The Old Republic Sith Empire vs the Yuuzhan Vong

Originally posted by Borbarad
First: Thousand of years ahead of them? You do realize that technical development is different when you have a look at different governing bodies, correct? Sith ships from 5,000 years ago, were still far superior to Republic ships that were constructed 1500 years later. If you look into the "superweapon" category, they were even ahead of the Galatic Empire (blowing up star systems). So how do you know how they compare to the Vong in terms of technology? Especially when anything the Vong had is based upon bio-engineering, an art that the Ancient Sith (Alchemy) did excel in...

You're implying that the sith were more advanced than the Republic by any significant margin, which couldn't have been true because the ancient sith hadn't ever actually won a major war against the Republic.

Second: I wonder if you did actually read the NJO books. The Vong were never "controlling" or "holding" a large portion of the Galaxy. They destroyed a large portion of the Galaxy, killing about one third of all beings inhabiting it, which doesn't say much about their actual numbers, provided they used terraforming on planets and did destroy others on their way.

And in order to have destroyed a large portion of the galaxy, they had to have the numbers to compete with the GA.

To be a little bit sarcastic here: during the Second Battle of Coruscant, their ground forces were defeated by - essentially - three Jedi. And that were thousands of them. I wonder what 20 Sith Lords with their usual gimmics would have done there...

Except that one of those Jedi was the most powerful Force user (with the exceptions of beings such as Sekot) in recorded history, using a battle meld with 2 other very powerful Jedi. I'd put my money on NJO Luke, NJO Jaina and NJO Jacen over 20 sith.

Firstly: There is nothing like a "valid ABC argument", so erase that thought from your mind instantly.

9 > 8 > 7

Secondly: You're starting with a wrong premise. The Sith Empire didn't lose to the Old Republic because the Republic was more powerful. The lost because they were betrayed with the betrayal leading to losing a great part of their troops. You already fail here.

Later in your post you claim that the sith Empire was united and stable.

Thirdly: As I already said: Even the KotoR era ships were inferior to the Sith Empire counterparts. This is pretty much obvious, given that Revan did almost only use ships that were based on a (at his time) 1,500 year old design and conquered much of the Galaxy with it.

That had more to do with Revan's strategic and tactical genius.

Lastly: If the Vong were superior to the GA, they would have won the war and would now be dominating the SW Galaxy. Obviously, that isn't the case...

The Vong wasn't defeated by the GA alone. They were defeated by the GA, Imperial Remnant, New Jedi Order and a pretty much the entire galaxy. The sith Empire lost to the Old Republic, which would get curbstomped by the GA.

The only "rivaleries" between Sadow and Kressh was there, because they had different ideas about leading the Empire. Still: The Sith Empire just has two factions with one leader. The YV have how many family tribes that are busy with infighting? That aside: You do realize that having a single leader can be a weakness, provided that, when Shimra was killed, the YVs believed that their gods had turned away from them and did surrender?

Which contradicts your claim that the sith Empire lost due to betrayal.

Firstly: It would only be 5,000 years.

"only" 5000 years? 5000 years is quite a long time in terms of technological progress.

Secondly: This number still doesn't make any sense, because we don't have a uniform distribution of technological development throughout the Galaxy, much less the universe and even less when force-enhanced technology is taken into consideration.

The sith Empire lost to the Old Republic, which was from several sources technologically inferior to the GA.

Thirdly: Wow. That recent armies didn't use the same ships means what know? I didn't know that any army in the Galaxy had access to a species of force sensitve warriors, capable of navigating the Sith ships (which is done by using the Dark Side of the force). That aside from the fact that the only "production facility" for those ships was destroyed more than 3000 years in the past. Couple that with the fact that technical development doesn't seem to advance that much in the SW universe (they still use the same weapon types they have utilized 5000 years in the past) and you might come to the conclusion that this point is mood.

[quote]

Can you please clarify what ships the sith Empire used? If they were navigated using the Force then why didn't later sith Empires or even the Jedi use them?

[quote]

And gosh. The Sith head sun system destroying superweapons in their fleet and unstoppable ground forces with the Dark Reaper. Point is mood.

Ever heard of the Sun Crusher?

Oh my f*cking god.

a) Give me actual numbers for the size of the Vong fleet (quotes from the books) or shut up with the "numerical superiority".

