Thor Vs. Firelord and Air-Walker

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It doesn't make sense because it logically flows from the premise that Thor enjoyed an amp during Blood and Thunder. That's the point. The entire storyline and several other fights become absurd taking your premise at face value.

And normal BRB both exhausted and battered, toppled an amped Thor in four shots? No. If Thor was indeed amped, that was the biggest moment of PIS during the whole thing. Accordingly, some off-panel super amp for BRB was in play if Thor's ambiguous off-panel amp is so clearly evident.

And I don't have any problem saying that an amped Thor shouldn't be put down that easy, but I'd rather write off that one instance that allowed for Bill to point out that Thor was drawing strength from his madness than damn near every other fight in the arc where he was taking down his peers with the greatest of ease.

^ No. Is the only possible explanation in your opinion on Thor beating up Warlock and Surfer that Thor received a massive amp off-panel?

Right. You're gonna write off that instance because it's utterly dispositive of your theory that Thor was amped. How convenient. BRB toppling Thor isn't completely an indication that Thor wasn't operating at some massively amped level. And this maneuver of your's doesn't completely undermine the viability of your entire underlying premise!

👆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ No. Is the only possible explanation in your opinion on Thor beating up Warlock and Surfer that Thor received a massive amp off-panel?

Right. You're gonna write off that instance because it's utterly dispositive of your theory that Thor was amped. How convenient. BRB toppling Thor isn't completely an indication that Thor wasn't operating at some massively amped level. And this maneuver of your's doesn't completely undermine the viability of your entire underlying premise!

👆

Hey sometimes you just have to throw some things out that don't fit with the characters, it's just the way it is. Do you honestly accept EVERY interaction between characters as being legit as every other one? If so, then you can look at the fact that at his normal power levels Thor said a single warning blast from Surfer would have killed him while in Blood and Thunder Thor was all but laughing off Surfer's blasts as an indication that Thor was amped for the arc.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not necessarily, but it's the most obvious interpretation for someone who never read the first fight.

Debatable. Of course I read the first fight before I read the second so I can't fairly comment on this.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No, that you were wrong in saying your interpretation of Warlock's statement is the obvious one to anyone who'd read both fights.

schmoll Fine. It's obvious to anyone who isn't trying to explain away Surfer and co's performance.

I don't see how it isn't fairly obvious. In the first fight, Thor fights purely like a brick. You could trade him in for an intelligent, and skilled Hulk, and there wouldn't be any difference. In the second fight, Thor was actually fighting like a God. There a distinct difference between how Thor fought in those two fights.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And you seem to think that your refusal to accept what so many consider to be obvious somehow changes or invalidates my stance... and it doesn't.

In regards to interpretation, absolutely.

Since it's obvious and you clearly have so many intelligent peers -not butt hurt cosmic fans- on your side would you please care to explain to me what I'm missing?

That Warlock's comment meant to indicate that the Blood and Thunder Thor was more powerful than a blood crazed Thor?

I don't see how you can prove that in anyway. You can prove that the Blood and Thunder Thor that fought Warlock seemed to be was more powerful than the version that Him fought.

I'm assuming your agreeing with me there.

Originally posted by darthgoober
What makes you think I accept them doing so? I don't accept ANY character steamrolling someone who's been portrayed as a peer as definitive proof of how a fight between the two should go down. Hell after the Bill/Surfer fight in Godhunter I was one of(if not THE) first Surfer fan to step forward and say that Bill shouldn't have been beaten that easily and that the fight should have gone down far differently.

It thought you weren't even trying anymore.

I don't have a problem with what Thor did however. Besides the fact that I love high end showings for Thor, and think that he was perfectly capable of accomplishing what he did in Blood and Thunder under his own power. Why do I care that **** like Bran scream PIS? Can't accept it, then don't debate in thread regarding the subject.

I'm fine with the Bill/Surfer fight. Surfer should be slightly more powerful than Bill. He also caught Bill off guard with the board to the back of the head/neck, then followed up with blows to the face. Bill was matching him before that in my opinion. I'd have liked for Bill too put up more of a fight.

