Originally posted by kgkg
Lol there is possiblly 3 bad showing for Surfer which will be hard to explain and it's usually from the earth-bound Surfer era.
Have you seen the red car incident?
The branch making SS fall to the ground?
The laser KO? I mean a laser is more powerful than a black hole?
Even the most recent 30 something missile/"nukes" is inconsistent for someone who can casually sit in the sun's core
Originally posted by biensalsaNot sure which incident you referring here...But your probably not mentioning the the context.
Have you seen the red car incident?The branch making SS fall to the ground?
The laser KO? I mean a laser is more powerful than a black hole?
Even the most recent 30 something missile/"nukes" is inconsistent for someone who can casually sit in the sun's core
In Surfer v1 arch we had more inconsistency but even those were explained most of the time.
Which incident are you referring in specific issue number?
The nukes... are you talking about the time he had to shield an entire island? that's a bad showing? 😂
Originally posted by biensalsa
Have you seen the red car incident?
u clearly didnt even read that incident. Surfer didnt get kncoked out by a car, The car seemed to hit them but it is later revealed that it was Dr strange who cast a spell that bfred them to another dimension just as the car was about to hit.
Originally posted by biensalsaThe branch making SS fall to the ground?
SS being knocked off his feet by a large branch when he is not ready for it doesnt count as a bad showing for his durability since he wasnt hurt in the slightest. SS isnt the biggest of guys neither has it been said that he is immovable (especially when not braced). When actually braced for attack we have seen him do things such as completely no sell a punch from an angry she hulk as well as stop rhino dead in his tracks. Such incidents are far more consistent with how the character is portrayed regularly. Ur attempt to continuously bring up low feats of his (in half of which u even leave out context) is a shining display of unfettered bias and pure foolishness.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Which Helps into the argument that a HUGE dose of HV COULD disrupt SS power
How? What about ionization makes you think it could depower him? Why wouldnt he be able to draw more ambient energy and weild it? How would it drain his reserves? How would it keep him from using his powerset or the power cosmic (which is within him)? Why wouldnt he be able to evade the ionizing area?
Now correct me if I'm wrong Isn't the board made of the same stuff as the SS?
You're wrong, the board has been destroyed many times by the exact same attacks that failed to scratch the Surfer, like cable, ravenous and the firelord did.
Look is not that I do not believe SS is not powerful, but certatly his power level is below that of Mjolnir. Certain Writters think Cosmic Power means infinite and that is why they have the Surfer defeating elders of the universe that Galactus is affraid off.
Mjolnir (in thor's hands) and the SS are roughly the same in power levels. SS has a small edge in versatility and mjolnir has an edge in energy absorption and redirection.
You guys on the other hand think SS can defeat henshaw with 10 rings?
Thor?
Thor, yes. Henshaw? Nobody said the SS would win, people were just making fun of the spite thread. Do you seriously not get sarcasm?
You guys are aware that SS has been KO with bricks, rocks, a laser, A RED CAR! and also that He has run out of energy I think at least 3 times
Really? I just read nick fury and CA beating vector and x-ray. So what? Low showings and inconsistency plague all characters and the SS wasnt KOed in most of those, just knocked down on his ass.
Nobody thinks that. The fact that the consensus is that SS is above SM doesn't entail that at all.
Yes this migth be low showings for the Surfer, but certantly He is not at skyfather level like many readers might think.
SS is probably the character with the most inconsitency in comic book historyHe can survive the crushing force of a black hole but he gets KO by a bunch of bricks.
Well then He might be powerful at skyfather level, but if you hit him in the head with a brick then you can defeat the Surfer.
That is what canon comics say the evidence is there.
Oh yes you will probably claim bad writting or PIS for the low showings, well anyone can claim Bad writting or PIS with the upper feats too.
So please stop thinking that SS > Galactus or that SS cosmic power > Mjolnir, because is not
Now you're just repeating the same nonsense and you evidence for it is what? that no one thinks SM can depower surfer with heat vision? That thinking SM cant depower him makes the SS a skyfather level in our eyes? SM is just a herald level and his energy output with HV is far below what the SS has endured throughout his life and what he can dish out.
You argument ammounts to: HV is hotter than stars so it can depower the SS by ionizing atoms arround him. Through what mechanism? How do ions spell out depowering for the SS? What does it matter that he is not immune to electricity? I mean what the **** is this? SS could just neutralize the electric charges of the ions, not that they'd depower him in the first place.
