Hulk not angry = about to be killed by Juggernaut with relative ease.
Hulk angry = suddenly the tables are turned?
lolz.
Juggernaut had the upper hand as he always had. Juggernaut was not impressed by Hulk's outburst in the least. (ratherhe was shocked that Hulk was stupid enough to think he accomplished anything and once again reiterated that he's unstoppable before ****ing xavier and crew showed up)
Nor should any of you. It's not an impressive strength feat at all. His arm was not restrained so nothing was keeping him from grabbing Jugg's helmet, two, again he spun around 900 lbs while angry and catching Juggernaut off guard who's hands were busy trying to break Hulk's neck. Big deal.
Seeing as Juggernaut at classic levels was still superior to WWH, it should be obvious that his power level is high as he wants it to be. Not to mention a couple of editorial statements that corrobarate this.
What is WBH going to do? Knock Juggernaut out? Lol. I suppose his punch would simply erase him from existence? That's what it would have to do top Juggernaut being turned into a skeleton and still being completely functional.
when he actually lists off the things he's tired of, it does seem like frustration is the most reasonable description. nothing more than, "give it a break".
anyway, it's interesting how people speculate that Juggernaut is as strong as Savage Hulk, when Juggernaut has no feats that even come remotely close to supporting such hype. yet whenever high-end Hulk feats are presented, they are down played or quibbled over without respite. seems to be classic double-standards.
btw, didn't "classic" Juggernaut get buried under a mountain for ages and get halted by cement?
wasn't it also "classic" Juggernaut who got beaten silly by WarHulk and KTFO'd by Onslaught?
seems to me that this is merely a proxy battle for the dignity of Thor, given that not even the blindest rabid fanboy could argue that Juggernaut constantly humbles and embarrasses Thor, it's somehow crucial to raise up Juggernaut's stock such that Hulk doesn't look quite so glaringly superior when comparing performances against Juggernaut..
KMC definitely has a devout Church of Thor thing going on ✅
And hulk is less than an insect to Beyonder. What's your point?
Juggernaut did not in fact get halted by cement. He sunk to the bottom and then tunneled his way through and out
WBH does not have Celestial tech like Warhulk does. No he didn't get KO'd by onslaught At least not that they showed. Off panel. Mindrape most likely.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
And hulk is less than an insect to Beyonder. What's your point?Juggernaut did not in fact get halted by cement. He sunk to the bottom and then tunneled his way through and out
WBH does not have Celestial tech like Warhulk does. No he didn't get KO'd by Cytorrak. At least not that they showed. Off panel. Mindrape most likely.
well, whatever, you're a bit mangled on the logic and cogency front there.
how did Juggernaut perform against the mountain? if I'm not mistaken Hulk likes to brace mountain ranges and toss about mountains for fun...
anyway, anything by way of proof of Juggernaut's strength? say something that would be around Thor-levels? I really don't recall him doing much that Thing or Colossus would have trouble doing...
I edited the typo before your post.
I believe the mountain thing for Juggs was retconned, not sure. As for Hulk. He braced a portion of a mountain while angry. Obviously he's not supporting the weight of an entire mountain on his back because it extends farther than a few cubic feet...I don't know why people bring that feat up constantly because its not particularly impressive as far as high tiers go.
Thor throwing the serpent, bigger than continents, let alone a mountain range, is a far greater feat.
Actually both Hulk and Thor have a more vast array of strength feats than Juggernaut. Strangely they never seem to look stronger in direct confrontations with him despite that. Wonder why... /sarcasm
Originally posted by janus77
when he actually lists off the things he's tired of, it does seem like frustration is the most reasonable description. nothing more than, "give it a break".
Lulz.
Originally posted by janus77
anyway, it's interesting how people speculate that Juggernaut is as strong as Savage Hulk, when Juggernaut has no feats that even come remotely close to supporting such hype. yet whenever high-end Hulk feats are presented, they are down played or quibbled over without respite. seems to be classic double-standards.btw, didn't "classic" Juggernaut get buried under a mountain for ages and get halted by cement?
wasn't it also "classic" Juggernaut who got beaten silly by WarHulk and KTFO'd by Onslaught?
seems to me that this is merely a proxy battle for the dignity of Thor, given that not even the blindest rabid fanboy could argue that Juggernaut constantly humbles and embarrasses Thor, it's somehow crucial to raise up Juggernaut's stock such that Hulk doesn't look quite so glaringly superior when comparing performances against Juggernaut..
KMC definitely has a devout Church of Thor thing going on ✅
No one is purposefully trying to downplay Hulk here.