Originally posted by darthgoober
In the manner he did... absolutely(outside of PIS of course). And again, Bill's statement and the instance that prompted it both happened on panel.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey sometimes you just have to throw some things out that don't fit with the characters, it's just the way it is. Do you honestly accept EVERY interaction between characters as being legit as every other one? If so, then you can look at the fact that at his normal power levels Thor said a single warning blast from Surfer would have killed him while in Blood and Thunder Thor was all but laughing off Surfer's blasts as an indication that Thor was amped for the arc.

Let me guess. Another off-panel amp.

In my humble opinion Blood & Thunder gets touted and misconstrued far too often. There were circumstances in that arc that Thor can't willingly reproduce. For the record, Thor was apeshit crazy in that arc due to years of mystical manipulation of his mind and soul by Odin, so much so that his insanity took on a form and identity of it's own (Valkyrie) and actually had sex with Thor. He was so crazy he f*cked a figment of his imagination man. In my opinion, anyone who tries to use Blood & Thunder as an example of what Thor is capable of under his own power is deluded. The whole premise of that arc was that Thor had been driven near irreparably insane due to the manipulations of his soul by Odin. Context people.

Smh...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Debatable. Of course I read the first fight before I read the second so I can't fairly comment on this.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
schmoll Fine. It's obvious to anyone who isn't trying to explain away Surfer and co's performance.

I don't see how it isn't fairly obvious. In the first fight, Thor fights purely like a brick. You could trade him in for an intelligent, and skilled Hulk, and there wouldn't be any difference. In the second fight, Thor was actually fighting like a God. There a distinct difference between how Thor fought in those two fights.

Yeah he does fight differently, and that MIGHT be what Warlock was talking about, but IMO he was saying Thor was more powerful.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Since it's obvious and you clearly have so many intelligent peers -not butt hurt cosmic fans- on your side would you please care to explain to me what I'm missing?

That Warlock's comment meant to indicate that the Blood and Thunder Thor was more powerful than a blood crazed Thor?

I don't see how you can prove that in anyway. You can prove that the Blood and Thunder Thor that fought Warlock seemed to be was more powerful than the version that Him fought.

I'm assuming your agreeing with me there.

I can't prove my interpretation of Warlock's statement anymore than you can prove yours.

Agreeing with you on what? I'm saying that numbers ARE valid in figuring out which is the more obvious interpretation, I thought you were saying differently?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It thought you weren't even trying anymore.

I don't have a problem with what Thor did however. Besides the fact that I love high end showings for Thor, and think that he was perfectly capable of accomplishing what he did in Blood and Thunder under his own power. Why do I care that **** like Bran scream PIS? Can't accept it, then don't debate in thread regarding the subject.

I'm fine with the Bill/Surfer fight. Surfer should be slightly more powerful than Bill. He also caught Bill off guard with the board to the back of the head/neck, then followed up with blows to the face. Bill was matching him before that in my opinion. I'd have liked for Bill too put up more of a fight.

Fraid it doesn't work like that. See the whole "no PIS" thing is a forum rule so people who argue it aren't the one's who need to find a new subject to debate, the people who refuse to discuss the concept are.

Well I'm not, because the two are too close in power for Bill to end up in a fetal position so quickly. Regardless though, I was just pointing out that I'm not catering to a double standard like you thought.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Butt-hurt =/= off-panel amp. I've heard idiots say everything from "it was Warriors Madness amp" when it states on-panel it wasn't Warriors Madness. I've seen idiots state "Thor one-shotted Surfer, it must be PIS" when Thor laid into Surfer not a minute prior. BRB had already fought Thor 1v1 prior to the bout he had when Surfer joined in. Not a single exclamation of Thor's ampage. Surfer doesn't warn Warlock about this astounding ampage when they fight together. Acting like BRB's statement necessarily flowed from Thor's off-panel amp is about as stupid as a butt-hurt Darkseid fan arguing that "Superman drew strength from his courage" = unfair amp or pure PIS.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And sometimes you have to cut off the nose to spite the face. Especially when you're butt-hurt. Thor wasn't laughing off Surfer's blasts. Re-read the fight. And he's been hit by Surfer's blasts before in other fights and wasn't slayed:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsSilverSurfer03.jpg

Let me guess. Another off-panel amp.