I don't have exact numbers with me, but hundreds of millions of YV were killed in the YV battle of Coruscant alone.

b) Go and read the books. Seriously. In Destiny's Way you have one of the few occassions when the Vong engage in a "conventional" fleet battle (Battle of Ebaq 9). The result being that the New Republic alone wipes a nice portion of their invasion fleet out. Also they didn't attack the Imperial Remnant before that point in time, which kind of contradicts the idea that they did "simultaneously" took on the galactic powers.

The New Republic is technologically superior to the sith Empire, and later in the war they were indeed simultaneously taking on pretty much the entire galaxy.

Then consider this:

Sky above Coruscant. "Tens of thousands of ships" of the Sith Empire coming in. Notice that this is just one of three planets being invaded silmultaneously by the Sith forces.

They didn't define "ships". It could mean all kinds of ships down to frigates and even starfighters. It could also be hyperbole.

Excuse me. You did realize that every single soldier of the Sith Empire is a force sensitive Dark Side user? I'm just asking. Massassi are - essentially - warriors that have been altered by Sith Alchemy to be faster / stronger than regular humans already, and have the additonal advantage of being able to use the force to aid them in combat. Heck. Take a look at the Massassi or the Sith Lords in the comics. Those are muscle packed beasts - Sadow's mutated once are more than a head taller than Exar Kun.

Making things up much?

What's that? Odan-Urr stating that it seems impossible to stop the single-minded fury of the Massassi, even when using Battle Meditation? Yup. Those Massassi due have a "poor morale". ROFL.

I'm sorry, but can you please clarify? Because it seems hard to believe that EVERY single warrior of the sith Empire was Force sensitive, and even if so if they were actually well trained, because Force sensitives are very rare.

The YV have spend the past millenia traveling through the void of space. Did you miss that? And a "larger Empire"? Did you also miss that they left their original Galaxy because they had destroyed a large portion of it and used all resource there during this war...?

Well they obviously didn't use up all of their resources, because if they really did spend the past millenia traveling through space then they would have to have resouces to sustain themselves, AND they also had the resouces to wage war against the galaxy, which at that point was far more advanced than the sith Empire.

In most sources, they are affected by force lightning and other Dark Sider powers rather nicely, so the Sith wouldn't be as baffled as the Jedi were. If you want to take the fact into consideration, that the Sith were aware of a technique to seal once presence in the force off, they might be even less baffled.

What were the numbers of actual sith in the sith Empire? And could an average warrior in the sith Empire, even if Force sensitive, perform, say, Force lightning?

Oh, and from those pictures it seems as though the warriors of the sith Empire were fighting using melee weapons such as halberds.

I haven't seen a particularly compelling argument for the ancient Sith (but, then again, the only one who seems to be arguing on their behalf is Nai and he's on ignore), but I will point out that the primary reason that the New Republic struggled so heavily with the Vong is because they were heavily undermilitarized compared to a regime like the Empire, which is why Nom Anor and the others were so confident of battling the New Republic as opposed to the Empire. Then again, even in the Unifying Force, despite the presence of armadas from the Galactic Alliance, Imperial Remnant, etc., and the death of Shimmra and Onimi, the war was largely ended through diplomacy rather than the New Republic/Galactic Alliance annihilating the Vong's armies and navies. Nas Choka could have continued the war, which is something that terrified GA command even after Shimrra's death.

(From TUF, CTRL + F "probably", post Battle of Coruscant)

Sovv took a moment to absorb Kre'fey's remarks.

"Should Nas Choka break the cease-fire and advance, are our fleets in a position to prevail?"

"Probably," Kre'fey said, "though at considerable cost."

"Do you wish to press an attack?" Omas asked carefully.

Originally posted by Gideon
I haven't seen a particularly compelling argument for the ancient Sith (but, then again, the only one who seems to be arguing on their behalf is Nai and he's on ignore), but I will point out that the primary reason that the New Republic struggled so heavily with the Vong is because they were heavily undermilitarized compared to a regime like the Empire, which is why Nom Anor and the others were so confident of battling the New Republic as opposed to the Empire. Then again, even in the Unifying Force, despite the presence of armadas from the Galactic Alliance, Imperial Remnant, etc., and the death of Shimmra and Onimi, the war was largely ended through diplomacy rather than the New Republic/Galactic Alliance annihilating the Vong's armies and navies. Nas Choka could have continued the war, which is something that terrified GA command even after Shimrra's death.

