debunked, unless you want to tell me that the Vong fleet dwarved that of the Galactic Empire. And even if one should by that: as long as Sadow is capable to work in his meditation sphere, the Sith do have infinite numbers because Sadow can summon "real" warriors, beasts and fleets...
Technically superior? By what standards? As far as bio-engineering and nano-technology are concerned, Sith Alchemy is still far ahead of anything else in the Star Wars Galaxy. The force aided weaponary of the Sith is completely ahead of the PT era at least, with the Dark Reaper alone having been stated to be powerful enough to bring forth the end of the Republic - almost 5,000 years after it was built. And you do realize that many of the Vong ships are more than a 1000 years old and even incapable of faster-than-light travel? I'm just asking...
And I still don't get why you people bring the "they can't sense the Vong" to the table again and again. Would that protect the Vong from being detected by regular scanning technology? Does it render them invisible? Does it help them when they are attacked with telekinesis? Does it help them at all?
See? Not so hard to PIS all over decent stories.
The Sith Empire was downed by the betrayal of a single person. Without that they would have won the Great Hyperspace War, considering they were about to win on all planets before Sadow's illusions vanished - and that while fighting with only 50 % of the Empire's forces at best. This is going to happen again how exactly?
I have no idea what Sith hunting refers to, but I'll take your word that it's significant.
The period of time that the Jedi needed to "drive the Sith to extinction". Given that the last active Sith sorceress is killed on Ambria shortly before or after the Great Droid Revolution, the Jedi needed almost one entire millenium to deal with the Sith. And even with that time span to reach their goal, they still failed, given that the Sith Emperor (ToR) was a Sith that escaped from the Ancient Empire.
And since I did miss it before:
There's nothing conclusive about the Sith's ownership of the Star Forge beyond Pall's cryptic words. He could just have easily been referring to the Star Map itself and the Dark Side aura surrounding it (like that of the Star Forge). I'd also like to hear the exact quote that states that Revan and Malak found the Derriphan plans in the Star Forge or on Lehon.
How so? Pall talks about an "old place" that was "the source of our (the Sith Lords) power". This can't be a reference to the Star Map. Yet he tells Revan that this "secret is burried" on Korriban. The only important thing burried is the Star Map - the "old place" it shows the way to is the Star Forge.
I really don't get how you people call that allusions "vague", given that there simply isn't any other possibility to interprete it, when you listen to everything Pall has to say...
The Derriphan ships themselves seem rather unimpressive when compared to Imperial+ era capital ships: It's 215 meters long, no shields, and boasts an impressive six "autolasers". Autolasers, according to Wookiee: "As with modern blaster cannons, the autoblaster produced a high-intensity particle beam that was propelled from the barrel at a target. However, unlike its modern equivalents, the autoblaster fired a salvo of wild bolts, powerful but not extremely accurate."
Unless Sadow's ship is some modified version, each of this ships can be turned into a "starkiller" provided a halfway decent force user is on board.
@DS:
Similar fashion? lol.
Yes. Similar fashion.
Both Empire's went into a battle that the were about to win, and lost because their respective leaders were betrayed (Sidious by Vader, Sadow by Gav) and killed (Sidious, Vader / Kressh, most Ancient Sith Lords) or fled (Sadow, Sith Emperor). In both cases almost the entire governing body was wiped out an the result was chaos. That's the ill-effect of Imperial Rule: with just a few in command, the system collapses, when those few are removed.
Just like with the later Galactic Empire, quite a lot of troops / ships of the Ancient Sith Empire simply fled from the heart of the Empire to remote locations. The Lost Tribe of the Sith, the Sith Emperor with his armada (who became a threat for the Republic later), Sith that fled to Vjun and of course Naga Sadow with his remaining forces.
Borbarad:
Are you serious? I suppose that you're entitled to your own opinion, but do you seriously think that the sith empire can defeat a civilization thousands of years ahead of them technologically and far outnumbering them (yes, they do, the YV were capable of conquering and holding a large portion of the galaxy for an extended amount of time while defending against GA, Imperial Remanant, NJO, etc. forces)?
Valid ABC logical argument:
Sith Empire lost to Old Republic thousands of years before the Clone Wars. CW Republic > Pre CW Republic. GA > CW Republic due to multiple quotes from experienced military commanders calling CW ships extremely outdated. It also took the combined forces of the GA, the NJO, the Imperial Remnant and pretty much the entire galaxy to defeat the YV.