Originally posted by 753
How? What about ionization makes you think it could depower him? Why wouldnt he be able to draw more ambient energy and weild it? How would it drain his reserves? How would it keep him from using his powerset or the power cosmic (which is within him)? Why wouldnt he be able to evade the ionizing area?You're wrong, the board has been destroyed many times by the exact same attacks that failed to scratch the Surfer, like cable, ravenous and the firelord did.
Mjolnir (in thor's hands) and the SS are roughly the same in power levels. SS has a small edge in versatility and mjolnir has an edge in energy absorption and redirection.
Thor, yes. Henshaw? Nobody said the SS would win, people were just making fun of the spite thread. Do you seriously not get sarcasm?
Really? I just read nick fury and CA beating vector and x-ray. So what? Low showings and inconsistency plague all characters and the SS wasnt KOed in most of those, just knocked down on his ass.
Nobody thinks that. The fact that the consensus is that SS is above SM doesn't entail that at all.
Now you're just repeating the same nonsense and you evidence for it is what? that no one thinks SM can depower surfer with heat vision? That thinking SM cant depower him makes the SS a skyfather level in our eyes? SM is just a herald level and his energy output with HV is far below what the SS has endured throughout his life and what he can dish out.
You argument ammounts to: HV is hotter than stars so it can depower the SS by ionizing atoms arround him. Through what mechanism? How do ions spell out depowering for the SS? What does it matter that he is not immune to electricity? I mean what the **** is this? SS could just neutralize the electric charges of the ions, not that they'd depower him in the first place.
Not enough time to respond to every point, BUT are you aware that SS has run out of power or being close to run out of power at least in 3 times?
Originally posted by biensalsa
Not enough time to respond to every point, BUT are you aware that SS has run out of power or being close to run out of power at least in 3 times?
How much times did it tooks to came back full power?
I remember an incident when Storm and Wonderman, both under the control of the Goddess, were beating the shit out of a non-powered Surfer. Still, Wonderman didn't even achieve the kill. Wonderman failed at killing a powered Surfer.
The, in moments, the energy came back, and Surfer beat the bejeezus of him.
Originally posted by biensalsaHigh end feats that are not PIS, stop pretending you don't get this. You may claim that PIS is subjective and it is to a certain degree, but the batkick contrariates all logic and established history so it's not up for debate. I do think SS>Thor and while an equally valid case could be made for the contrary, the same doesn't apply to spider-man beating firelord for instance.
But by those rules SS is more powerful than ThorAnd Batman can take down a demi-god :?
Galactus's description of the SS's power is enough to show those very low end durabilty feats are crap. The same goes for SM and the gas station, it's an inconsistant showing that we know makes no sense given the character's powerset and history of feats, both high and average.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The ones that really stand out for me at the moment are: Odin's blast, and Stormbreaker.
But I didn't think we were talking about those types of showings here. I mean I know we're talking about those also when we're talking about comparing their preformances against guys like Wonder Man and Thanos, but I thought you meant that there were instances where Thor's durability outpreformed Surfer's when they were side by side.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
My main point was that it was only one punch. The way you called it a beating would make one think he withstood an onslaught.How is the board connected to Norrin? It was made pretty clear that Durok was above Norrin in power, or at least in physical strength. I always assumed the board was a construct formed from the Power Cosmic but not something that constantly drains Norrin’s power. I guess the board being a streamlined object that could go faster than light would make it very difficult to contain. Lee also had Durok break the board and seemed to want to indicate it as an impressive feat. Was that the first time the board was broken?
Oh, and looking back, the board not only attacked Durok from behind, but it was lodged against his neck.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/SurferDurok4.jpg
That’s not exactly an easy position for Durok and he apparently broke free of the boards attack.