In terms of technological capabilities, or even sheer numbers, the sith don't come close. Then again, they DO apparently have the Star Forge🙂

Well, I've never read TotJ, but I could have swore that multiple sources said that the Sith Empire was a lot smaller than the Republic during that time, hence why Ragnos's policy was isolationist.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, I've never read TotJ, but I could have swore that multiple sources said that the Sith Empire was a lot smaller than the Republic during that time, hence why Ragnos's policy was isolationist.

They were. I suggest you take Nai off ignore and read the beauty of his arguments. I found the star forge claim rather priceless.

Someone suggested that the EU should have taken a break with post-Endor work after TUF. Not a bad idea.

Whats TUF?

Other than a libido surviving marriage I mean. Zing!

The Unifying Force novel.

Ah. Doi.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You're implying that the sith were more advanced than the Republic by any significant margin, which couldn't have been true because the ancient sith hadn't ever actually won a major war against the Republic.

Because of betrayal

The Ancient Sith did curbstomp the Republic until the point were Gav did decide to take a shot at Sadow's meditation sphere.
Revan 1,500 years later, still using the same Sith ships that were utilized by the Ancient Sith - he almost conquered the Republic before, again, betrayal ensured that he wasn't capable of finish the job.
And of course we have the Dark Reaper. Mace Windu proclaimed that this device, in the PT - 5,000 years after the Ancient Sith did construct it - would have been enough to cause the end of the Republic. Again the device was only stopped because Ulic Qel-Droma told Anakin how to do it. The Vong would neither have the knowledge nor would they have the force users needed to stop it.

And in order to have destroyed a large portion of the galaxy, they had to have the numbers to compete with the GA.

How so? They destroyed said Galaxy centuries in the past and killed a lot of the own troops during that action. It was a civil war among the Vong. Yet with the ability to smash moons through planets or wipe all life on a planet out with terraforming, you also don't need much forces to destroy a nice part of the Galaxy.

Except that one of those Jedi was the most powerful Force user (with the exceptions of beings such as Sekot) in recorded history, using a battle meld with 2 other very powerful Jedi. I'd put my money on NJO Luke, NJO Jaina and NJO Jacen over 20 sith.

And I'd put my money on people who can point their arms in a certain direction and annihilate anything coming their way with room-sized blasts from their amulets.

9 > 8 > 7

You realize the difference between "argument" and "stating facts"? I'm just asking...

Later in your post you claim that the sith Empire was united and stable.

No. Later in my post I state that the only conflict between Sadow and Kressh was the question wether they should invade the Republic or not. In case of waging war against a common enemy, I doubt that they would spent much time with infighting. And the betrayal happened by a person that wasn't a member of the Sith Empire technically...

That had more to do with Revan's strategic and tactical genius.

It's a fact that the Ancient Sith ships were superior to the Republic ships. It can be seen in KotoR cutscenes and somebody has quoted it in this thread.

The Vong wasn't defeated by the GA alone. They were defeated by the GA, Imperial Remnant, New Jedi Order and a pretty much the entire galaxy. The sith Empire lost to the Old Republic, which would get curbstomped by the GA.

Again: The Sith Empire did never lose a direct confrontation. They were about to win all battles, before Sadow was disturbed which caused the "innumerable" illusional troops the Sith waged war with to vanish. That's like proclaiming the Rebel Alliance must be military stronger than the Galactic Empire because they won the war. It doesn't make sense.

Which contradicts your claim that the sith Empire lost due to betrayal.

How so? Go and read the comics before you start arguing.

"only" 5000 years? 5000 years is quite a long time in terms of technological progress.

Good god. I already explained why this doesn't work. You can't take two civilizations and then proclaim that they develop equal in terms of technology. According to the opening credits, Star Wars happens "a long time ago in a Galaxy far away". Using your standards, we must be ahead of the SW universe in terms of technical development, because they lived "a long time ago". Obviously that isn't the case. Staying within the SW universe: Centerpoint Station was 100,000 years old, as far as I remember, and it was capable of moving planets through Hyperspace. The Star Forge was about 40,000 years old and it still belongs to the most advanced technology seen in the SW universe, before it's destruction and even by standards of the "current" SW universe.