Therefore:
YV > GA > CW Republic > Pre CW Republic > Naga Sadow's Sith Empire
Therefore:
YV > Naga Sadow's Sith Empire
Advantages that the YV have over Naga Sadow's Sith Empire:
-Greater stability (although not 100% united, the YV government is better off than Naga Sadow's sith Empire's government, which had numerous infightings and rivarlies, just like pretty much any sith Empire in history).
-Several thousand years of technological superiority over Naga Sadow's sith Empire. By the time of the YV invasion there were no known specific ships, vehicles, weapons, etc. from Naga Sadow's time that were still in use by major galactic armies (the types of weapons and ships were still similar, but not the exact weapons and ships). YV invasion era had shields on starfighters and other ships, planet busting superweapons, etc.
-Numerical superiority. Tens of thousands of ships and enough forces to simutaneously take on the galaxies major galactic powers and almost conquer the galaxy.
-Overall better quality troops. A YV warrior was said to be superior to New Republic troops by a 2 to 1 margin. New Republic troops are likely equal to or superior to common troops of the sith Empire due to technological and likely tactical advancements. YV troops are far more likely to fight to the death than troops of the sith Empire; the latter were stated to have poor morale, while the former would almost always fight to the death.
-More resources. YV empire had access to a larger Empire and more important planets.
-The YV can't be sensed or, by most sources, affected by the Force. This will baffle the sith.
Erm...ignoring DS, who has again no idea what he's talking about : Sadow did pretty much blow any fleet up that he encountered. When his Meditation Sphere was attacked, he set the star it was orbiting (Primus Goluund) up to go supernova, in order to destroy the Meditation Sphere and the Republic Forces that were on the way to it.
The Republic forces just narrowly escaped that trap and followed Sadow. The latter had reached the Sith Empire by now and was confronted with Kressh's fleet and pretty much ran through it. Then he detonated pretty much all ships engaging in said space battle, in order to stop the Republic Forces from pursuing him.
A few ships made it through the bareer and again Sadow used his ship to destroy the Republic forces that had followed him, despite of his ship being already damaged (all weapon systems were out of order). The narrator of the Fall of the Sith Empire comic comments on this by saying that Sadow would even sacrifice a star-system in order to escape.
And yup. He blew his own ships up. I wonder how that happened, provided that only his own ship was left after the confrontation with Kressh's forces. DS making stuff up is one of the most precious things on the forum...
Hmmm after further review, it appears Sadow triggered the supernova to launch back to the sith empire. It didn't appear to do much against the Republic, who followed him back to the Sith Empire. So the 1 time he uses his superweapon, it yields little results, big surprise. I was wrong about the timeline though.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Are you serious? I suppose that you're entitled to your own opinion, but do you seriously think that the sith empire can defeat a civilization thousands of years ahead of them technologically and far outnumbering them (yes, they do, the YV were capable of conquering and holding a large portion of the galaxy for an extended amount of time while defending against GA, Imperial Remanant, NJO, etc. forces)?
First: Thousand of years ahead of them? You do realize that technical development is different when you have a look at different governing bodies, correct? Sith ships from 5,000 years ago, were still far superior to Republic ships that were constructed 1500 years later. If you look into the "superweapon" category, they were even ahead of the Galatic Empire (blowing up star systems). So how do you know how they compare to the Vong in terms of technology? Especially when anything the Vong had is based upon bio-engineering, an art that the Ancient Sith (Alchemy) did excel in...
Second: I wonder if you did actually read the NJO books. The Vong were never "controlling" or "holding" a large portion of the Galaxy. They destroyed a large portion of the Galaxy, killing about one third of all beings inhabiting it, which doesn't say much about their actual numbers, provided they used terraforming on planets and did destroy others on their way.
To be a little bit sarcastic here: during the Second Battle of Coruscant, their ground forces were defeated by - essentially - three Jedi. And that were thousands of them. I wonder what 20 Sith Lords with their usual gimmics would have done there...
Valid ABC logical argument:Sith Empire lost to Old Republic thousands of years before the Clone Wars. CW Republic > Pre CW Republic. GA > CW Republic due to multiple quotes from experienced military commanders calling CW ships extremely outdated. It also took the combined forces of the GA, the NJO, the Imperial Remnant and pretty much the entire galaxy to defeat the YV.
