Thor Vs. Firelord and Air-Walker

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah it can be explaned away just like the majority of statements ever made in comics, but it doesn't make the interpretation any less valid. You obviously don't trust Warlock's memory, I do.

And ultimately, I take the story at face value. I also take people's theories at face value. Taking your theory at face value, for whatever reason, nobody mentions Thor's amp. Except for Surfer fans.

Also, apparently the story-arc is about how Thor receives two amps: (i) one from his insanity, and (ii) the second from the Power Gem. Like the entire story was: "zomg, Thor is so uber-ampd from his insanity -- which may be Warriors Madness even though Odin says it's not -- and now he's even more super-uber-amped when he gets the Power Gem!!!!11"

Yeah. I'm sure that's the exact outline of the story as envisioned: Thor is on a deranged rampage (but it's a dangerous one because of an off-panel amp -- not because he's simply unhinged) and gets even more dangerous when he gets the Power Gem (making his off-panel previous amp superfluous... and still off-panel).

Makes complete sense. 👆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Warlock doesn't even trust his own memory.

And ultimately, I take the story at face value. I also take people's theories at face value. Taking your theory at face value, for whatever reason, nobody mentions Thor's amp. Except for Surfer fans.

Also, apparently the story-arc is about how Thor receives two amps: [b](i) one from his insanity, and (ii) the second from the Power Gem. Like the entire story was: "zomg, Thor is so uber-ampd from his insanity -- which may be Warriors Madness even though Odin says it's not -- and now he's even more super-uber-amped when he gets the Power Gem!!!!11"

Yeah. I'm sure that's the exact outline of the story as envisioned: Thor is on a deranged rampage (but it's a dangerous one because of an off-panel amp -- not because he's simply unhinged) and gets even more dangerous when he gets the Power Gem (making his off-panel previous amp superfluous... and still off-panel).

Makes complete sense. 👆 [/B]

And Bill(and argueably Warlock) you mean.

Glad you agree with the rest though 😄 .

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're argueing opinion here. You believe he meant one thing, I believe he meant another.

It's a logical assumption. There was a clear difference between how Thor fought against Warlock and Him.

It doesn't really help your side that Warlock stated this right after Thor unleashed a giant wave of energy that knocked around Surfer/Warlock.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was pointing out that my statement that most agree there was an amp involved is accurate. Not all mind you, but I can all but guarantee there are more people on KMC that have posted to say they believe he was than those that believe he wasn't.

Well good for you, feel free to not doubt it. I remember there were a couple of posters who said they believed Lightray could pull off his "insane" feats if he stopped holding back too. I myself DO doubt it...

I'm not just assuming that, I'm basing it on stuff.

Question: What were you attempting to do by pointing out the majority of people believed an amp was involved?

I personally think you were trying to lend more credibility to your stance based on the fact that more people stood by it it but I want to hear your reasoning for bringing it up. I'm sure it was just a harmless point. ✅

What stuff?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

3) During his fight with Him, Thor fought solely like a a brick, throwing only punches. During his fight with Warlock and Surfer, Thor fought like a God. Energy projection, flying and so on was in full swing. Which would explain why Warlock believed Thor was more dangerous than he remembered.

[/B]

Set this in stone...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Warlock's hopeful that he's remembering wrong, big difference between that and actually doubting yourself.

And Bill(and argueably Warlock) you mean.

Glad you agree with the rest though 😄 .

Does interpreting Bill's comment about "drawing strength from the madness = off-panel amp" mean that every other generic comment about "drawing strength from your _____ = off-panel amp"?

Spiderman gains an off-panel amp when he's drawing strength from his courage? Superman gains an off-panel amp when he's drawing strength from his love?

BRB must have received the biggest off-panel amp since he was beaten up twice-over and actually toppled Thor with four blows. These off-panel amps are amazingly powerful.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's a logical assumption. There was a clear difference between how Thor fought against Warlock and Him.

It doesn't really help your side that Warlock stated this right after Thor unleashed a giant wave of energy that knocked around Surfer/Warlock.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Question: What were you attempting to do by pointing out the majority of people believed an amp was involved?