Not sure if his origin story has changed, but as far as I can tell, he was indeed buried under a mountain. He eventually dug himself out however. I wouldn't be too hung up on that however. This was early X-men era. He had to wait for it to dry as I recall. It was also revealed that he sunk down deep below ground, and had to punch his way out of bedrock etc.
He was stopped, and then tossed around with a cable. I think War knocked him down once again but that's about it as I recall. I'm not sure how the Onslaught think went. He pulled out the Gem from Cain's chest as I recall -not sure how that worked by the way- and then tossed him a long way. I think he was nearly knocked out. Not sure how applicable that would be to the Hulk.
You seem to be purposely trying to downplay Cain here. Do I get to try and do that to the Hulk?
Hey, remember when Captain America/Spider-Man knocked him out? Wasn't that fun? How about that cement truck? And, who could have guessed Hulk's one weakness was snakes? 😱
Lowballing. Double edged sword.
Hahaha. How about you go and actually read their fights?
I really like the church of Thor conspiracy theory.
Originally posted by CosmicCometso you mean that there is nothing to support your contention, by way of feats, save your need for it to be so? 😕
I edited the typo before your post.I believe the mountain thing for Juggs was retconned, not sure. As for Hulk. He braced a portion of a mountain while angry. Obviously he's not supporting the weight of an entire mountain on his back because it extends farther than a few cubic feet...I don't know why people bring that feat up constantly because its not particularly impressive as far as high tiers go.
Thor throwing the serpent, bigger than continents, let alone a mountain range, is a far greater feat.
Actually both Hulk and Thor have a more vast array of strength feats than Juggernaut. Strangely they never seem to look stronger in direct confrontations with him despite that. Wonder why... /sarcasm
btw, if you look at the times of the posts as well as the fact that I quote the post, in its pre-edited form, it would be more believable that you edited after I quoted (and queried the bizarreness of your statement).
also, the keyword in the bracing feat was +range+ as in more than a single mountain, in fact in the instance I refer to, it was stated to be something akin to the Andes range.
you remember how long it took Juggernaut to get out from under the mountain?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lulz.No one is purposefully trying to downplay Hulk here.
Not sure if his origin story has changed, but as far as I can tell, he was indeed buried under a mountain. He eventually dug himself out however. I wouldn't be too hung up on that however. This was early X-men era. He had to wait for it to dry as I recall. It was also revealed that he sunk down deep below ground, and had to punch his way out of bedrock etc.
He was stopped, and then tossed around with a cable. I think War knocked him down once again but that's about it as I recall. I'm not sure how the Onslaught think went. He pulled out the Gem from Cain's chest as I recall -not sure how that worked by the way- and then tossed him a long way. I think he was nearly knocked out. Not sure how applicable that would be to the Hulk.
You seem to be purposely trying to downplay Cain here. Do I get to try and do that to the Hulk?
Hey, remember when Captain America/Spider-Man knocked him out? Wasn't that fun? How about that cement truck? And, who could have guessed Hulk's one weakness was snakes? 😱
Lowballing. Double edged sword.
Hahaha. How about you go and actually read their fights?
I really like the church of Thor conspiracy theory.
Originally posted by Ladies_Man_666You say angriest possible. I say angriest seen so far. And everything he's done in that angry state... is just struggle to control and reign it in rather than bust out.
Oh. In that case, I do believe that's a possibility.
@ Italic: Is it really? I do know that Hulk's strength is variable, but that's only because his anger levels change, and since WBH is the angriest possible Hulk, shouldn't there be a limit to his strength? Or is it the angriest Hulk we have seen?Xavier? Wasn't it some other guy? I distinctly remember Juggernaut getting freaked out first, then after the shock he was on his knees mumbling something. Maybe he got KO'd afterwards, I dunno. But nevertheless, that was a very weakened Juggernaut. He was damn near clinically dead for a few minutes just before that happened.
EDIT: [B]Okay, I checked Uncanny X-Men 322. It was Beast who noted that, and Juggy wasn't out. He just fell down to his knees.
[/B]
I'm talking about Wolverine #93 where we see the aftermath and Juggernaut wakes up after having been knocked out. I actually can't recall the specifics of Uncanny X-Men #322 at the moment. Scans?
Originally posted by CosmicCometWar Hulk would get his sh1t pushed in by WBH. And the only way a mindrape would make sense is if Onslaught made Juggernaut (w/ his helmet still on) jump from Canada into the U.S. and land on his head... since IIRC, Juggernaut was fully armored when he landed in Canada.
