Originally posted by Desaad
It's not about the ease, it's about the propensity to use in a combat situation.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yes, it has. Hell, Barda used the MB to absorb Scott's soul in battle. It can do a lot more than communicate and give tips in battle.
W/c isn't the point. No1 disputes that the Motherbox has many other versatile feats over that of the WM. What we're saying is that, the WM is a far better tactical resource than the MB due to the nature of how the WM works.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If they've both done the same thing, how is the WM better
Capabilities-wise they seem similar. But the realtime tactical support provided by the WM has been shown to be far more effective. Sure, the MB has more frills, more versatile abilities and can do a lot of what the WM can do. But not at the level that the WM does it. A Military Supercomputer might not have the same features as an iphone, but it's better at what it does.
Sigh. Just show an instance where the MB has been able to affect the outcome of a battle thru tactical savvy that a person 1/1000th the power of another wins the fight primarily because of how the MB guided it.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Orion's MB scanning for weaknesses against Darkseid? Orion's Father Box creating a weapon designed to kill Darkseid? And I think Barda's fused with Scott's soul battling an amped Darkseid in another Nail. Not necessarily in continuity, but they say there is only one set of New Gods.
Weakness scanning is very basic, WM has that, SS has that, GL rings has that. I meant something more of a tactical resource feat.
Again, the weapon creation and the soul fusion are some of the abilities that they have that ISN'T really a tactical resource in nature. No one is disputing the WM's versatility (tho SS versatility more than compensates for this). Just the tactical resource effectiveness.
Originally posted by Prep-ManGL's can't teleport. Otherwise, that notion wouldn't have been outright stated by GLs and the Indigo Tribe during Blackest Night. If GLs could teleport they wouldn't be caught in nearly half of the messes they find themselves in.
GL's CAN teleport. Geoff Johns just seems to forget that.
Originally posted by DesaadHal's about precision and doing precisely what's needed to get the job done. That doesn't make you more combat effective in a fight unless you're actually capable of getting the job done. And Surfer's superior versatility and sheer power differential make him far more capable of getting jobs done.
His differing mindset, yeah.
Originally posted by Desaad"Crippling" was an understatement. Most GLs get completely knocked unconscious due to feedback. And against a foe like Surfer, feedback from his constructs shattering will make a difference.
"Crippling" seems strong, but yes, absolutely, that has to be taken into account. That said, he's faced many top tier foes without that being a major issue, and when he's motivated and ready for a 1v1 battle I doubt it'll make much difference.Sure, if Batman can get past him. But, for my money, in any 1v1 contest Surfer is going to have his hands too full with Hal - especially a fully concentrating Hal - to somehow sneak around and tag him.
You mean like how Surfer habitually uses his board to hit his foes from behind?
Originally posted by DesaadAgainst Barry? When they're not really fighting? Who he knows like his own brother? I hope you're not going to cite him chaining up Zoom for all of two seconds before Zoom escapes. Superspeed > GLs.
Hal's record against Super Speedsters is pretty damn good, actually, and against super speedsters with far faster reaction speed than the Silver Surfer.Again, Hal has a pretty good record against both energy absorbers and energy manipulators. While Dr. Light was certainly able to manipulate Kyle's constructs quite nicely, he wasn't able to do the same against Hal. In fact, I can think of at least one instance of Hal turning Dr. Light's constructs against him.
Not on Surfer's level. Tangent Flash did it too recently. Only time I've seen Hal turn Dr. Light's own power on him was pre-Crisis. I can't remember the last time a GL beat an energy manipulator at his own game of energy manipulation.
Originally posted by DesaadObviously the writers define what GLs can or cannot do. But whether or not you think it's fair, GLs inability to teleport has been made clear for the past decade or more. I'm not going to waste time arguing this point.
No, I'm not 'aware' because the opinion of one writer, no matter how pervasive his work with the characters is, doesn't represent the entirity of that character's history. Was the Silver Surfer nothing more than a guy with super strength and energy blasts during the Starlin run? Did he lose all of his other powers during that period? Or was it just the take of one writer?Hal, and Green Lanterns in general, have a fairly long and consistent history of teleporting. And yes, Hal has done it fairly recently, in Brave and the Bold.
Hulk had a long history of not being able to breathe underwater or in space. He'd even pass out. Now he can. Do we take what's current over what used to be consistent? Yes, we do. Not applying it simply because it makes your favorite characters "weaker" or "less versatile" is a double-standard. I don't remember Hal teleporting in Brave and the Bold. Feel free to post it, and I'll post the dozen+ scans where GLs outright state they can't teleport or had to rely on boosters/hyperspace travel to get from point A to point B. Then we can weigh this evidence. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this.
Originally posted by DesaadShow me the last time Hal transmuted matter. I'll show the dozen+ times where transmuting matter even in the most simple and basic form would have solved a GLs crisis and the scan that literally states they can't create oxygen. Then we can weigh this evidence again. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this.
I have to say, it seems as though you WANT it to be thrown into doubt. Not only does Hal have a long history of transmuting matter, not only do GL's have a long history of transmuting matter, but even by the most restrictive caveats Hal has shown matter transmutation abilities. Again, in Brave and the Bold.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Ouch.
GL's can't teleport. Otherwise, that notion wouldn't have been outright stated by GLs and the Indigo Tribe during Blackest Night. If GLs could teleport they wouldn't be caught in nearly half of the messes they find themselves in. Hal's about precision and doing precisely what's needed to get the job done. That doesn't make you more combat effective in a fight unless you're actually capable of getting the job done. And Surfer's superior versatility and sheer power differential make him far more capable of getting jobs done."Crippling" was an understatement. Most GLs get completely knocked unconscious due to feedback. And against a foe like Surfer, feedback from his constructs shattering will make a difference.You mean like how Surfer habitually uses his board to hit his foes from behind? Against Barry? When they're not really fighting? Who he knows like his own brother? I hope you're not going to cite him chaining up Zoom for all of two seconds before Zoom escapes. Superspeed > GLs.
Not on Surfer's level. Tangent Flash did it too recently. Only time I've seen Hal turn Dr. Light's own power on him was pre-Crisis. I can't remember the last time a GL beat an energy manipulator at his own game of energy manipulation. Obviously the writers define what GLs can or cannot do. But whether or not you think it's fair, GLs inability to teleport has been made clear for the past decade or more. I'm not going to waste time arguing this point.
Hulk had a long history of not being able to breathe underwater or in space. He'd even pass out. Now he can. Do we take what's current over what used to be consistent? Yes, we do. Not applying it simply because it makes your favorite characters "weaker" or "less versatile" is a double-standard. I don't remember Hal teleporting in Brave and the Bold. Feel free to post it, and I'll post the dozen+ scans where GLs outright state they can't teleport or had to rely on boosters/hyperspace travel to get from point A to point B. Then we can weigh this evidence. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this. Show me the last time Hal transmuted matter. I'll show the dozen+ times where transmuting matter even in the most simple and basic form would have solved a GLs crisis and the scan that literally states they can't create oxygen. Then we can weigh this evidence again. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this.
Originally posted by DesaadFinally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.
Before this goes any further, I should mention that Pre-Crisis history is in continuity as far as I (and GL writers) are concerned. I recognize that there is a trend to limit the versatility and 'plot deviceness' of characters in the modern age - by most writers, anyway - but that doesn't wipe away any of that old continuity, anymore than the Silver Age Surfer/Thor stories aren't valid because of their silliness.I believe we've gone over this ad nauseum in the past, and I know you don't agree, so it might be better that we leave it here. I'd be more than willing to continue if you want, though.
Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.
You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.
And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.
You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.
And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.
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