Originally posted by Board WalkerLike I said, Vaapad is the refined version of Juyo, thus it'd likely fair better against a light sider.
Oooooo I see now I inderstand, thank you!So vaapad vs light sider Is same as juyo vs light sider? Tap ones own darkness? But vs dsider its juyo+++?
Against a darksider, a user of Vaapad can tap the darkness of their opponent along with their own. So yeah "Juyo+++" is fairly accurate in that sense.
Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said, Vaapad is the refined version of Juyo, thus it'd likely fair better against a light sider.
So vaapad is not truly superior to juyo in any objective way? Its a variation of juyo as djem is to shien?
So how do shien and djem differ? What are the pros and cons of each in comparison of one another?
Similarily, since vaapad is a variation of juyo and not objectively its superior,what are the pros and cons of each in comparison of each other?
I would be very thankful to hear what you think on the matter ares834!
Opinions that only agree with mine?that would be silly, I've accepted everyones opinion. However I find the thoughts of and perceptions of others ineresting and thus want a more colored picture of their paradigm before assimilating it with my own.
Did galans agree with my own? No. But I further questioned him to see his perception from different angles to see how it is aplied in varying degrees and situations.
Thus I do the same with others, such as ares now, where you drew the objective conclusion I only want opinions the same as my own, is some thing I would also be interested in undersanding, what is your perception on this? What actions of mine led you to draw this picture?
Originally posted by Board Walker
Thus I do the same with others, such as ares now, where you drew the objective conclusion I only want opinions the same as my own, is some thing I would also be interested in undersanding, what is your perception on this? What actions of mine led you to draw this picture?
As for the question I assume was addressed to Ares, about the differences between Shien and Djem So...Shien is Form V's variant dedicated to blocking blaster bolts, whereas Djem So is Form V's variant dedicated to lightsaber dueling. So objectively speaking, Ares was wrong - in a lightsaber fight with all things equal, the Djem So duelist is going to throttle the Shien duelist.
Just as a Vaapad duelist would defeat a Juyo user, more often than not.
As for your question about the pros and cons of Vaapad compared to Juyo...Vaapad is everything Juyo is, plus more sequences, plus the ability to feed on the opponent's dark emotions as well as your own. Ergo, since Vaapad is everything Juyo is plus things that it is not, Vaapad would be inherently superior to Juyo....wouldn't you agree?
Originally posted by Galan007
Superior in that it is complete, while Juyo is incomplete.
Originally posted by Enyalus
As for the question I assume was addressed to Ares, about the differences between Shien and Djem So...Shien is Form V's variant dedicated to blocking blaster bolts, whereas Djem So is Form V's variant dedicated to lightsaber dueling. So objectively speaking, Ares was wrong - in a lightsaber fight with all things equal, the Djem So duelist is going to throttle the Shien duelist.
Just as a Vaapad duelist would defeat a Juyo user, more often than not.
As for your question about the pros and cons of Vaapad compared to Juyo...Vaapad is everything Juyo is, plus more sequences, plus the ability to feed on the opponent's dark emotions as well as your own. Ergo, since Vaapad is everything Juyo is plus things that it is not, Vaapad would be inherently superior to Juyo....wouldn't you agree?
Originally posted by ares834
First I never said a Lightsaber fight. Second, I believe a master Shien user could best a master Djem So user the main diffrence is the Shien user would focus more on defense whel the Djem user on power.
I don't care what you believe can or can not be done with Form V variants. From Jedi vs. Sith page 111: "Form V's Shien variation exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt, and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberately toward an opponent. Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling."
From that passage it's very logical to assume that a Master of Djem So would defeat a Master of Shien in lightsaber combat very conclusively.
Originally posted by ares834
Where do you get this from?
Originally posted by ares834
But Vaapad isn't Juyo+, it's a variant of form VII. Both are ver andy aggressive focus on fast and kinetic attacks. But Juyo incorperates acrobatics, but not to the extant of Ataru, and uses unpredictabl and erratic attacks. Vaapad is more smooth and elegat, focuses more on speed, and has the dark side loop. As one can see they do have variations.
Vaapad is Juyo+. And Vaapad is an extremely ferocious style, so I don't know where you get the 'smooth and elegant' from.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I have no idea how to say this without sounding like a prick. Just know in advance that the following tone is not intended...