Therefore:
YV > GA > CW Republic > Pre CW Republic > Naga Sadow's Sith Empire
Therefore:
YV > Naga Sadow's Sith Empire
Firstly: There is nothing like a "valid ABC argument", so erase that thought from your mind instantly.
Secondly: You're starting with a wrong premise. The Sith Empire didn't lose to the Old Republic because the Republic was more powerful. The lost because they were betrayed with the betrayal leading to losing a great part of their troops. You already fail here.
Thirdly: As I already said: Even the KotoR era ships were inferior to the Sith Empire counterparts. This is pretty much obvious, given that Revan did almost only use ships that were based on a (at his time) 1,500 year old design and conquered much of the Galaxy with it.
Lastly: If the Vong were superior to the GA, they would have won the war and would now be dominating the SW Galaxy. Obviously, that isn't the case...
Advantages that the YV have over Naga Sadow's Sith Empire:-Greater stability (although not 100% united, the YV government is better off than Naga Sadow's sith Empire's government, which had numerous infightings and rivarlies, just like pretty much any sith Empire in history).
The only "rivaleries" between Sadow and Kressh was there, because they had different ideas about leading the Empire. Still: The Sith Empire just has two factions with one leader. The YV have how many family tribes that are busy with infighting? That aside: You do realize that having a single leader can be a weakness, provided that, when Shimra was killed, the YVs believed that their gods had turned away from them and did surrender?
-Several thousand years of technological superiority over Naga Sadow's sith Empire. By the time of the YV invasion there were no known specific ships, vehicles, weapons, etc. from Naga Sadow's time that were still in use by major galactic armies (the types of weapons and ships were still similar, but not the exact weapons and ships). YV invasion era had shields on starfighters and other ships, planet busting superweapons, etc.
Firstly: It would only be 5,000 years.
Secondly: This number still doesn't make any sense, because we don't have a uniform distribution of technological development throughout the Galaxy, much less the universe and even less when force-enhanced technology is taken into consideration.
Thirdly: Wow. That recent armies didn't use the same ships means what know? I didn't know that any army in the Galaxy had access to a species of force sensitve warriors, capable of navigating the Sith ships (which is done by using the Dark Side of the force). That aside from the fact that the only "production facility" for those ships was destroyed more than 3000 years in the past. Couple that with the fact that technical development doesn't seem to advance that much in the SW universe (they still use the same weapon types they have utilized 5000 years in the past) and you might come to the conclusion that this point is mood.
And gosh. The Sith head sun system destroying superweapons in their fleet and unstoppable ground forces with the Dark Reaper. Point is mood.
-Numerical superiority. Tens of thousands of ships and enough forces to simutaneously take on the galaxies major galactic powers and almost conquer the galaxy.
Oh my f*cking god.
a) Give me actual numbers for the size of the Vong fleet (quotes from the books) or shut up with the "numerical superiority".
b) Go and read the books. Seriously. In Destiny's Way you have one of the few occassions when the Vong engage in a "conventional" fleet battle (Battle of Ebaq 9). The result being that the New Republic alone wipes a nice portion of their invasion fleet out. Also they didn't attack the Imperial Remnant before that point in time, which kind of contradicts the idea that they did "simultaneously" took on the galactic powers.
Then consider this:
Sky above Coruscant. "Tens of thousands of ships" of the Sith Empire coming in. Notice that this is just one of three planets being invaded silmultaneously by the Sith forces.
-Overall better quality troops. A YV warrior was said to be superior to New Republic troops by a 2 to 1 margin. New Republic troops are likely equal to or superior to common troops of the sith Empire due to technological and likely tactical advancements.
Excuse me. You did realize that every single soldier of the Sith Empire is a force sensitive Dark Side user? I'm just asking. Massassi are - essentially - warriors that have been altered by Sith Alchemy to be faster / stronger than regular humans already, and have the additonal advantage of being able to use the force to aid them in combat. Heck. Take a look at the Massassi or the Sith Lords in the comics. Those are muscle packed beasts - Sadow's mutated once are more than a head taller than Exar Kun.
YV troops are far more likely to fight to the death than troops of the sith Empire; the latter were stated to have poor morale, while the former would almost always fight to the death.
Making things up much?