I think you were trying to lend more credibility to your stance based on the fact that more believed in it but I want to hear your reasoning for bringing it up. I'm sure it was just a harmless point. ✅

What stuff?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's exactly my point. He remembered wrong and was worried that he remembered wrong and was proven to have remembered wrong.

Does interpreting Bill's comment about "drawing strength from the madness = off-panel amp" mean that every other generic comment about "drawing strength from your _____ = off-panel amp"?

Spiderman gains an off-panel amp when he's drawing strength from his courage? Superman gains an off-panel amp when he's drawing strength from his love?

BRB must have received the biggest off-panel amp since he was beaten up twice-over and actually toppled Thor with four blows. These off-panel amps are amazingly powerful.

Nope. I don't believe Thor was amped JUST because of Bill's statement, it's just one part of the whole package. My believe comes from Bill's statement, Warlock's statement(s), and the way Thor preformed against his peers throughout the arc.

Originally posted by darthgoober
So is mine. The difference is that you have to research their previous fight and FIND a way to interpret it your way. My interpretation seems a little more obvious to readers who don't have that earlier fight to check out in detail. At least IMO...

What is exactly your assumption/interpretation?

That this Thor was more dangerous than the one Warlock fought previously based on his memory?

I don't have to find anything. It's fairly obvious to anybody who has read both fights. The simple fact that their first battle is mentioned and is the basis for Warlock's observation so much, means it nearly immediately becomes a key factor. At least if you're trying to understand what the writer was trying to convey with as much accuracy as possible. Starlin clearly read their first fight. We wouldn't be drawing from some foreign or unimportant source if we placed the first fight under our scrutiny.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That the arc is in no way definitive proof of anything. I know there's no limit on how many people can be wrong about something, but in matters regarding interpretation numbers give us an idea as to which is the more obvious(and therefore more likely) interpretation.

Except Thor can beat the shit out of his "peers" when his pissed.

You could have just said, "Yes, I'm doing exactly what you assumed I were."

I guess it's expected. You don't really have much of leg to stand on. Resorting to "numbers" make sense. I just hope you realize that a stance doesn't necessarily become more valid simple due to the fact that more people are behind it. Numbers =/= Validity. People are idiots. In this case, people are butt hurt idiots.

There was no amp.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You think he remembered wrong, I think Thor was more powerful than he was the first time around.

Nope. I don't believe Thor was amped JUST because of Bill's statement, it's just one part of the whole package. My believe comes from Bill's statement, Warlock's statement(s), and the way Thor preformed against his peers throughout the arc.

And clearly BRB must have received a super off-panel amp when he toppled Thor in four blows after receiving two ass-whoopings himself. That is, if I take your theory at face value:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsBetaRayBillSilverSurfer05.jpg

Wait... and even more, when BRB ambushed the Infinity Watch later on, PG-less Drax and Maxam must have received super-duper off-panel amps too because they toppled this super off-panel amped BRB with a pair of punches!!!! See it's all right here:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/BRB01.jpg

Wow! If I look hard enough, I can justify a whole truck-load of speculative off-panel amps!!! But we have to engage in this speculative bullsh1t, amirite? Otherwise PG-less Drax and Maxam two-shotting BRB is the biggest instance of PIS throughout all of Blood and Thunder and we can't accept such clear (still off-panel) PIS when we have a sh1tty speculative theory to manufacture! And crap, PG-less Drax and Maxam aren't that uber! Ya'll recognize?!

sam

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What is exactly your assumption/interpretation?

That this Thor was more dangerous than the one Warlock fought previously based on his memory?

I don't have to find anything. It's fairly obvious to anybody who has read both fights. The simple fact that their first battle is mentioned and is the basis for Warlock's observation so much, means it nearly immediately becomes a key factor. At least if you're trying to understand what the writer was trying to convey with as much accuracy as possible. Starlin clearly read their first fight. We wouldn't be drawing from some foreign source if we used the first fight in our scrutiny.

Anyone... really? Because I've read both fights, and I think Warlock was saying Thor's more powerful. And I can all but guarantee that others who've read both fights that think the same thing(I guess if you really want I can track down quotes of people saying so as long as you'll be willing to conceed the point afterwards).