WBH does not have Celestial tech like Warhulk does. No he didn't get KO'd by onslaught At least not that they showed. Off panel. Mindrape most likely.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Another lulz.When Hulk was screaming he was tired of Cain, I'm sure that was intended to be frustration and not anger. Yeppers.
Originally posted by Galan007^ This is the right answer.
Aye. We saw what happened when Hulk actually got angry.
Originally posted by CosmicCometThat's exactly what happened.
Hulk not angry = about to be killed by Juggernaut with relative ease.Hulk angry = suddenly the tables are turned?
Originally posted by janus77
downplaying?
I was asking for strength feats, for examples of this infinite reserve of power and strength that you credit him with.
the mountain is merely an incident that I recall that demonstrates a lack of strength on his part... if you could show me good feats, maybe I'd rate him higher than Thing or Colossus on the strength front.
So you weren't trying to downplay him? Sure seemed like it to me. You could just admit it, I won't care. I've downplayed characters before for different reasons. I'm not here to make accusations however. Especially on such a topic.
I never claimed such a thing. If you want to continue arguing this point, I'd be glad to see you quote me. I do however believe there's evidence to support the stance he has some form of dynamic strength, although I'm not sure how thorough it is.
He was created, and then buried under a mountain or some shit. He then dug his way out. Considering this was early era X-men, I'm not sure how fair that is to use as a knock against Cain. I don't know if it was ever revealed that there was more to the scene.
Juggernaut doesn't have much in the way of lifting feats if that's what your looking for. His more like Thanos or Doomsday in that regard. It's clear his high up the food chain though.
His quite clearly beyond Thing or Colossus in strength however. There respective performances against Green Scar alone backs up that stance.
not really a good basis for such a contention. Juggernaut is far more durable than Thing or Colossus, therefore he would last longer against Hulk, but did he actually display anything much strength-wise? I have yet to see it.
as far as I can see, he's don't nothing much to even begin to support the idea that he is a close peer to Thor, in strength, nevermind Hulk.
as for Thanos, he's clearly on another tier in terms of power, though in strength, who knows. I would feel confident backing Hulk to out do him in h2h, but I doubt Hulk would ever win against Thanos.
Originally posted by janus77
not really a good basis for such a contention. Juggernaut is far more durable than Thing or Colossus, therefore he would last longer against Hulk, but did he actually display anything much strength-wise? I have yet to see it.as far as I can see, he's don't nothing much to even begin to support the idea that he is a close peer to Thor, in strength, nevermind Hulk.
as for Thanos, he's clearly on another tier in terms of power, though in strength, who knows. I would feel confident backing Hulk to out do him in h2h, but I doubt Hulk would ever win against Thanos.
So you didn't see the part where he locked up evenly with the Green Scar? Or what about him trading blows evenly? Durability alone can only take you so far.
For some more strength related feats: he caused magnitude 8 tremors when he was beating on Banner and he knocked over a Skyscraper by bumping it with his shoulder. He also dropped the Stranger with one hit and caused a shock wave or an earthquake -can't remember which- throughout an entire valley by pounding the ground.
Juggernaut is pretty clearly beyond either Thing or Colossus strength wise. Colossus hasn't fared that well at all againt Cain straight up from what I've seen. His right up there in the Hulk's class.
His briefly traded blows pretty evenly with Thor. I've never seen anyone deny Cain is up there with Thor or the Hulk.
So, you rely mostly on lifting feats or something? Thanos has held his own against Blood and Thunder Thor for example. His obviously up there strength wise as well. A smidge above that of an average portrayal of the Hulk in my opinion. 99% of the time, Hulk operates in the same class as Superman or Thor.
locking up/trading blows with Hulk only means something in the right context. Green Scar also traded blows with Colossus, for a spell. it was only that Colossus couldn't handle the Hulk's attacks at all, that caused that fight to end quickly.
shoulder barging a building is Colossus level, I would imagine. Hercules moved Manhattan, no? that's impressive, Hercules got floored by a few punches from Green Scar, does that make Hercules weaker than Colossus, not really, just different context.
Hulk locked up with Juggernaut, stopped him, then bfr'd him, was there much strength involved on Juggernaut's part? imo no, just his magical "unstoppability".
Thanos didn't out muscle PG Thor, did he? iirc, he used energy attacks and force fields etc. Thanos doesn't resort to much h2h.
durability is the only thing Juggernaut's really demonstrated, to be honest. and it takes him very far, because he is monsterously durable, far more than Hulk or Thor, though of course Hulk's HF is dynamic and powerful enough to bring him back from total atomisation (and that is likely not the limit of his HF).
the richter-scale punches are good, they do place him above Colossus, but not in the league of say Skaar, who can obviously punch with a lot more ... punch than that.