What's that? Odan-Urr stating that it seems impossible to stop the single-minded fury of the Massassi, even when using Battle Meditation? Yup. Those Massassi due have a "poor morale". ROFL.
-More resources. YV empire had access to a larger Empire and more important planets.
The YV have spend the past millenia traveling through the void of space. Did you miss that? And a "larger Empire"? Did you also miss that they left their original Galaxy because they had destroyed a large portion of it and used all resource there during this war...?
-The YV can't be sensed or, by most sources, affected by the Force. This will baffle the sith.
In most sources, they are affected by force lightning and other Dark Sider powers rather nicely, so the Sith wouldn't be as baffled as the Jedi were. If you want to take the fact into consideration, that the Sith were aware of a technique to seal once presence in the force off, they might be even less baffled.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure if Nai has even read the FOTSE comics, or if he's just making things up as usual, to help his argument. I fail to see how Sadow "pretty much blew up any fleet he encountered", when he only tried the technique once and destroyed his own ships in the process, and very few ships of the republic. But then again Nai, I don't claim that you live in reality, and neither do you.Nai once again proving that he hasn't actually read the FOTSE comics. The "trap" was initiated after he killed Kressh, and he used the Supernova incident to escape to Yavin IV. Try again.
Blah, blah and blah, DS.
This is the first time that Sadow uses the weapon in the comics. He escapes with the remains of his fleets (so he doesn't "destroy his own ship" as you proclaimed) and the Republic fleet does just survive that action because of being warned by Gav. If that hadn't happened, the Republic forces would have been destroyed.
So...who didn't read the comics? Oh. Thanks, DS for demonstrating your absolute lack of knowledge once again. What you were - probably - thinking about (provided that you're using your brain at all) was this here:
Woopie.
After being betrayed twice by Gav, with the first betrayal resulting in the lost of a lot of his forces and the second betrayal causing the survival of his enemies, Sadow finds himself confronted with Kressh (read: the other half of the Sith Empire's forces). He still manages to take them out. Then he lets his Massassi assassinate the other Sith Lords and the picture above shows what happens next.
Notice that this was an action of last resort because his ships weapon systems were out of order after he fought Kressh. He still blew up the ships pursuing him, again losing a total of zero ships.
And just to emphasize this again: Without Gav's first betrayal, Sadow would have won the war - using unlimited illusional troops and ships. Without the warning that Gav gave to the Republic, Sadow would have wiped out the entire Tetan fleet pursuing him - again "winning" so to say. And without the final betrayal of Kressh and the other Sith Lords, he could still have done it after arriving back in the Sith Empire.
Pot.Kettle.Black. Or it would be if I was the one making things up, rather than you. As usual, too easy Nai.
Right. As usual, too easy, DS. And now go back into your cave and shut up. By the way: Stop using Gideon's trademark phrases. It makes you look even less intelligent than you actually are, which is quite an archivement, provided that you make Forrest Gump look like a rocket scientist.
Wow, I wonder how many days Nai spent thinking up his insecure rants. To be honest though, I think everybody stopped paying attention after "The Old Sith Empire will own the Vong" and "The Sith Empire had the Star Forge!!" Thanks for the laugh Nai, we desperately needed a forum clown now that Nebaris left.
***NO U!!!*** 🙂 There, I've already predicted your response to save you the trouble from posting again.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wow, I wonder how many days Nai spent thinking up his insecure rants. To be honest though, I think everybody stopped paying attention after "The Old Sith Empire will own the Vong" and "The Sith Empire had the Star Forge!!" Thanks for the laugh Nai, we desperately needed a forum clown now that Nebaris left.***NO U!!!*** 🙂 There, I've already predicted your response to save you the trouble from posting again.
You realize DS, that I have crushed your objection and nothing of your "argument" remains, correct? I take your pointless attempt to insult me as concession that you were wrong - as usual. 🙂
And we need a forum clown now that Nebaris left? You are still here, aren't you? So know your role and keep acting according to it. You're doing a pretty fine job there. *pats DS on the head*
Originally posted by Borbarad
You realize DS, that I have crushed your objection and nothing of your "argument" remains, correct? I take your pointless attempt to insult me as concession that you were wrong - as usual. 🙂And we need a forum clown now that Nebaris left? You are still here, aren't you? So know your role and keep acting according to it. You're doing a pretty fine job there. *pats DS on the head*
Not really Nai, I think I'm not the only one having a fun time with your "I made an argument therefore its valid so I'm going to be sarcastic in order to hide my insecurities" routine. It's definitely a winner 🙂
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Not really Nai, I think I'm not the only one having a fun time with your "I made an argument therefore its valid so I'm going to be sarcastic in order to hide my insecurities" routine. It's definitely a winner 🙂
Oh please, DS.
