Kas'im vs Anakin and Windu

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm fairly certain that the fight was interrupted to show Anakin charging from the Council Chambers. Perhaps then?

Originally posted by Gideon
In fact, actually. The only thing you have is that George Lucas said Palpatine was overpowered, which does not contradict the idea that Palpatine restrained himself throughout the duel.

If Palpatine were holding back, then the very definition of "overpower" would be defeated, as Mace would not have [literally] had "superior force."

Originally posted by Galan007
He was a blur against Mace as well. In fact, they were both blurs.

Why? Because he didn't use offensive force powers much? You do realize that when you're battling at blur-esque speeds, there's not exactly much time to use things like force lightning, choke, push, crush, etc., right? If Palpatine would have slowed down to try and use any of the aforementioned, he almost certainly would have been flayed by Mace. Essentially, Palps had to maintain that level of speed -- that's why Mace was able to overpower and defeat him when he was forced to divert some of his speed into force grip to avoid falling from the ledge.

However, what you may note from the novelization is that when Mace momentarily withdrew from the battle in order to jump across the room and shatter the office window, Palpatine did use the force to try and push him out of the window. ie. when Palpatine finally had the opportunity to use the force offensively, he had no problem doing so.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

Ok Gideon, about that reason why you put me on ignore, it's unfair to put someone of ignore because you disagree with them on one argument. Oh, and my scenario is far more likely than your mock scenarios, such as Obi Wan cloaking himself even though Obi Wan CAN'T cloak himself. I understand that you were trying to mock me, but for a mock to be valid it typically should be as close to the thing that you're trying to mock as possible, which yours is not.

You think that my arguments were bad. However, let me give you a request. Please counter these arguments AND explain how they are BAD arguments. Then, give me one chance to refute. If I can't, then I'll concede this argument.

1. Explain how security guards will detect Jedi that have shown to be able to move faster than the eye can detect.
2. Explain why security cameras would have infared. Sidious would not anticipate a person that can cloak him or her self.
3. Explain how the people (or even droids) monitoring the security cameras could detect Jedi moving faster than the eye could detect.

On the main topic of this thread, Kas'im loses badly to Anakin and Mace Windu. If it were one on win Kas'im would lose in most cases to Mace and Anakin.

(sorry for triple post)

For the Sidious faking argument, George Lucas states that Mace overpowered Sidious, and there isn't much reason to think otherwise. There is, however, evidence that Sidious faked the Force battle. Still, don't see why Sidious would fake it. Although faking it might bring Anakin on his side, it is a HUGE risk. What if Anakin doesn't intervene? What if Mace is too fast for Anakin? Sidious can certainly execute his plans without Anakin's help; actually, since Sidious apparently never planned to be replaced by his apprentice, having someone that would eventually surpass Sidious would work against Sidious's plans.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Ok Gideon, about that reason why you put me on ignore, it's unfair to put someone of ignore because you disagree with them on one argument.

HWKA,,, Stop it!! Are you really THAT concerned that Gideon put you on ignore? Gideon will continue to hide when he cannot contend with others. This is how it's been for quite awhile now. Let him keep his tail tucked between his legs and get on with your life.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
HWKA,,, Stop it!! Are you really THAT concerned that Gideon put you on ignore? Gideon will continue to hide when he cannot contend with others. This is how it's been for quite awhile now. Let him keep his tail tucked between his legs and get on with your life.

Good point, but I'm still confused as to why Gideon disagrees with my argument so strongly.

Oh, and Gideon, a 4th argument:

4. Couldn't the Jedi bomb Sidious's palace from space via Stealth X's? Stealth X's when using its stealth mode are invisible to both the eye and sensors, so the fleet(s) orbiting Coruscant won't be able to detect the Stealth X's. The Jedi can hide themselves in the Force, therefore also shielding themselves from Sidious's Force senses.

