Rage.Of.Olympus
Senior Member
Originally posted by darthgoober
What are these instances of Thor's durability outprefoming Norrins that you speak of?
The ones that really stand out for me at the moment are: Odin's blast, and Stormbreaker.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Getting knocked down doesn't really mean to much, so I don't really know what your point is there. I mean unless he was rendered unconscious, he withstood the beating. As for his board, it's power comes from Surfer...
My main point was that it was only one punch. The way you called it a beating would make one think he withstood an onslaught.
How is the board connected to Norrin? It was made pretty clear that Durok was above Norrin in power, or at least in physical strength. I always assumed the board was a construct formed from the Power Cosmic but not something that constantly drains Norrin’s power. I guess the board being a streamlined object that could go faster than light would make it very difficult to contain. Lee also had Durok break the board and seemed to want to indicate it as an impressive feat. Was that the first time the board was broken?
Oh, and looking back, the board not only attacked Durok from behind, but it was lodged against his neck.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/SurferDurok4.jpg
That’s not exactly an easy position for Durok and he apparently broke free of the boards attack.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And you seem to be glossing over Surfer's healing feats, which are the very thing that make Surfer's preformance so impressive. See when Surfer heals somebody he uses his own energy reserves to do so, and during the period of his depowerment it actually a while for him to fully afterwards even if he was just replentishing a human. And since he healed both Balder and Thor(two gods who likely have far more lifeforce to replace than a normal human) from the brink of death right before taking on Durok, it means his preformance was pretty damn impressive overall. I mean think about it, Surfer was already at a fraction of his full power from being trapped on Earth, invested enough energy into Balder to bring him back from the brink of death, invested enough energy into Thor to heal him from the brink of death, and THEN took on Durok.
In what issue did said instance take place? Not scans. Issue number.
I didn’t gloss over anything. Your stance depends entirely on how Surfer’s healing interacts with Gods. He didn’t seem weaker at all or even seems to indicate any loss of energy. If healing them actually did drain him of his energy, it definitely puts Surfer’s interaction with Durok in a much better light.
I am however hesitant about this because if Lee wanted Surfer to be weakened, he would have come out and straight up said it or indicated it in at least some shape, way, or form. Something that he did not do at all in this issue. Its simply how Lee wrote Thor issues after JIM’s series ended and he had gotten comfortable with Thor. If you want, I can point out to some issues where it was intended that Thor was weakened or lost some power. It’s mentioned. A lot.
I was discussing this on another board actually, and Surfer’s depowered phase gets overrated. Apparently “him being weaker gets mentioned like 2 times in all of those appearances - including his FF appearance - and gets attributed to the ozone layer and being weak from the sonic shark device right after he got hit with it.” Surfer had his weakest showings during this period so it would be easy to want to explain them away but that could easily just be Silver Age bullshit. He was knocked out by Ben as a herald for example but also had his best showing against Mephisto during this period did he not? On top of it all, wasn’t it retconned that he didn’t lose any superpowers at all in an issue? I don’t really want to debate this though. Just wanted to point out the above as it was still fresh in my mind. I still think your overdoing it with the “fraction of full power” statement. At least from what I know of Lee’s Surfer work. He didn’t really seem to write him as significantly weakened.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Which is impressive, but I have to ask why ODG said this...
I think he might be referring to the fact that Odin revealed that the ring started to have negative affects on Loki as he did not have the strength to sustain the ring. Some issues later after the fight with Thor, Loki started feeling his strength being drained as I recall. That doesn’t make the Thor showing any less impressive however.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And lets not forget how diffently characters are portrayed when they disappear for years(Count Neferia is a prime example) or the fact that Surfer was FAR less powerful during his encounter with Durok than he is now.
😬 Oeming clearly was not ignorant of how powerful Durok was. He even had Thor flat outstate he could barely stand against him with Mjolnir in the past.
The dialogue of Bendis’ characters alone make me think he only googled the character and wrote the issue based on what he found on Wikipedia.
It’s not a fair comparison really.
Originally posted by darthgoober
The Collector never said that the bolt was only set to take out the East Coast Avengers, he said that it only took them out because Grandmaster didn't know that the Avengers had split into two teams. I guess I can see how some might interpret the whole even differently, but personally I took it to mean that Grandmaster aimed a bolt at the stadium targeting everyone and Surfer blocked the West Coast Team but was unable to block it completely(which is why it still got the East Coast Team).
If that’s true, it still doesn’t change the underlining point. The bolt would have only taken the East Coast Avengers.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/WCA.jpg
That wouldn’t even really make sense. Thor and Captain America were running around literally right beside the West Coast Avengers. The bolt taking out only specifically the East Coast Avengers, along with the Collector’s statement leads me to believe that this feat at beast is inapplicable.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You misunderstand what I was saying. My point was that it was(and often still is) a period of inconsistant writing, even inside a single issue.
Okay. I have to ask, which issue in particular are you referring to about this inconsistencies? I’m a bit confused on that matter.
Originally posted by darthgoober
We weren't talking about who outpreforms who when they're fighting side by side, we were talking about their matchups with specific characters. How the characters preform is almost directly determined by the characters popularity. That's why we see Cap taking down more bad guys than we do Photon when the fighting starts.
Unfortunately that’s when Thor outperforms his peers. Against enemies. He holds back a great deal most of the time and when he needs to step it up, he does. His held his own or gone toe to toe with villains moments after they’ve beaten down Simon, Hercules, Beta Ray Bill etc. But since you like to see direct ownage, here you go:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/OneshotWonderman.jpg
He took him out pretty easily when he got serious. Easier than even Norrin. Thor only landed one punch before that I’m pretty sure so their aren’t any actual excuses for Wonderman there.
😬 That’s your argument? Really? Popularity and Captain America?
Thor has outperformed his peers in direct comparison.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And I'm well aware of Simon's power fluxuations during the period, but the thing is that they were tied to his emotional state and when he was angry or upset he was actually more powerful than he was before the fluxuations ever started. And in the issue in question, Simon was trying to kill Norrin...
I’ll take you word for it as I’m no scholar on Simon. One of the more prominent series that I haven’t read is Wonderman’s.
Originally posted by darthgoober
What makes you think it wouldn't turn out well?
Because it’s the Hulk and Norrin doesn’t perform at his best fighting like a brute. Norrin’s durability and strength will allow him to go toe to toe or hold his own for some time but that's the gist of it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Why wouldn't he be able to grab Surfer's leg, Surfer was leaving at that point. You were right about the hailing distance thing, I was confusing his jumps at Surfer(I thought he said it after he grabbed Surfer's foot and got knocked off). Still, Hulk admitting Surfer's power was stronger than he still says quite a bit(since that's not usually an admission Hulk's willing to make).
I just thought it was something worth noting as even after Norrin used his power to push the Hulk away, he was able to reach out. Meh. He was still calm. I think he once admitted Abomination was stronger than him in the beginning half of the fight.
