Mosque at Ground Zero

Originally posted by 753
Sure, the govenrment is (at least officially) secular and there are other religions practiced within the country, but everyone knows it's an overhelmingly christian nation full of protestant values in every sphere of life including government.

Indonesia is secular too, in this sense, but it's mostly referred to as an islamic nation for the same reasons.

Well, the government is by the people, from the people and for the people, if the government is secular, then the nation is.

"Protestant values" you say, such as?

Originally posted by Robtard
Well, the government is by the people, from the people and for the people, if the government is secular, then the nation is.

"Protestant values" you say, such as?

Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The fact that gay marriage is only legal in like 7 states.

Most president's have been protestant of some kind (or do you think that's a total accident?).

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The fact that gay marriage is only legal in like 7 states.

Most president's have been protestant of some kind (or do you think that's a total accident?).

Don't follow the "don't ask, don't tell' connection. Enlighten me?

'No Gay Marriage' has more to do with general intolerance and hate than people being against it because the bible tells them so. Otherwise, these same people would have the same attitude towards all other sins in the bible. E.G. I don't recall some outcry from the religious groups over not allowing adulterers certain rights.

Most presidents have been white males too.

Symbolically, it could be interpreted as a positive sign. But it's too ham-fisted a one.
It's not like they built a Japanese friendship centre right by the shipyards in Pearl Harbour. This issue is too provocative for them to do this.

Originally posted by Robtard
Well, the government is by the people, from the people and for the people, if the government is secular, then the nation is.

"Protestant values" you say, such as?

I think you got the causal relations backwards, it's not the government that defines the nation, it's the people. If the people is christian and the public employees that make up the government are representative of the cultural landscape, then the government will be made up of christians. Of course there are laws limiting government intervention in religion and worship, and the State is supposed to be secular, but they still carry their values with them into office.

Such as Weber's proverbial 'protestant work ethic' - particularly the calvinist strain - and its influence in the creation of the nation and current economic system, work relations and even social rights. Manifest Destiny dellusions were also heavilly influenced by protestant values and beliefs, including proselitism. Both political and everyday behavior of the people are also influenced by them, from choices on whom to vote to positions on almost any political subject - including adversary positions equally rooted on religious traditions.

God is praised in your money, your pledges and oaths, your ellected officials can't stop talking about it, so on and so forth. It's not a theocracy, of course, but it's a christian nation.

Originally posted by roughrider
Symbolically, it could be interpreted as a positive sign. But it's too ham-fisted a one.
It's not like they built a Japanese friendship centre right by the shipyards in Pearl Harbour. This issue is too provocative for them to do this.

But there are churches near hiroshima and american military bases all over the country - the latter aren't well liked though.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That's right. The majority religion practiced in any a country is gonna have a big impact on the society, even if its "officially" secular. Just look at Turkey and India. America's no exception.

Originally posted by 753
I think you got the causal relations backwards, it's not the government that defines the nation, it's the people. If the people is christian and the public employees that make up the government are representative of the cultural landscape, then the government will be made up of christians. Of course there are laws limiting government intervention in religion and worship, and the State is supposed to be secular, but they still carry their values with them into office.

Such as Weber's proverbial 'protestant work ethic' - particularly the calvinist strain - and its influence in the creation of the nation and current economic system, work relations and even social rights. Manifest Destiny dellusions were also heavilly influenced by protestant values and beliefs, including proselitism. Both political and everyday behavior of the people are also influenced by them, from choices on whom to vote to positions on almost any political subject - including adversary positions equally rooted on religious traditions.

God is praised in your money, your pledges and oaths, your ellected officials can't stop talking about it, so on and so forth. It's not a theocracy, of course, but it's a christian nation.

The people are not clearly defined either. America is diverse with many religions. Christianity might be the majority, but then if popularity defines the nation then America is clearly not representing the people.

Originally posted by 753
I think you got the causal relations backwards, it's not the government that defines the nation, it's the people. If the people is christian and the public employees that make up the government are representative of the cultural landscape, then the government will be made up of christians. Of course there are laws limiting government intervention in religion and worship, and the State is supposed to be secular, but they still carry their values with them into office.

Such as Weber's proverbial 'protestant work ethic' - particularly the calvinist strain - and its influence in the creation of the nation and current economic system, work relations and even social rights. Manifest Destiny dellusions were also heavilly influenced by protestant values and beliefs, including proselitism. Both political and everyday behavior of the people are also influenced by them, from choices on whom to vote to positions on almost any political subject - including adversary positions equally rooted on religious traditions.

God is praised in your money, your pledges and oaths, your ellected officials can't stop talking about it, so on and so forth. It's not a theocracy, of course, but it's a christian nation.

The people are the government, as "the people" choose their government and how it will lead them. At least on paper. But by that same rational you used, if Muslims were elected into office and they carried Islamic values with them into office, America would become an Islamic nation. No.

-Max Weber wrote that 130+ years after the founding of the country.

-Manifest Destiny was something made-up in the mid 1800's to justify aggressive expansion and "in defense of Democracy" was used as the cause, not Jesus.

America must be a Greek nation too, as Democracy is believed to have been founded in ancient Greece. No?

