Cosmic Avengers vs. JLA

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I want to know your real reasons for asserting that Hal is "more effective" than Surfer and that he is just as "infinitely versatile" as Surfer.

My reasons are that Hal is a more competent fighter than Surfer has been historically, just based on the very different natures of the character, and that pulling out the win has always been his thing, and that looking back at Green Lantern's history his ring has essentially done everything that heralds have proven capable of doing, from matter manipulation to teleportation to energy blasts to whatever.

^ You're basing Hal's superior competency in fighting on his differing nature? Have you considered his vulnerabilities? Where, if he puts too much willpower into a single construct and it's shattered, he'll receive crippling feedback? Or if he puts too much willpower into a single action, someone like Batman can punch him in the face? Or that people with superspeed can simply steal his ring and instantly depower him? Or that light manipulators can completely subvert his constructs back against him?

And on equal versatility: Are you aware that Green Lanterns can't teleport anymore (think to Blackest Night when the Indigo Tribe was the only means of instant teleportation)? Or that their matter manipulation capabilities are thrown into complete doubt now (since Stewart couldn't even transmute simple oxygen)?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You're basing Hal's superior competency in fighting on his differing nature? Have you considered his vulnerabilities? Where, if he puts too much willpower into a single construct and it's shattered, he'll receive crippling feedback? Or if he puts too much willpower into a single action, someone like Batman can punch him in the face? Or that people with superspeed can simply steal his ring and instantly depower him? Or that light manipulators can completely subvert his constructs back against him?

And on equal versatility: Are you aware that Green Lanterns can't teleport anymore (think to Blackest Night when the Indigo Tribe was the only means of instant teleportation)? Or that their matter manipulation capabilities are thrown into complete doubt now (since Stewart couldn't even transmute simple oxygen)?

Good points.

GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.

Avengers.Surfer and quasar(if they can get a strategy)are too much.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You're basing Hal's superior competency in fighting on his differing nature?

His differing mindset, yeah.

Have you considered his vulnerabilities? Where, if he puts too much willpower into a single construct and it's shattered, he'll receive crippling feedback?

"Crippling" seems strong, but yes, absolutely, that has to be taken into account. That said, he's faced many top tier foes without that being a major issue, and when he's motivated and ready for a 1v1 battle I doubt it'll make much difference.

Or if he puts too much willpower into a single action, someone like Batman can punch him in the face?

Sure, if Batman can get past him. But, for my money, in any 1v1 contest Surfer is going to have his hands too full with Hal - especially a fully concentrating Hal - to somehow sneak around and tag him.

Or that people with superspeed can simply steal his ring and instantly depower him?

Hal's record against Super Speedsters is pretty damn good, actually, and against super speedsters with far faster reaction speed than the Silver Surfer.

Or that light manipulators can completely subvert his constructs back against him?

Again, Hal has a pretty good record against both energy absorbers and energy manipulators. While Dr. Light was certainly able to manipulate Kyle's constructs quite nicely, he wasn't able to do the same against Hal. In fact, I can think of at least one instance of Hal turning Dr. Light's constructs against him.

And on equal versatility: Are you aware that Green Lanterns can't teleport anymore (think to Blackest Night when the Indigo Tribe was the only means of instant teleportation)?

No, I'm not 'aware' because the opinion of one writer, no matter how pervasive his work with the characters is, doesn't represent the entirity of that character's history. Was the Silver Surfer nothing more than a guy with super strength and energy blasts during the Starlin run? Did he lose all of his other powers during that period? Or was it just the take of one writer?

Hal, and Green Lanterns in general, have a fairly long and consistent history of teleporting. And yes, Hal has done it fairly recently, in Brave and the Bold.

Or that their matter manipulation capabilities are thrown into complete doubt now (since Stewart couldn't even transmute simple oxygen)?

I have to say, it seems as though you WANT it to be thrown into doubt. Not only does Hal have a long history of transmuting matter, not only do GL's have a long history of transmuting matter, but even by the most restrictive caveats Hal has shown matter transmutation abilities. Again, in Brave and the Bold.

Before this goes any further, I should mention that Pre-Crisis history is in continuity as far as I (and GL writers) are concerned. I recognize that there is a trend to limit the versatility and 'plot deviceness' of characters in the modern age - by most writers, anyway - but that doesn't wipe away any of that old continuity, anymore than the Silver Age Surfer/Thor stories aren't valid because of their silliness.

I believe we've gone over this ad nauseum in the past, and I know you don't agree, so it might be better that we leave it here. I'd be more than willing to continue if you want, though.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.

lol

JLA for a very, very slight majority.

Good matchup and could go either way.

Originally posted by tkitna
JLA for a very, very slight majority.

Good matchup and could go either way.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.

True.

John Stewarts done it in the Burning Martian story, as has Hal's good half in Last Will and Testament, to name a few.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Cosmic Avengers

Silver Surfer
Nova
Gladiator
Quasar
Beta Ray Bill
Ronan

vs.

JLA

Superman
Wonder Woman
Captani Marvel
Orion
Green Lantern- Hal Jordan
Captain Atom

Superman beats everyone on the Marvel team except Surfer
Wonder Woman Can Likely only beat Nova and Ronan. But she's so close that she could hold Gladiator, or BRB off for a very long time.
Captain Marvel is like WW but Better. So He could maybe stalemate the People she could only hold off.
Orion can beat everyone on the Marvel Team but Surfer. But he could stalemate him if he fought like he did in his series.
Hal Jordan can beat everyone but Surfer and He could maybe match Quasar if he doesn't get Drained in the first few seconds.
Captain Atom is the wild Card. He's one of the best energy manipulators in comics and he's pretty tuff and strong.