Then we still have the fact that single Sith weapons (Dark Reaper, Sadow's Corsair) were far ahead of their time. The Dark Reaper was pretty much unstoppable, even with PT era technology and the Galactic Empire didn't develop anything close to the destructive abilities of the Corsair's weapon until 10 ABY (Sun Crusher).

The sith Empire lost to the Old Republic, which was from several sources technologically inferior to the GA.

See above.

Ever heard of the Sun Crusher?

Yes. I've mentioned it multiple times now. It's pretty much the only thing that compares to the weapon of Sadow's ship. Yet, as you may know, Kyp Durron destroyed the Sun Crusher and there weren't any plans left to build a new one.

I don't have exact numbers with me, but hundreds of millions of YV were killed in the YV battle of Coruscant alone.

Yes. Which was pretty much the entirety of their armies and the entirety of their fleets that perished on and above Coruscant. Notice how the GA force with their "inferior technology" managed to "just" lose 5 million soldiers in that battle. Which doesn't really matter, provided that the Sith Empire has "innumerable" forces as long as Sadow keeps the illusions up.

The New Republic is technologically superior to the sith Empire, and later in the war they were indeed simultaneously taking on pretty much the entire galaxy.

Both wrong.

They didn't define "ships". It could mean all kinds of ships down to frigates and even starfighters. It could also be hyperbole.

Again: Sadow could summon tangible illusions again and again and again. So you destroy one ship (if that can even be done) and you have a new one popping up right again.

I'm sorry, but can you please clarify? Because it seems hard to believe that EVERY single warrior of the sith Empire was Force sensitive, and even if so if they were actually well trained, because Force sensitives are very rare.

The Sith were an entire race of force users. So yes. Every single one of them is a force user. The least powerful of them (Massassi) can guide projectile weapons with the force and enhance their own combat abilities (as seen in "Dark Lords of the Sith" for example). And the most powerful of them are the Sith Lords. In between you have more or less powerful force users (Kissai = Priests).

Well they obviously didn't use up all of their resources, because if they really did spend the past millenia traveling through space then they would have to have resouces to sustain themselves, AND they also had the resouces to wage war against the galaxy, which at that point was far more advanced than the sith Empire.

They attacked a Galaxy that was completely undermilitarized, as Gideon has already pointed out and that was led by people not willing to act according to the Imperial standard policy of pretty much leaving nothing but scorched earth behind. They wouldn't blow up a star-system to gain some military advantage - the Sith would.

And the Sith are a society that is based on fighting as much as the Yuuzhan Vong are.

What were the numbers of actual sith in the sith Empire? And could an average warrior in the sith Empire, even if Force sensitive, perform, say, Force lightning?

The actual numbers don't matter. The illusions Sadow conjured were said to increase the numbers of the ground troops a thousandfold. The same was apparently the case with the ships. So even if the Sith Empire had just one million Massassi (which would be a very low estimation, provided that Kun had several 10,000s alone 1,000 years later and the fact that the Sith ruled more than a 100 planets), that would be a fighting force of one billion soldiers with illusions already.

And the average Massassi couldn't use force lightning (as far as I know). They were still unnaturally strong fighters that could perform "low" force feats (e.g. use telekinesis to guide projectiles like lanvarok discs).

Oh, and from those pictures it seems as though the warriors of the sith Empire were fighting using melee weapons such as halberds.

Those things are called lanvaroks and can actually launch discs that the Massassi can guide using the force. After the disc is fired, the weapon is wielded like a giant axe pretty much. I don't see how this matters, given that the Vong's main weaponary are amphistaffs.

And still wouldn't matter considering the (illusional) numbers of the Sith Empire and the gimmics of the Sith Lords. Just for the fun a little example of the latter:

Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger: A gauntlet crafted by Ludo Kressh for his son, repelling anything from the wearer that doesn't have the consent of the wearer to touch him. It even offers protection against lightsaber strikes and explosions (orbital bombardment). Just imagine a Sith Lord wearing that thing and running through the Vong. He would be pretty much unstoppable.

Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger: A gauntlet crafted by Ludo Kressh for his son, repelling anything from the wearer that doesn't have the consent of the wearer to touch him. It even offers protection against lightsaber strikes and explosions (orbital bombardment). Just imagine a Sith Lord wearing that thing and running through the Vong. He would be pretty much unstoppable.