Edit: I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you all are talking about me. This pleases me. 🙂

Galan007
Perhaps. But the statement you posted makes it sound as though Palpatine force pushes Mace immediately after entering the office, which he certainly did not.

It really doesn't matter, you see. Because I'm not arguing that Palpatine did use telekinesis against Windu, simply that he could have done so. And since George line edited Stover's novelization, I guess he feels the same way. The idea that Windu was "all over him" and Palpatine couldn't concentrate for the nanosecond it would take to attempt to hurl Windu aside is baseless and stupid.

Now I'm not saying that the attempt would have worked, because I imagine Windu, being second only to Yoda on the Council, could conjure some sort of defense.

Galan007
The definition of overpower is: "To overcome or vanquish by superior force."

If Palpatine were holding back, then the very definition of "overpower" would be defeated, as Mace would not have [literally] had "superior force."

Not at all, because Windu would have been applying superior force. In fact, if you want to take the definition to the extreme that you do, you would in fact be suggesting that Windu possesses "superior power" than Palpatine himself.

Which is also baseless. Really, there's only one logical conclusion: Palpatine restrained himself.

Ares
Intresting choice of words. The fact that is doesn't simply say he uses the force but rather that he is able suggests that he isn't always able to use use the force against Mace. It also says Mace "recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down" suggesting that Palpatine was attmepting to kill him.

But the script doesn't say that Palpatine was going to cut him down, just that Windu recovered before he could.

Yoda might be flawed in many ways, but he has consistently demonstrated notable skill as a tactician.

....... Wat?

Yoda is a terrible tactician. In DR his master plan was to walk alone into Dooku's base and hope he wasn't met with 50 tonnes of dynomite and a note saying 'Hahaha, you ****wit'. In the OT his great plan is to send craptastic Luke after two opponents he is comparable in skill to a cockroach besides and then if he fails, leave it all up to an untrained Leia who has no-one alive to teach her shit. Yoda may be wise, but he thick as an oak. In fact, one of the driving points of the PT is Yoda's complete inability to deal with the situation at hand.

Originally posted by Gideon
The idea that Windu was "all over him" and Palpatine couldn't concentrate for the nanosecond it would take to attempt to hurl Windu aside is baseless and stupid.

Now I'm not saying that the attempt would have worked, because I imagine Windu, being second only to Yoda on the Council, could conjure some sort of defense.

Anyhow, I also agree that an attempt to use a force attack against Mace wouldn't have worked. The novel made it clear that when Palpatine had to divert his force speed elsewhere, Mace was able to capitalize.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not at all, because Windu would have been applying superior force. In fact, if you want to take the definition to the extreme that you do, you would in fact be suggesting that Windu possesses "superior power" than Palpatine himself.

Which is also baseless. Really, there's only one logical conclusion: Palpatine restrained himself.

1. Explain how security guards will detect Jedi that have shown to be able to move faster than the eye can detect.
2. Explain why security cameras would have infared. Sidious would not anticipate a person that can cloak him or her self.
3. Explain how the people (or even droids) monitoring the security cameras could detect Jedi moving faster than the eye could detect.
4. Couldn't the Jedi bomb Sidious's palace from space via Stealth X's? Stealth X's when using its stealth mode are invisible to both the eye and sensors, so the fleet(s) orbiting Coruscant won't be able to detect the Stealth X's. The Jedi can hide themselves in the Force, therefore also shielding themselves from Sidious's Force senses.

Galan007
Palpatine can react by the nanosecond, eh? Well that's... Impressive.

Anyhow, I also agree that an attempt to use a force attack against Mace wouldn't have worked. The novel made it clear that when Palpatine had to divert his force speed elsewhere, Mace was able to capitalize.

lulwut

So every time Palpatine did/would/could slow down to attack Windu through the Force, Windu would be able to capitalize? That's amusing, since the screenplay begs to differ. According to the script, when Palpatine used the Force, Windu wasn't able to stop him or resist or fight back or "capitalize" on anything; he was only able to get out of the way before a follow up attack could be delivered.

