Marvel's Most Powerful Demon? Zom vs Shuma Gorath vs Chthon vs Set

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LMAO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthon_(Marvel_Comics)
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/chthonother.htm

The "Great Shadow".

What book specifically are you referring to because Arcana has about 4 books.

Lol, you do know that about a few decades before that story Dormammu claimed that not even "Supreme Satannish" could so buffet him as Strange was. Strange's attack, which was more potent due to Dormammu's deplete of power from his own promise, was doing what Dormammu says even Supreme Satannish couldn't. This is before that story you posted and appearances after that story point to Dormammu creating Satannish and Satannish losing to Mephisto. You have one argument where Strange says one thing while everything else says Dormammu is superior to Satannish and even his creator. Satannish was taking orders from Dormammu.

First appearances always make the villains out to be incredibly powerful. Stop ignoring this point. She was eating out of Dormammu's hand issues later - not 10 years. Dormammu kicked her ass and shackled Zom so deal with it. She run from Zom while Dormammu fought Eternity - the one who imprisoned Zom. How hard is that to understand? Their entire history contradicts her first appearance depiction.

Lol. That barrier was put up by Dormammu, linked to his own power. He didn't drain anything. The more Dormammu exerted his own power the weaker the barrier got. That's why he was taken by surprise when the Mindless Ones broke through. Would you like to point to where it says that Dormammu was drawing power from the barrier the way it outright states it in Umar's showing? Umar intentionally took power from a barrier Dormammu and Strange assisted in putting up.

Are you referring to their first fight and calling that a stalemate? If that's the one you're talking about, then that's hardly a stalemate.

I'll compare it to Umar's showing when you answer my question. And why are you using Strange as a gauge when Dormammu has imprisoned Umar, beaten her in battle, and shackled a being that she ran from? Some logic you got there.

Lol, you keep saying that. But Dormammu has actually taken on Eternity and wreck both of them in the fight. Zom is all hype while Dormammu has feats to back him up.

LOL nice job using an UNREFERENCED entry in an ONLINE HANDBOOK to get that alias for Chthon. Too bad that wasn't what I was asking of you. I wanted you to find me an occasion of anyone calling him "Great" as a title, in the same way Dormammu is called "Dread" or Satannish is called "Supreme".

Hoggoth being connected to the Old Ones, from the Marvel Tarot :

Irregardless how it happened, Dormammu exerting himself fighting an artifactless Strange caused the barrier to weaken, Umar wasn't pressed against Clea at all and was drawing on the barrier's power because she didn't care what the Mindless Ones did once they were freed.

And Dormammu didn't kill Eternity in their first showing, it was the other way around. If he had killed Eternity, 616 reality would have bit the dust, yet nothing happened to it. However, Dormammu was dead because the barrier holding the Mindless Ones collapsed and they were rampaging till Umar showed up and bound them again.

Umar at the time of her initial appearance was equal to or greater than Dormammu, I don't care what happened 5 or 10 or 20 years later. An artifactless Strange exhausted Dormammu and Dormammu needed Strange's help in binding up the Mindless Ones. Strange and the Ancient One with the Eye, the Cloak and the Book of the Vishanti were powerless before Umar. AO even started banishing Clea and Strange to keep them safe from her wrath. They never needed to release another creature to deal with Dormammu like they had to do with Umar.

Originally posted by zopzop
LOL nice job using an UNREFERENCED entry in an ONLINE HANDBOOK to get that [b]alias for Chthon. Too bad that wasn't what I was asking of you. I wanted you to find me an occasion of anyone calling him "Great" as a title, in the same way Dormammu is called "Dread" or Satannish is called "Supreme".

Hoggoth being connected to the Old Ones, from the Marvel Tarot :

Irregardless how it happened, Dormammu exerting himself fighting an artifactless Strange caused the barrier to weaken, Umar wasn't pressed against Clea at all and was drawing on the barrier's power because she didn't care what the Mindless Ones did once they were freed.

And Dormammu didn't kill Eternity in their first showing, it was the other way around. If he had killed Eternity, 616 reality would have bit the dust, yet nothing happened to it. However, Dormammu was dead because the barrier holding the Mindless Ones collapsed and they were rampaging till Umar showed up and bound them again.