LOL. You have no idea where this thing is, or if it would even affect users outside of the force. The whereabouts are unknown so I'm not sure why you're just shotgunning here.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
LOL. You have no idea where this thing is, or if it would even affect users outside of the force. The whereabouts are unknown so I'm not sure why you're just shotgunning here.

You're inability to use logical reasoning is astonishing, DS. Provided that the Gauntlet was made by Ludo Kressh for his son, it's obviously in the hands of the Kressh family in times of the Ancient Sith Empire.

That aside: Affect users outside of the force? Huh? What are you talking about. The wearer would be a force user. Or are you asking whether or not it would affect the Vong? It just protects the user from everything, DS. Haazen and Lucien both survived orbital bombardment using the amulet, and I didn't know that explosions or turbo laser bolts where force senstive.

Use your head before hitting the reply button.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You're inability to use logical reasoning is astonishing, DS. Provided that the Gauntlet was made by Ludo Kressh for his son, it's obviously in the hands of the Kressh family in times of the Ancient Sith Empire.

That aside: Affect users outside of the force? Huh? What are you talking about. The wearer would be a force user. Or are you asking whether or not it would affect the Vong? It just protects the user from everything, DS. Haazen and Lucien both survived orbital bombardment using the amulet, and I didn't know that explosions or turbo laser bolts where force senstive.

Use your head before hitting the reply button.

It protects the force user by using the force to push others away? Or was it lightning, I can't remember. But it was the force that didn't allow Lucien and Zayne. So explain how that's going to work on someone who exists outside the force? You should really consider not posting anymore, it's just too embarrassing at this point.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And your ability to reach and constantly embarrass yourself continues to amaze me. If you've read precipice or any of the new literature regarding the Lost Tribe and Kressh, you'd know Kressh was trying to protect his son from everything. Which means it's unlikely Kressh's son was anywhere near the fights, and most likely in some safe and secure location. But I find it humorous that you take into account that the "Sith empire possesses the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger, so they'll win". It's amusing when someone lacks so much self awareness and connection to reality, bravo Nai🙂

Oh. Nice try switching your counter-argument from "We don't know where the gauntlet is!" (LMFAO) to "Oh. Kressh's son is wearing it so it won't be near the fights". Ingenious. Do I have to point out the flaws in that logic:

a) If Kressh could construct such a thing once, I'd guess he could just do it again or simply take the one of his son before entering the fray with the Vong.

b) Even if he leaves his son with the gauntlet, that makes his son invincible, which still means the Yuuzhan Vong can't kill him and hence not defeat the Sith Empire. So we just could imagine the (ridiculous thanks to DS) picture of Kressh Jr. defeating the YV single-handly.

Good job ignoring the rest of the argument by the way. I'd love how you switched from "ignoring the facts completely" to "ignoring the facts you don't like and try to argue anything else" with failing even with the latter. You're certainly a kick-ass debater, DS. ROFL.

It protects the force user by using the force to push others away? Or was it lightning, I can't remember. But it was the force that didn't allow Lucien and Zayne. So explain how that's going to work on someone who exists outside the force? You should really consider not posting anymore, it's just too embarrassing at this point.

Wrong, DS. Stop arguing the facts or, rather than that, make yourself familiar with the facts before attempting to argue at all. Both Haazan and Lucien survived orbital bombardment by wearing / holding the Gauntlet. Lucien walked away with it after being caught in the middle of that here:

As I said: Neither explosions nor turbolaser bolts are force senstive - the gauntlet stopped both. Not that it even matters, because Dark Side abilities work just fine against the Vong in most of the sources. And you are the only one that should stop posting, giving that you're either making a fool out of yourself because of your knowledge gaps or just attempt to troll me.

because Dark Side abilities work just fine against the Vong in most of the sources

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And your ability to reach and constantly embarrass yourself continues to amaze me. If you've read precipice or any of the new literature regarding the Lost Tribe and Kressh, you'd know Kressh was trying to protect his son from everything. Which means it's unlikely Kressh's son was anywhere near the fights, and most likely in some safe and secure location. But I find it humorous that you take into account that the "Sith empire possesses the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger, so they'll win". It's amusing when someone lacks so much self awareness and connection to reality, bravo Naismile