I have to say split. Surfer is not getting beaten for a majority with any certainty by anyone on the DC team. But Ronan is getting beaten by every one on the DC team very fastly. Leaving Two on one for DC easily.

Nova is shit. He's been a hero for like 2 days. How's he gonna really beat anyone on the DC team with all the experience they have?

Give Marvel Thor instead of Ronan and They win.

Originally posted by Desaad
I did indeed read the book. Creating the Black Hole as an after effect of the battle - which is how you presented it - is not what happened.

So when did it happen? Never.

What you most likely did is get that instance confused with "Galactus: The Devourer" where he and Red Shift are fighting in a black hole.

Lol, he just did even easier by flying away. The point is a black hole was created with him not even trying. Thought it was something but turns out you're just being picky.

It's not about the ease, it's about the propensity to use in a combat situation.

Originally posted by Desaad
From what I've seen, in battle, it's mostly saying "Rich, over on your left! Rich, over on your right! That thing is really powerful!"

It's not really giving any weaknesses or weak spots, or even telling Rich the way he needs to attack. He figured out how to defeat Xenith, for instance, not Worldmind. And in some ways, it feels almost a slower interface than would a direct mind-to-weapon connection, as Rich has to say "Left gauntlet, 30% gravitmetric pulse" or what have you, rather than simply thinking it.

Actually, I think you missed some of the better feats that the Worldmind has shown. One example is in Annihilation: Conquest, it allowed a basic Nova Centurion to outmaneuver and ultimately trap the Nova Prime via the use of clever timing, tactical and situational analysis as well as knowing at almost pinpoint precision/detail the schematics of an entire alien environment (allowing her to use the environment against him). It's been able to work independently to support its host in times of crisis (such as when Rider got fried and needed to be hidden to be given time to heal, he reached out and deputized someone).

The main difference between the Worldmind and MB is that the WM is a separate sentient entity complete with its own unique personality, knowledge (w/c he shares with his host), memories, experiences and insight on every situation. A second set of eyes and ears (and a myriad of sensors/scanners as well) as well as something that helps manage the whole Nova Force and his mental/bodily functions.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Are you talking about direct guidance? She specifically instructed and allowed, for instance, Swamp Thing to change the way his energy matrix oscillated so that he and Metron could penetrate/travel through the source and space/time. Or maybe you mean the way that Mother Box enhanced Iron Man's senses, allowing him to 'know' and 'feel' that the Flash was coming, and exactly how/when to attack? Or do you mean simply aiding the hero based on the situation, as one did to Superman when he faced Doomsday, arming him with a bunch of weapons that he would need for the specific situation? Or, like, when it tells Orion the nature of the type of energy he faces so he can defeat it? Or give the backstory on Billion Dollar Bates based on a scan of a giant, bloated clone (ie, the history of the foe?) Or warning Orion that the self destruction of the building he's in has just been activated? Or when a time -distortion field is being directed at him?

It's even been used as a sort of Worldmind, in Starman. I think the real difference is that normally it's not verbal, it's not overt, so it doesn't seem like it is saying or doing as much, but it's always there advising and helping...supporting. That's what a mother does. 🙂 (in the example I used from starman, Orion encodes a mother box with the personality anagrams of Ted Knight, the original Starman, to help Jack Knight on his space journey...and he gives advice and warns him of this and that).

The Surfer has been able to duplicate these feats as well on his own. But there is a stark difference between being fed all the information you need versus having someone watch your back and objectively advise you on every situation as well as feed you info.

Originally posted by Desaad
What I'm saying is that with a savvy enough mind at the helm of one of these devices, the difference is almost nonexistent. Maybe Rich, who is a bit more inexperienced, needs someone to tell him how to do things, but these guys generally do not (and, really, Rich doesn't either -- he often times ignores the greater strategies or specific advice put forth by Worldmind and does his own thing, which tends to be MORE successful). These devices give real time information about their foes' natures and weaknesses and incoming attacks, and I think that's good enough.

Rider is not the same inexperienced rookie that he used to be. I think I'll go as far as to say that he's one of the most tactically savvy superheroes out there, using his mind (and subtle uses of the Nova Force) to defeat a lot of his more powerful foes rather than just simply brute force.

You cannot discount the benefit of a second insight and second pair of eyes. Even when you're focused on something, another person tells you that you're missing or not noticing something. There is just so much more you are afforded with that than simply being provided all the information immediately.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think the real difference is pretty small.

I see your points but I really don't agree.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think both are pretty uncommon and unlikely, but I'd agree with you. I was simply answering your question as to whether Orion has never done so. He has, like once in his entire career.

I'll agree with you here. Like I said, it was simply to respond to what someone else brought up.

Originally posted by Desaad
It's not about the ease, it's about the propensity to use in a combat situation.

The Surfer HAS commented that he could open Singularities inside ppl's eyes if he wanted to (Silver Surfer: In Thy Name). Not that he's ever done it before.

@ D_Dude. The Mother Box is also a separate entity as well. Each New God has to earn it's trust and has a mind of it's own.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
@ D_Dude. The Mother Box is also a separate entity as well. Each New God has to earn it's trust and has a mind of it's own.

But has it demonstrated the type of symbiosis that the WM constantly has?

Yes?

I haven't been following it's symbiosis, so I'm not sure.

I want to address the full points later, but for the moment...yeah, Mother Box is it's own thing, to the point that it abandoned Orion when he started becoming evil, it scolds him as a mother does for not taking advice, it mourns (and kills itself) when it's user dies...That's why it's called a Mother Box. It's not just a name, it's actually the way it functions (nurturing it's user spiritually and emotionally while protecting and facilitating it physically) .