I see it as being connected similar to the way Thor's hammer is viewed. Showings of the boards power are the same as showings of various aspects of Surfer's power. For instance, you say that Durok was above Surfer in physical strength and that's obviously true, but the fight also showed that the amount of physical force Surfer is capable of generating by his board exceeds what he's physical force that's at his comand is pretty impressive. Put it this way, do you think was portrayed as being strong enough to pin down Durok like that during that first fight? I mean I know Durok could obviously punch Thor if he were that close but let's say PIS kicks in and Durok didn't punch him, could he have hold Durok down like that? Because it didn't really seem that way to me. And if that's the case it means that while Thor might be stronger than Surfer in physical strength Norrin can still generate more physical force when necessary. But like I've always said, both character's showings(especially from that era) are inconsistant so I don't take the instance of definite proof of Surfer's ability to hit harder with his board than Thor can with his hammer. My point is just been that Thor was NOT consistantly portrayed as being more powerful than Surfer, even during the period of Norrin's depowerment.
As for Surfer's board being broken, I'm unsure as to whether or not it had been at that point(but if it had it hadn't happened much so it was definitely an impressive feat for Durok at the time). But he didn't break free, he fell through the wall/ground because of his struggling.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
In what issue did said instance take place? Not scans. Issue number.I didn’t gloss over anything. Your stance depends entirely on how Surfer’s healing interacts with Gods. He didn’t seem weaker at all or even seems to indicate any loss of energy. If healing them actually did drain him of his energy, it definitely puts Surfer’s interaction with Durok in a much better light.
I am however hesitant about this because if Lee wanted Surfer to be weakened, he would have come out and straight up said it or indicated it in at least some shape, way, or form. Something that he did not do at all in this issue. Its simply how Lee wrote Thor issues after JIM’s series ended and he had gotten comfortable with Thor. If you want, I can point out to some issues where it was intended that Thor was weakened or lost some power. It’s mentioned. A lot.
I was discussing this on another board actually, and Surfer’s depowered phase gets overrated. Apparently “him being weaker gets mentioned like 2 times in all of those appearances - including his FF appearance - and gets attributed to the ozone layer and being weak from the sonic shark device right after he got hit with it.” Surfer had his weakest showings during this period so it would be easy to want to explain them away but that could easily just be Silver Age bullshit. He was knocked out by Ben as a herald for example but also had his best showing against Mephisto during this period did he not? On top of it all, wasn’t it retconned that he didn’t lose any superpowers at all in an issue? I don’t really want to debate this though. Just wanted to point out the above as it was still fresh in my mind. I still think your overdoing it with the “fraction of full power” statement. At least from what I know of Lee’s Surfer work. He didn’t really seem to write him as significantly weakened.
You mean Surfer healing Thor and Balder? Thor vol. 1 #193
Yeah but Lee's the one who established that Surfer heals other people with his own energy and is weakened after healing...
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurfer12-13.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurfer12-14.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurfer12-15.jpg
...so I'm pretty sure he knew about it(those scans are from Surfer vol. 1 #12 if you're wondering). Now you can just write it off as inconsistancy at work, but my whole point has been that the two characters were portrayed inconsistantly during the period so doing so actually supports my overall point
Your right in saying that it could easily be silver age bullshit, but luckily enough Marvel made it clear in Surfer vol 3 #1 that he was depowered. And you're right about both Ben and Mephisto(though I'm of the opinion that the incident with Ben has been rectonned), which just goes to show that NO one issue from the period should be taken as concrete proof of ANYTHING(including the first Thor/Surfer fight). As for his being depowered being rectonned, I once thought so but it turns out that I was under false impressions about Surfer's depowerement(which we can talk about if you want, but I'll skip unless you're interested). And I assure you, I'm not overdoing it by refering to him as being at a fraction of his full power...
Surfer says that his own power is a fraction of what it once had been...
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/depowered/FantasticFour074-06.jpg
While fighting a giant Badoon Monster Surfer says "Once I might have felled you with a shrug! But though I am less than before... still I am the Silver Surfer!"
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1979_002_30.jpg
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think he might be referring to the fact that Odin revealed that the ring started to have negative affects on Loki as he did not have the strength to sustain the ring. Some issues later after the fight with Thor, Loki started feeling his strength being drained as I recall. That doesn’t make the Thor showing any less impressive however.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
😬 Oeming clearly was not ignorant of how powerful Durok was. He even had Thor flat outstate he could barely stand against him with Mjolnir in the past.The dialogue of Bendis’ characters alone make me think he only googled the character and wrote the issue based on what he found on Wikipedia.
It’s not a fair comparison really.