Since when does "God" equate to Christianity by default, especially in a country that was founded on the principle of having freedom of religion or no religion at all? As I said, The Constitution ie the Supreme Law of the United States is secular, as is the Nation. It's a secular nation with a bunch of Christians in it, a bunch of Christians who most of them can't even agree with each other.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
The people are not clearly defined either. America is diverse with many religions. Christianity might be the majority, but then if popularity defines the nation then America is clearly not representing the people.

Yes, of course not all the individuals are christian, just like there are religious minorities in india, turkey, indonesia, brasil, saudi arabia, etc.

It is the mainstream however, 80% of the population. The other religious affiliations can't add up to 5% and people with no affilliation (the majority of which probably still believes in a God originally rooted in christian traditions) make up the rest. Like Mota said, it's obvious, this has a very significant impact on everything about the country. It would be more accurate to say that it is a (overhelmingly) predominantly christian nation, but the same goes for all countries on earth.

Not sure I get this: "but then if popularity defines the nation then America is clearly not representing the people"

Originally posted by Robtard
The people are the government, as "the people" choose their government and how it will lead them.

But by that same rational you used, if Muslims were elected into office and they carried Islamic values with them into office, America would become an Islamic nation. No.

If the government is representative of the cultural landscape and the people is overhelmingly christian, its officilas too will be overhelmingly christian and this will influence their actions even if the State is formally secular. The only way the government will 'become muslim' (predominatly occupied by muslims and influenced byt their values) is if the people become predominantly muslim to put'em there first. This is the order of events I was talking about.

-Max Weber wrote that 130+ years after the founding of the country.

-Manifest Destiny was something made-up in the mid 1800's to justify aggressive expansion and "in defense of Democracy" was used as the cause, not Jesus.

America must be a Greek nation too, as Democracy is believed to have been founded in ancient Greece. No?

Since when does "God" equate to Christian by default?

As I said, The Constitution (ie the Supreme Law of the United States" is secular, as is the Nation. A bunch of Christians in a country doesn't mean a country is a Christian Nation, hell, most of themcan't even agree with each other.

The last bit:

20% may be a minority, but that's a hell of a lot of people. 20% of 300 million. The only way you can claim America is a Christian nation is if you ignore that 20%.

I can settle for "predominantly Christian" but I still disagree that you should label a country based on religious affiliation.

We should also differentiate between seculars who mildly identify as Christians and actual believers in the philosophies behind it.

Originally posted by roughrider
Symbolically, it could be interpreted as a positive sign. But it's too ham-fisted a one.
It's not like they built a Japanese friendship centre right by the shipyards in Pearl Harbour. This issue is too provocative for them to do this.

Also, Japan was a nation, Islam is a religion and al qaeda is a fringe group within it. Japan attacked pearl harbor, Islam didn't attack the wtc.

Originally posted by 753
Also, Japan was a nation, Islam is a religion and al qaeda is a fringe group within it. Japan attacked pearl harbor, Islam didn't attack the wtc.

Japan was a nation?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Japan was a nation?

English is not my first language, but I don't think that form is wrong or misleading as I was referring to an attack that happened in the past.

Originally posted by 753
English is not my first language, but I don't think that form is wrong or misleading as I was referring to an attack that happened in the past.

I do think it is grammatically accurate, though I am not exactly sure, you probably should have used the present perfect progressive.

Originally posted by Robtard
Don't follow the "don't ask, don't tell' connection. Enlighten me?

'No Gay Marriage' has more to do with general intolerance and hate than people being against it because the bible tells them so. Otherwise, these same people would have the same attitude towards all other sins in the bible. E.G. I don't recall some outcry from the religious groups over not allowing adulterers certain rights.

Most presidents have been white males too.

'No Gay Marriage' stems from the Bible. That's why the massive anti-Prop 8 campaigns came from churches. They funded all the commercials and ads against it. None of the commercials said "We hate ****", no, they all referenced the Bible or employed some kind of some religous imagery. Otherwise, what "general" intolerance are you talking about? "General" hate still comes from something.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell is an extention of Biblical anti-gay attitudes. I was in the Army when it was ratified in '94, and I still remember all the talk against it. It was 99% religous. The most vocal and prominent servicemen against it were Army Chaplains, not regular grunts.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
'No Gay Marriage' stems from the Bible. That's why the massive anti-Prop 8 campaigns came from churches. They funded all the commercials and ads against it. None of the commercials said "We hate ****", no, they all referenced the Bible or employed some kind of some religous imagery. Otherwise, what "general" intolerance are you talking about? "General" hate still comes from something.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell is an extention of Biblical anti-gay attitudes. I was in the Army when it was ratified in '94, and I still remember all the talk against it. It was 99% religous. The most vocal and prominent servicemen against it were Army Chaplains, not regular grunts.

Homosexuality as a sin is in the bible, not two people of the same sex being married. Because saying the truth, "we hate ****" is easy to attack/counter, while hiding behind the bible and using it as an excuse isn't as easy , though as mentioned, it's not explicitely in the bible. As I said, you don't see these same "it's not me, I just follow what the bible says" types being so against other sins, which are equally sinful in the bible.

Again, these anti-gay types aren't doing it because the bible tells them it's a sin, as they're not so hateful and intolerant of other sins. They're just hateful and intolerant of people different than themselves, no other reason needed.

Originally posted by Robtard

Again, these anti-gay types aren't doing it because the bible tells them it's a sin, as they're not so hateful and intolerant of other sins. They're just hateful and intolerant of people different than themselves, no other reason needed.

How do you know that?