Oh. Nice try switching your counter-argument from "We don't know where the gauntlet is!" (LMFAO) to "Oh. Kressh's son is wearing it so it won't be near the fights". Ingenious. Do I have to point out the flaws in that logic:

a) If Kressh could construct such a thing once, I'd guess he could just do it again or simply take the one of his son before entering the fray with the Vong.

b) Even if he leaves his son with the gauntlet, that makes his son invincible, which still means the Yuuzhan Vong can't kill him and hence not defeat the Sith Empire. So we just could imagine the (ridiculous thanks to DS) picture of Kressh Jr. defeating the YV single-handly.

Good job ignoring the rest of the argument by the way. I'd love how you switched from "ignoring the facts completely" to "ignoring the facts you don't like and try to argue anything else" with failing even with the latter. You're certainly a kick-ass debater, DS. ROFL.

quote:

It protects the force user by using the force to push others away? Or was it lightning, I can't remember. But it was the force that didn't allow Lucien and Zayne. So explain how that's going to work on someone who exists outside the force? You should really consider not posting anymore, it's just too embarrassing at this point.

Wrong, DS. Stop arguing the facts or, rather than that, make yourself familiar with the facts before attempting to argue at all. Both Haazan and Lucien survived orbital bombardment by wearing / holding the Gauntlet. Lucien walked away with it after being caught in the middle of that here:

As I said: Neither explosions nor turbolaser bolts are force senstive - the gauntlet stopped both.

Out of the humor that is your argument and your attempts to make things up as well as reach, I found these two to be the most hilarious. You done yet Nai? 🙂

Or perhaps you can provide a relevant picture.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Out of the humor that is your argument and your attempts to make things up as well as reach, I found these two to be the most hilarious. You done yet Nai? 🙂

Or perhaps you can provide a relevant picture.

No. The most hilarious thing I've seen so far is this here, tdtd. I'm still totally laughing my ass off. 🙂

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. The most hilarious thing I've seen so far is this here, tdtd. I'm still totally laughing my ass off. 🙂

And as expected and predicted many times, Nai has resorted to his last resort argument before the veins in his head explode, and that's to call me tdtd and draw attention away from his stupidity. Truly predictable and entertaining.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And as expected and predicted many times, Nai has resorted to his last resort argument before the veins in his head explode, and that's to call me tdtd and draw attention away from his stupidity. Truly predictable and entertaining.

Excuse me. Since you're constantly attempting to lure the attention away from the actual debate with red herrings, knowing that you're inable to debate your way out of a matchbox, I've just decided to play your own game with you, Dr McTrollington. So: Did you study law or economics now? Your different internet biographies are contradicting eachother in regards to that point.

We could also humor ourselfs with re-reading your great arguments how Exar Kun beats Yoda!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me. Since you're constantly attempting to lure the attention away from the actual debate with red herrings, knowing that you're inable to debate your way out of a matchbox, I've just decided to play your own game with you, Dr McTrollington. So: Did you study law or economics now? Your different internet biographies are contradicting eachother in regards to that point.

We could also humor ourselfs with re-reading your great arguments how Exar Kun beats Yoda!

There's no we here Nai, there's just you. Be happy I'm giving you the courtesy of being the only one who is even acknowledging your stupidity. I don't need to lure attention away from the actual debate because you don't have an actual argument. That's why I'm just having fun with you because you bring no real point or anything of substance to the table. I've outlined the "Nai 5 step program" many times before, and you're on step 5 already. You should have stopped with "the Sith have the Star Forge". But you can keep humoring 'us', and then posting your definition of "facts" to humor yourself. Either way, here's a dancing banana. 💃

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no we here Nai, there's just you. Be happy I'm giving you the courtesy of being the only one who is even acknowledging your stupidity. I don't need to lure attention away from the actual debate because you don't have an actual argument. That's why I'm just having fun with you because you bring no real point or anything of substance to the table. I've outlined the "Nai 5 step program" many times before, and you're on step 5 already. You should have stopped with "the Sith have the Star Forge". But you can keep humoring 'us', and then posting your definition of "facts" to humor yourself. Either way, here's a dancing banana. 💃

Another pointless attempt to lure the attention away from the topic.