To be honest though, now that I think about it because of Surfer's depowerement during the period I could totally see Oeming taking the stance that Thor was weakened significantly by all the fighting he'd done and such the first time around to keep it from seeming like a depowered Surfer was as/more powerful than Thor.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If that’s true, it still doesn’t change the underlining point. The bolt would have only taken the East Coast Avengers.http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/WCA.jpg
That wouldn’t even really make sense. Thor and Captain America were running around literally right beside the West Coast Avengers. The bolt taking out only specifically the East Coast Avengers, along with the Collector’s statement leads me to believe that this feat at beast is inapplicable.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Okay. I have to ask, which issue in particular are you referring to about this inconsistencies? I’m a bit confused on that matter.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Unfortunately that’s when Thor outperforms his peers. Against enemies. He holds back a great deal most of the time and when he needs to step it up, he does. His held his own or gone toe to toe with villains moments after they’ve beaten down Simon, Hercules, Beta Ray Bill etc. But since you like to see direct ownage, here you go:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/OneshotWonderman.jpgHe took him out pretty easily when he got serious. Easier than even Norrin. Thor only landed one punch before that I’m pretty sure so their aren’t any actual excuses for Wonderman there.
😬 That’s your argument? Really? Popularity and Captain America?
Thor has outperformed his peers in direct comparison.
And Cap is just an example, but I'm sure we can agree that Thor is right up there with Cap as far as overall popularity go(Cap's probably more popular, but I doubt it would be a blowout in his favor).
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I’ll take you word for it as I’m no scholar on Simon. One of the more prominent series that I haven’t read is Wonderman’s.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Because it’s the Hulk and Norrin doesn’t perform at his best fighting like a brute. Norrin’s durability and strength will allow him to go toe to toe or hold his own for some time but that's the gist of it.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I just thought it was something worth noting as even after Norrin used his power to push the Hulk away, he was able to reach out. Meh. He was still calm. I think he once admitted Abomination was stronger than him in the beginning half of the fight.
I don't hink he reached back out after being pushed away, I'm pretty sure he fell and then jumped at Surfer again(can't say for sure at this point because I'm having some issues with my external harddrive and can't double check). And I doubt he was that calm, I mean he started jumping at Surfer in the last pages of the issue and it's not like Hulk normally spends the first 3 quarters of an issue just kickin back chillin.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He didn’t damage his silver coating –the Hulk states that his apparently unhurt- but Norrin didn’t exactly take the punch with a smile on his face.Lee had a high opinion of the board. I guess it would be a dangerous weapon. An incredibly durable board capable of going at the speed of light –doesn’t mean it always does- to the chin would hurt. A hit from Norrin’s speeding board from what I've seen has been shown to be incredibly powerful during this era from what I've seen.
I digress though, I don’t really care about the board and at this point it feels like I’m just arguing for the sake of arguing. I’ll try and actively tone down my replies so as to save us both time.
Dude I wouldn't smile if an 8 year punched me while trying to pick a fight...
That's cool, we do seem to be focusing on some minor points of the overall topic.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I never said it was. I never recall such a scene happening even once. As a matter of fact, when Banner was controlling the Hulk, he stated that despite his durability –and this was during the era where he was portrayed as having a nigh invulnerable body- every time Mjolnir struck him, it hurt.
Well it's entirely possible that I'm splicing memories of scans together and you're right, I just thought I'd seen it at least once. But since you're not saying it's a low showing or anything I guess it doesn't really matter so aI'll just take your word for it.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes it does. I don’t know about you, but in my opinion, if Norrin decides to engage the Hulk as a brute, I like the Hulk’s odds. Don’t worry. I give Norrin a healthy majority over the Hulk based on his abilities.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Fair enough. It wasn’t actually a black hole was it? I’m pretty sure it was some type of a wormhole anomaly. It even called to Norrin or something similar.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That’s true to an extent, but from what I saw, although he didn’t like it, Norrin intended to put the Hulk down. They had broken him. And under Pak, the Hulk was capable of regulating his power greatly. Even regulated his durability as I recall.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You’re welcome to if you want and I can see your point (Gas Station, bullet, hammer wielding Mexicans etc.). To be fair though, withstanding attacks from Odin isn’t even Thor’s greatest showing of durability. Odin apparently can’t one shot take out Thor based on their encounters. It’s not a knock against Odin though so I’m fine with it.Fair enough.
Sorry for the late reply. The last few days have been surprisingly busy.