From what I remember Thor mocked his blasts and called them "feeble", that's all but laughing IMO.

Nope not an amp for Thor, just Surfer from his inconsistant depowered period.

Originally posted by illadelph12
In my humble opinion Blood & Thunder gets touted and misconstrued far too often. There were circumstances in that arc that Thor can't willingly reproduce. For the record, Thor was apeshit crazy in that arc due to years of mystical manipulation of his mind and soul by Odin, so much so that his insanity took on a form and identity of it's own (Valkyrie) and actually had sex with Thor. He was so crazy he f*cked a figment of his imagination man. In my opinion, anyone who tries to use Blood & Thunder as an example of what Thor is capable of under his own power is deluded. The whole premise of that arc was that Thor had been driven near irreparably insane due to the manipulations of his soul by Odin. Context people.

Smh...

I agree with you to an extant, but again it was under his own power. it has been stated many times that Thor can achieve 10x his base strength, if he was in a warriors madness mental state. this fact can not be discounted. Which is why in this scenario, Thor would whoop this measly duo.

Originally posted by Stoic
I agree with you to an extant, but again it was under his own power. it has been stated many times that Thor can achieve 10x his base strength, if he was in a warriors madness mental state. this fact can not be discounted. Which is why in this scenario, Thor would whoop this measly duo.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not really. It's only been stated once(at least to my knowledge) that it was possible for him to reach 10x strength, and in the issue it was mentioned Thor wasn't able to pull it off successfully.

How do we know when Thor is in this state of mind? Is it when his eyes are blood red? The fact that it is mentioned at all in comics is indicative of it being able to happen. Didn't Hercules state that Thor was in trhis state when he fought the Hulk in the arctic, and vowed that he would not fall again, and if he did it would be because he would be dead?

Sorry, but I think that when he fought the Infinity Watch, and the Surfer that he was in this state of mind. There was a time in that very battle that he was dominating, and he had not yet taken the power gem. Am I right, or did I miss something?

Originally posted by Stoic
How do we know when Thor is in this state of mind? Is it when his eyes are blood red? The fact that it is mentioned at all in comics is indicative of it being able to happen. Didn't Hercules state that Thor was in trhis state when he fought the Hulk in the arctic, and vowed that he would not fall again, and if he did it would be because he would be dead?

Sorry, but I think that when he fought the Infinity Watch, and the Surfer that he was in this state of mind. There was a time in that very battle that he was dominating, and he had not yet taken the power gem. Am I right, or did I miss something?

Depends on who you ask TBO. It was definately similar to Warrior Madness in a lot of ways, but as you can see if you look back over the thread there are a few people who don't believe Thor was amped.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not sure there is any definite indication, but in the story an actual 10x amp was mentioned Thor talked about how he was unable to achieve it.

Depends on who you ask TBO. It was definately similar to Warrior Madness in a lot of ways, but as you can see if you look back over the thread there are a few people who don't believe Thor was amped.

At the same time though, Firelord? He's a booty joker, that can't fight, and Air Walker the cyborg? c'mon, Thor would beat the construct faster than you could drink a beer... if you like beer that is. What's fire going to do to a guy that can battle in the sun? Firelord has never once showed that he can fight. I don't mean to bring up his most embarrassing moment but Spidey kicked his a$$ in. I just don't see Spiderman doing this to Thor... not ever. Thor would break the robot, and put Firelord out like a dirty cigarette. I still can't figure out how this guy lived long enough to meet Vance Astro from the Guardians of the Galaxy (Future tense).