You have lost the debate. Admit it, keep arguing or stop posting.
Don't attempt to gloss over the fact. Be a man just once in your pathetic life. I know you can do it. Maybe...
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's amazing how you both talk shit here and yet all that goes out the windiw during your futball discussion in the battlebar.
I don't think that either of us takes those verbal jabs seriously, so why should we continue them in all threads here. And why should anybody be anti-social in a social thread?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's really not much to admit. The debate ended when you made a bunch of shit up(the sith have the star forge), then claimed they'd destroy the Vong. It became humor after all that.
You realize, DS, that I didn't make shit up, but merely suggested that the "old place" that is "the source of the Sith Lords power", as Pall describes it, is the Star Forge. Your proof to the contrary is...where exactly? Right. It doesn't exist. You came in and screamed: "No Nai. That can't possible be right!" and that's it. Which is especially nice, provided that you did accuse me of ipsedixitism.
Not that it even matters. Sadow's illusions alone ensure that the Sith are fighting with infinite numbers in space and on the ground. Another point that was ignored by yourself and anybody else attempting to argue me. The only way for the Vong to win is to locate the meditation sphere and destroy it. I wonder how high the chances are, that the Vong will accidentally stumble upon one single spaceship hidden somewhere in the SW Galaxy. I'd say those chances are pretty low, but maybe you want to try and challenge mathematical probability after having failed so hard with your attempt to challenge the facts.
Oh. I know that you will reply with "Blah Blah Sarcasm. Blah Blah House-fan. Blah Blah You made shit up. Blah Blah you are so funny.". Any objective observer will still see how hard you failed with your attempt to bring forth an argument. The story of your life, right? 😉
Any objective observer will still see how hard you failed with your attempt to bring forth an argument.
Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to convince yourself. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of long, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to convince yourself. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of long, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!
Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to gloss over the fact that you've lost. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see, that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of short, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!
Not as great as pointing out your absolute lack of knowledge, your inability to debate and the fact that you're a nobody, a nothing and a peon once again. But maybe you just "got the timeline wrong" again and confuse this debate with one you had with a 5-year-old last week that you almost won. ^^
Originally posted by Borbarad
Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to gloss over the fact that you've lost. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see, that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of short, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!Not as great as pointing out your absolute lack of knowledge, your inability to debate and the fact that you're a nobody, a nothing and a peon once again. But maybe you just "got the timeline wrong" again and confuse this debate with one you had with a 5-year-old last week that you almost won. ^^
I'm not sure what you were "pointing out". I know you have low self esteem so you completely ignored the post where I pointed out my mistake after going over the comics again. Instead you elected to post exactly what I said previously, and then claim that you somehow proved me wrong or made any valid points in the argument. That's ok Nai though, you lost me at "the Sith have the Star Forge."
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure what you were "pointing out". I know you have low self esteem so you completely ignored the post where I pointed out my mistake after going over the comics again.
You're talking about the same post in which you proclaimed that the weapon was ineffective and ignored that the Republic forces were warned by Gav and would have been vaporized? That one?
Instead you elected to post exactly what I said previously, and then claim that you somehow proved me wrong or made any valid points in the argument.
Funny. I did post what you said previously?
Let me just check it. You, so far, claimed that:
- the Vong a numerically superior - debunked.
- the Vong a technically superior - debunked.
- Sadow's weapon failed - debunked.
- Sadow destroyed a great portion of his own fleet by using his weapon, therefore he can only use it, when his fleet is already away - debunked by factual evidence.
Can you again tell me where your "valid points" were, because I can't see a single one. And don't dare to come up with any excuse for an answer. List your points or shut up.
That's ok Nai though, you lost me at "the Sith have the Star Forge."
You realize that you've still not brought anything to the table to proof that idea wrong? You lost me when you hit the reply button in an attempt to argue a Star Wars related topic. BzzzZZZZzzzzZzzz. Please stick to your abilities: Reposting arguments and thoughts that other people came up with. That at least allows you to keep a small bit of your dignity.