Let's dispense with that notion right off the bat.

Galan007
Skewing black and white definitions to fit your own interpretation is funny.

^ Saying this rather than responding to the point itself suggests a lack of confidence in your own argument, which is even more funny.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. Explain how security guards will detect Jedi that have shown to be able to move faster than the eye can detect.
2. Explain why security cameras would have infared. Sidious would not anticipate a person that can cloak him or her self.
3. Explain how the people (or even droids) monitoring the security cameras could detect Jedi moving faster than the eye could detect.
4. Couldn't the Jedi bomb Sidious's palace from space via Stealth X's? Stealth X's when using its stealth mode are invisible to both the eye and sensors, so the fleet(s) orbiting Coruscant won't be able to detect the Stealth X's. The Jedi can hide themselves in the Force, therefore also shielding themselves from Sidious's Force senses.

N
Yoda is a [b]terrible tactician.[/b]

When it comes to military and combat matters, he's really not. In addition to curbstomping the Separatists on Geonosis and Kashyyyk, the New Essential Chronology outright says that Yoda's expertise in warfare was such that Palpatine tried to keep him far from the frontlines (though I never understood if that was to utilize his abilities or to keep them from swinging the tide too heavily in favor of the Republic).

N
In DR his master plan was to walk alone into Dooku's base and hope he wasn't met with 50 tonnes of dynomite and a note saying 'Hahaha, you ****wit'. In the OT his great plan is to send craptastic Luke after two opponents he is comparable in skill to a cockroach besides and then if he fails, leave it all up to an untrained Leia who has no-one alive to teach her.

Well, to be fair, both of those did work in the end.

N
Yoda may be wise, but he thick as an oak. In fact, one of the driving points of the PT is Yoda's complete inability to deal with the situation at hand.

Yoda's inability to stop Palpatine in the PT was the result of his strategic and political inferiority, not any deficit in military or combat tactics. In fact, Yoda's demonstrated greater skill as a soldier or general than he ever has as a Grand Master.

Agree to disagree?

I posted 3 times in a row, but Gideon still doesn't want to respond.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. Explain how security guards will detect Jedi that have shown to be able to move faster than the eye can detect.
2. Explain why security cameras would have infared. Sidious would not anticipate a person that can cloak him or her self.
3. Explain how the people (or even droids) monitoring the security cameras could detect Jedi moving faster than the eye could detect.
4. Couldn't the Jedi bomb Sidious's palace from space via Stealth X's? Stealth X's when using its stealth mode are invisible to both the eye and sensors, so the fleet(s) orbiting Coruscant won't be able to detect the Stealth X's. The Jedi can hide themselves in the Force, therefore also shielding themselves from Sidious's Force senses.

Vorpal Ruin
Agree to disagree?

While that might be the mature and proper thing to do,

I MUST SMITE MY FOEZ!

HWKN
but Gideon still doesn't want to respond.

I said I'd take you off ignore. I never said I'd respond. I'm infuriatingly clever that way.

Originally posted by Gideon
lulwut

So every time Palpatine did/would/could slow down to attack Windu through the Force, Windu would be able to capitalize? That's amusing, since the screenplay begs to differ. According to the script, when Palpatine used the Force, Windu wasn't able to stop him or resist or fight back or "capitalize" on anything; he was only able to get out of the way before a follow up attack could be delivered.

Let's dispense with that notion right off the bat.

b.) I never said that Mace could capitalize on any force attack. All I'm saying is based on the speeds in which they were battling, it's unlikely that Palpatine would have had enough time to conjure a force attack without being flayed by Mace in the process... Unless he can react by the nanosecond as you said. If so, I'm really curious to know where that factoid came from.

Originally posted by Gideon
^ Saying this rather than responding to the point itself suggests a lack of confidence in your own argument, which is even more funny.