I'm looking for something to indicate that Juggernaut can give as good as he takes. that he could punch with the force of a GodBlast say, because we've seen him take one.
Originally posted by janus77
locking up/trading blows with Hulk only means something in the right context. Green Scar also traded blows with Colossus, for a spell. it was only that Colossus couldn't handle the Hulk's attacks at all, that caused that fight to end quickly.
What context? They locked up on panel. There were no outside factors or circumstances. That’s also the case for the part where they traded blows evenly.
Haha what? We saw the Hulk literally stand there while Colossus pounds on him –apparently having no visible effect and he even claimed they couldn't hurt him- while getting punched away once, and withstanding a back hand. Other mutants were involved in the attack as well. He later on locks up with Colossus, and promptly bends his arms.
Yea, Colossus and Juggernaut were definitely in the same strength class in that arc....
Originally posted by janus77
shoulder barging a building is Colossus level, I would imagine. Hercules moved Manhattan, no? that's impressive, Hercules got floored by a few punches from Green Scar, does that make Hercules weaker than Colossus, not really, just different context.
Bringing down a Skyscraper with a ram from his shoulder isn't something I see Colossus doing on an average basis personally.
The Thing was barely conscious after 3 simple hits from Cain by the way.
……..What?
Originally posted by janus77
Hulk locked up with Juggernaut, stopped him, then bfr'd him, was there much strength involved on Juggernaut's part? imo no, just his magical "unstoppability".
So your one of the people that believes Juggernaut’s unstoppable enchantment was in play? Okay. Fine. I still don’t understand how you can look at that scene and come to the conclusion there wasn’t much strength in play.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0027.jpg
Thanks to Knowsbleed
Look at their arms. Even if the enchantment was in play, that doesn’t magically mean Juggernaut’s muscles can match the strength that of the Hulk’s without being on the same level strength wise.
Originally posted by janus77
Thanos didn't out muscle PG Thor, did he? iirc, he used energy attacks and force fields etc. Thanos doesn't resort to much h2h.
No he didn’t outmuscle him, but he held his own and traded blows mostly evenly. That’s meant to indicate they were on the same level strength wise at least.
Yes, he opened up with a blast of energy and used a force field but other than that, it was all strength.
Originally posted by janus77
durability is the only thing Juggernaut's really demonstrated, to be honest. and it takes him very far, because he is monsterously durable, far more than Hulk or Thor, though of course Hulk's HF is dynamic and powerful enough to bring him back from total atomisation (and that is likely not the limit of his HF).
Then you haven’t been paying much attention have you?
A high level of durability wouldn’t allow him to trade blows evenly with the Hulk:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0023-24.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg
Thanks to Knowsbleed
If he was only incredibly durable, he wouldn’t have seemed on Thor’s level strength wise here either:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor3.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor4.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor7.jpg
Durability alone wouldn't have allowed him to do what he did to the Savage Hulk in their first battle. It wouldn't have allowed him to knock out the Merged Hulk either. Granted, he didn't know it was the Juggernaut.
Juggernaut is on the same level as Thor and the Hulk strength wise. There is no reasonable way to deny that. The durability card can only take you so far.
Juggernaut once stated he was easily as strong as Thor when he was surprised he couldn’t lift Mjolnir. That in itself doesn’t mean anything. Thor however commenting that it was not a lack of strength but of character does.
Originally posted by janus77
the richter-scale punches are good, they do place him above Colossus, but not in the league of say Skaar, who can obviously punch with a lot more ... punch than that.
Context. You know the thing you were arguing was so important a few paragraphs ago. Skaar was tapping into the power of moving tectonic plates.
And I completely disagree with the Juggernaut not being in the same league of Skaar. 100 trillion tons of force, isn’t impressive when you look at the scale Superman/Thor have worked at. I consider Cain to be on that level.
Originally posted by janus77
I'm looking for something to indicate that Juggernaut can give as good as he takes. that he could punch with the force of a GodBlast say, because we've seen him take one.
Haha what? Punch with the force of a God Blast? No Top Tier, Trans or even most Skyfather’s strength wise can do that resembling anything on average. At least any God Blast besides the one Cain took. Even the one used against Cain did something we had never seen by that point, stopping and pushing back the Juggernaut, which was why it was so impressive at the time. Which is also something I don't see any Top Tier accomplishing strength wise.
For the record, I’m not arguing Cain is as strong as he is durable but he is a high end Class 100.