I don't care what you believe can or can not be done with Form V variants. From Jedi vs. Sith page 111: "Form V's Shien variation exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt, and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberately toward an opponent. Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling."
From that passage it's very logical to assume that a Master of Djem So would defeat a Master of Shien in lightsaber combat very conclusively.
A Djem So user would have a slight advantage against a Shien user, not enough to make up for Skill or power in the force. If all things are equal the Djem So user would have the edge, but I don't think it's enough to say a Djem So user would destroy a Shien user in a duel.
I just don't view Lightsaber styles as a from of rock, paper, scissors.
Vaapad is Juyo+.
And Vaapad is an extremely ferocious style, so I don't know where you get the 'smooth and elegant' from.Smooth and elegant was a poor choice of words, I meant it's more smooth and elegant and it seems to flow. Heck Mace Windu's bladework was described as a "sphere" in RotS.
Originally posted by ares834
A Djem So user would have a slight advantage against a Shien user, not enough to make up for Skill or power in the force. If all things are equal the Djem So user would have the edge,
Originally posted by Enyalus
in a lightsaber fight with all things equal, the Djem So duelist is going to throttle the Shien duelist.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Original comment:
Originally posted by mattatom
It's said Vapaad is Juyo+ against Lightsiders because Vapaad is considered to of completed Juyo as Juyo itself was an incomplete form.
Edit: Nevermind.
Originally posted by mattatom
It's said Vapaad is Juyo+ against Lightsiders because Vapaad is considered to ofcompleted Juyo as Juyo itself was an incomplete form.
...
There were two variations of Form VII, Juyo and Vaapad, but both utilized bold, direct movements.
There is form VII, which has branched off to two different variations. They are not connected at all.
From all I've seen thus far, I view Juyo and vaapad as two distinctly different forms.
Some what like Ares, I also think that no form is superior to any other form, and that a master of any form could defeat a master of any other form, each with equal difficulty.
So shoes, Form VII, has two different branches? Juyo and Vaapad? Each being entirely seperate from the other? If so this makes sense with how I was perceiving it.
And yes Enyalus, I am agreeing more with Ares, Gideon's, and Shoes view of Juyo and Vaapad more so then with others views. However I am not entirely throwing out Galans, or others perceptions of the forms, I still assimilated sections of their perceptions of it into my own. However I perceive Juyo and Vaapad being two entirely different variations of Form VII, with neither being connected to the other except in the sense that they both branched from form VII.
Juyo and Vaapad neither superior to the other ,each with their own strengths and weaknesses, own styles etc. Also the part where Ares stated in the rots novel maces vaapad is noted as being spherical, more controlled, "eloquent" as it were, then juyo's more chaotic, erratic blade work, shows to me differences in the very bladework already aside from the emotional philosophy.
So yes Mace may state he perfected Juyo and created Vaapad, but ultimately that is just Mace's opinion, Vaapad seems to me to be an entirely different branch of form VII, not of Juyo. Just as Juyo is a branch of form VII, so too is vaapad a seperate branch of form VII, and not of Juyo. Thus neither is superior to the other, and a juyo user could with equal chance defeat a vaapad user, and vice versa.
Originally posted by ares834
A Djem So user would have a slight advantage against a Shien user, not enough to make up for Skill or power in the force. If all things are equal the Djem So user would have the edge, but I don't think it's enough to say a Djem So user would destroy a Shien user in a duel.
Prove it. Stronger attacks do not translate into an advantage. In fact, the Djem So practitioner would be at a disadvantage, and would require force-reserves of Anakin or Bane's caliber to be able to keep up with such a physically demanding form.
Windu's bladework was described as a "sphere" in RotS.
Non-canon because Anakin wasn't there in the film.
Shoes I find yours, ares, and gideons view more alligned with my view of Juyo, vaapad, and the other blade forms.
I perceive that no form is superior to the other, and that Juyo and Vaapad are entirely seperate from one another with neither being connected to the other except that they are both seperate branches of form VII, with neither being superior to the other.
In your view Shoes, what are the pros and cons of Juyo and Vaapad, each seperately?
Also in regards to Makashi, I believe it is not weak to strong kinetic force, I think any sbaer style would have been crushed by Anakin's kinetic force. So do you think a makashi user could defeat a vaapad user, and what are your reasons for why? As in what advantages would a makashi user have over a vaapad user?
I for one do not view vaapad superior to any other form, I see it as an equal to all other forms, with pros and cons just as all others.