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Except Thor can beat the shit out of his "peers" when his pissed.

You could have just said, "Yes, I'm doing exactly what you assumed I were."

I guess it's expected. You don't really have much of leg to stand on. Resorting to "numbers" make sense. I just hope you realize that a stance doesn't necessarily become more valid simple due to the fact more behind it. Numbers =/= Validity. People are idiots. In this case, people are butt hurt idiots.

There was no amp.

Again, were talking about a matter of interpretation. I could sit here at the computer all day going back and forth in a "Nuh Uh" "Uh huh" arguement about which interpretation is more valid and never make any headway, or I can point out that MOST people interpret an amp as being present to show that the arc isn't given much credit overall. I myself haven't debated with tLoM before and for all I know he's reasonable enough to accept that simple fact, so I figured I'd point it out to him.

Sure there was.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you're gonna try the whole "I'm-taking-everything-into-account," try taking into account that Warlock's own memory has been spotty in the past. That has been a part of his character.

And clearly BRB must have received a super off-panel amp when he toppled Thor in four blows after receiving two ass-whoopings himself. That is, if I take your theory at face value:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsBetaRayBillSilverSurfer05.jpg

Wait... and even more, when BRB ambushed the Infinity Watch later on, PG-less Drax and Maxam must have received super-duper off-panel amps too because they toppled this super off-panel amped BRB with a pair of punches!!!! See it's all right here:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/BRB01.jpg

Wow! If I look hard enough, I can justify a whole truck-load of speculative off-panel amps!!! But we have to engage in this speculative bullsh1t, amirite? Otherwise PG-less Drax and Maxam two-shotting BRB is the biggest instance of PIS throughout all of Blood and Thunder and we can't accept such clear (still off-panel) PIS when we have a sh1tty speculative theory to manufacture! And crap, PG-less Drax and Maxam aren't that uber! Ya'll recognize?!

sam

You keep saying off panel amp, but Bill saying that Thor was drawing strength from his madness happened on panel, as did the interaction between Thor and Valkarie that prompted the statement.

If you want to believe all that stuff feel free, I myself am trying to maintain a reasonable stance on the matter.

^ So you have completely legitimate explanations for both of those ambiguous statements and still can't help but conclude your way. Nice.

And BRB enjoying a super off-panel amp and PG-less Drax and Maxam enjoying a super-duper off panel amp is the only legitimate conclusion you can draw from your "reasonable stance" that Thor enjoyed an amp.

We're not completely descending into absurdity for the sake of wishful speculation at all. 👆

Originally posted by darthgoober
That Thor was more powerful than he is while in Warrior Madness.

Anyone... really? Because I've read both fights, and I think Warlock was saying Thor's more powerful. And I can all but guarantee that others who've read both fights that think the same thing(I guess if you really want I can track down quotes of people saying so as long as you'll be willing to conceed the point afterwards).

Do you not understand that Thor fought as if he indeed was more powerful in his fight with Warlock? That doesn't mean he actually is more powerful in reality. He is simply much more than a brick. I thought I had I explained this to you. In his fight with Him, Thor fought like the Hulk. In his fight against Warlock, Thor was unleashing waves of energy that tossed them around like rag-dolls and was a walking storm. Interestingly -not really- enough, said statement was made directly after Thor unleashing a wave of energy that knocked around Warlock and Surfer.

Of course Thor would seem more powerful to Warlock who has a more than likely bad/hazy recollection of Thor from years ago.

Danger =/= Power by the way

Concede what? That a bunch of Cosmic Power fans would love to have Blood and Thunder explained away with some vague amp? Sure. Why not.

You seem to think that I give a shit how many people agree with you or that this somehow changes or invalidates my stance. Hint: It doesn't.

Numbers =/= Validity

Originally posted by darthgoober
So can Superman, Hulk, etc., etc., etc.

Again, were talking about a matter of interpretation. I could sit here at the computer all day going back and forth in a "Nuh Uh" "Uh huh" arguement about which interpretation is more valid and never make any headway, or I can point out that MOST people interpret an amp as being present to show that the arc isn't given much credit overall. I myself haven't debated with tLoM before and for all I know he's reasonable enough to accept that simple fact, so I figured I'd point it out to him.