Originally posted by illadelph12
In my humble opinion Blood & Thunder gets touted and misconstrued far too often. There were circumstances in that arc that Thor can't willingly reproduce. For the record, Thor was apeshit crazy in that arc due to years of mystical manipulation of his mind and soul by Odin, so much so that his insanity took on a form and identity of it's own (Valkyrie) and actually had sex with Thor. He was so crazy he f*cked a figment of his imagination man. In my opinion, anyone who tries to use Blood & Thunder as an example of what Thor is capable of under his own power is deluded. The whole premise of that arc was that Thor had been driven near irreparably insane due to the manipulations of his soul by Odin. Context people.

Smh...

Originally posted by Stoic
At the same time though, Firelord? He's a booty joker, that can't fight, and Air Walker the cyborg? c'mon, Thor would beat the construct faster than you could drink a beer... if you like beer that is. What's fire going to do to a guy that can battle in the sun? Firelord has never once showed that he can fight. I don't mean to bring up his most embarrassing moment but Spidey kicked his a$$ in. I just don't see Spiderman doing this to Thor... not ever. Thor would break the robot, and put Firelord out like a dirty cigarette. I still can't figure out how this guy lived long enough to meet Vance Astro from the Guardians of the Galaxy (Future tense).

And you also have to take into consideration the fact that Airwalker is perfectly capable of wielding Thor's hammer against him(again) and that he nearly succeded in killing him with it in their first battle...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Thor's not only been unable to put Firelord down for the count like 3 times now, Firelord even managed to match the energy output of Thor's hammer. Plus he's got a couple of decent showings against Surfer too. As for SMvF, even if we ignored the massive amount of PIS present, did you know Spiderman's also came very close to KOing Masterson Thor in the same manner(and with far less work I might add). And yeah I know Masterson wasn't as powerful as the real Thor, but he was close enough to show that him putting down Thor the same way isn't beyond the realm of possibility(at least not in a comic).

And you also have to take into consideration the fact that Airwalker is perfectly capable of wielding Thor's hammer against him(again) and that he nearly succeded in killing him with it in their first battle...

Current Thor? He put down the Destroyer, he's gotten more powerful than he was back in the day, back in the day the Destroyer totaled him every time. This must be noted, and taken into consideration.

Originally posted by Stoic
Current Thor? He put down the Destroyer, he's gotten more powerful than he was back in the day, back in the day the Destroyer totaled him every time. This must be noted, and taken into consideration.

Originally posted by illadelph12
In my humble opinion Blood & Thunder gets touted and misconstrued far too often. There were circumstances in that arc that Thor can't willingly reproduce. For the record, Thor was apeshit crazy in that arc due to years of mystical manipulation of his mind and soul by Odin, so much so that his insanity took on a form and identity of it's own (Valkyrie) and actually had sex with Thor. He was so crazy he f*cked a figment of his imagination man. In my opinion, anyone who tries to use Blood & Thunder as an example of what Thor is capable of under his own power is deluded. The whole premise of that arc was that Thor had been driven near irreparably insane due to the manipulations of his soul by Odin. Context people.

Smh...

Clearly, this makes perfect sense. 👆

Originally posted by darthgoober
I get it ODG, you don't believe he was amped an nothing that's currently in existence will convince you otherwise. I was never trying to convince you, just answer your questions in regards to why I believe he was ampled.

From what I remember Thor mocked his blasts and called them "feeble", that's all but laughing IMO.

He called them "pathetic." He also called BRB a "pale imitation" . . . right before BRB hit him four times and laid Thor out. Oh right. That's also PIS... or BRB enjoyed a super off-panel amp to overcome Thor's off-panel amp... or let's just conveniently ignore it altogether.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Nope not an amp for Thor, just Surfer from his inconsistant depowered period while amped by Loki.

Originally posted by Stoic
Current Thor? He put down the Destroyer, he's gotten more powerful than he was back in the day, back in the day the Destroyer totaled him every time. This must be noted, and taken into consideration.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Didn't he take out the Destroyer when he had the Odin Force? Cause he doesn't have that anymore...

Wow I stopped reading Thor for a bit, I never knew he lost it. Even so, Firelord has lost cred with me, I think Annihilation cinched it for me, when a horde of thugs nearly tore him to pieces. Your points are noted, and valid.