If you can accept them doing so, then what's the beef with Thor doing the same? Why does there have to be some sort of amp present when there was no mention of one? I mean, other than the fact that it would explain Surfer being on the receiving end of the Thor beat downs. Waitaminute! Could that possibly, maybe, probably, likely, without a doubt be the only reason your dragging on with this baseless stance? Could it be that your simply -dare I say it- butt-hurt?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I just hope you realize that a stance doesn't necessarily become more valid simple due to the fact more behind it. Numbers =/= Validity. People are idiots. In this case, people are butt hurt idiots.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So you have completely legitimate explanations for both of those ambiguous statements and still can't help but conclude your way. Nice.

And BRB enjoying a super off-panel amp and PG-less Drax and Maxam enjoying a super-duper off panel amp is the only legitimate conclusion you can draw from your "reasonable stance" that Thor enjoyed an amp.

We're not completely descending into absurdity for the sake of wishful speculation at all. 👆

Hey if you want to believe they were amped go ahead, I myself figure they took it to Thor for the same reason that Masterson momentarily took it to Thanos... for the sake of a good story.

Heh.

--------------------------

This is getting...boring.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Do you not understand that Thor fought as if he indeed as more powerful in his fight with Warlock? That doesn't mean he actually is more powerful in reality. He is simply much more than a brick. I thought I had I explained this to you. In his fight with Him, Thor fought like the Hulk. In his fight against Warlock, Thor was unleashing waves of energy that tossed them around like rag-dolls and was a walking storm. Interestingly -not really- enough, said statement was made directly after Thor unleashing a wave of energy that knocked around Warlock and Surfer.

Of course Thor would seem more powerful to Warlock who has a more than likely bad/hazy recollection of Thor from years ago.

Yeah you have a valid interpretation there, so do I.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Danger =/= Power by the way

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Concede what? That a bunch of Cosmic Power fans would love to have Blood and Thunder explained away with some vague amp? Sure. Why not.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You seem to think that I give a shit how many people agree with you or that this somehow changes or invalidates my stance. Hint: It doesn't.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Numbers =/= Validity

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

If you can accept them doing so, then what's the beef with Thor doing the same? Why does there have to be some sort of amp present when there was no mention of one? I mean, other than the fact that it would explain Surfer being on the receiving end of the Thor beat downs. Waitaminute! Could that possibly, maybe, probably, likely, without a doubt be the only reason your dragging on with this baseless stance? Could it be that your simply -dare I say it- butt-hurt?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Huh?

Hey if you want to believe they were amped go ahead, I myself figure they took it to Thor for the same reason that Masterson momentarily took it to Thanos... for the sake of a good story.

So their respective fights couldn't actually be them fighting within their normal performance levels, i.e., a hurt and desperate BRB toppling a non-amped vicious Thor and PG-less Drax and Maxam toppling a non-super amped BRB with punches. Which only makes sense if Thor wasn't amped and was just unhinged. Which couldn't possibly be the case... I mean, that ambiguous off-panel amp of Thor's was so clearly evident, amirite?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Huh.

So their respective fights couldn't actually be them fighting within their normal performance levels, i.e., a hurt and desperate BRB toppling a non-amped vicious Thor and PG-less Drax and Maxam toppling a non-super amped BRB with punches. Which only makes sense if Thor wasn't amped and was just unhinged. Which couldn't possibly be the case... I mean, that ambiguous off-panel amp of Thor's was so clearly evident, amirite?

Oh they could have been at normal levels, but Thor was amped IMO(for reason's I've already stated).

^ It doesn't make sense because it logically flows from the premise that Thor enjoyed an amp during Blood and Thunder. That's the point. The entire storyline and several other fights become absurd taking your premise at face value.

And normal BRB both exhausted and battered, toppled an amped Thor in four shots? No. If Thor was indeed amped, that was the biggest moment of PIS during the whole thing. Accordingly, some off-panel super amp for BRB was in play if Thor's ambiguous off-panel amp is so clearly evident.

Thor loses.