Umar at the time of her initial appearance was equal to or greater than Dormammu, I don't care what happened 5 or 10 or 20 years later. An artifactless Strange exhausted Dormammu and Dormammu needed Strange's help in binding up the Mindless Ones. Strange and the Ancient One with the Eye, the Cloak and the Book of the Vishanti were powerless before Umar. AO even started banishing Clea and Strange to keep them safe from her wrath. They never needed to release another creature to deal with Dormammu like they had to do with Umar. [/B]

haha u keep saying the same things over and over....u have no proof besides words that makes umar "greater or equal to dormammu"...and you dont even argue to show zom is the superior of all of them...so far zom has been shackled by dormammu( who is equal to umar in ur words) so he is below both of them....and zom was also a henchman of CK along side abomination in chaos wars...crazy showing for him there too

Originally posted by bbrem123
haha u keep saying the same things over and over....u have no proof besides words that makes umar "greater or equal to dormammu"...and you dont even argue to show zom is the superior of all of them...so far zom has been shackled by dormammu( who is equal to umar in ur words) so he is below both of them....and zom was also a henchman of CK along side abomination in chaos wars...crazy showing for him there too

You realize ever since the Living Tribunal annihilated Zom, all his subsequent showings are as a Zomling, a sliver of Zom's true power.

Originally posted by zopzop
LOL nice job using an UNREFERENCED entry in an ONLINE HANDBOOK to get that [b]alias for Chthon. Too bad that wasn't what I was asking of you. I wanted you to find me an occasion of anyone calling him "Great" as a title, in the same way Dormammu is called "Dread" or Satannish is called "Supreme".[/b]

How's this unreferenced when it's specifically referenced as Sorceror Supreme 90? So now you're whining because it doesn't specifically refer to him as Great Chthon but Great Shadow? You're just being picky now that I gave you evidence.

And like I've said, Dormammu has performed higher feats then Chthon. It's like arguing Cyttorak is higher than Dormammu because Dormammu uses the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak. Keep trying though because Chthon has one dimension that he's constantly stuck in while Dormammu has hundreds of dimensions under his control and has actually beaten Zom, Umar, and Strange. What does Chthon have again? Demons of Denak.

Hoggoth being connected to the Old Ones, from the Marvel Tarot :

Thanks for this part. Lol, and yet Hoggoth and his Vishanti allies were weary of SG. The majority of the Old Ones are below Shuma Gorath, merely his lackeys.

Irregardless how it happened, Dormammu exerting himself fighting an artifactless Strange caused the barrier to weaken, Umar wasn't pressed against Clea at all and was drawing on the barrier's power because she didn't care what the Mindless Ones did once they were freed.

Lmao. It's his power connected to himself. He never had an amp. It was NEVER HER power. She tapped into his power to an amp. Um no, Strange had artifacts - just not his current ones. And even Strange knew Dormammu was TOYING with him. Strange had courage and that was it. It states outright that Dormammu was far superior and playing with Strange.

And Dormammu didn't kill Eternity in their first showing, it was the other way around. If he had killed Eternity, 616 reality would have bit the dust, yet nothing happened to it. However, Dormammu was dead because the barrier holding the Mindless Ones collapsed and they were rampaging till Umar showed up and bound them again.

WTF? Dormammu was dead because the barrier was down? I never said Eternity was killed. But Dormammu wrecked himself and Eternity in a confrontation that dispersed them both. The damage was great enough that planets spilled out of Eternity's abstract form and nearly Strange. Dormammu has feats above b!tches like Set, Zom, Chthon, and Umar.

Umar at the time of her initial appearance was equal to or greater than Dormammu, I don't care what happened 5 or 10 or 20 years later. An artifactless Strange exhausted Dormammu and Dormammu needed Strange's help in binding up the Mindless Ones. Strange and the Ancient One with the Eye, the Cloak and the Book of the Vishanti were powerless before Umar. AO even started banishing Clea and Strange to keep them safe from her wrath. They never needed to release another creature to deal with Dormammu like they had to do with Umar.

Lol, I said issues later not years later. Pay attention. When Umar found out Dormammu was alive she came and ate out of Dormammu's hand. This was only issues after that Zom incident. Guest what? Umar needed to release Strange from Dormammu's spell so that Strange would beat Dormammu because she could not. And he only won due to Dormammu's promise never to invade Earth realm.

Lol at you trying to argue it's 5 years later when it's not. Umar couldn't beat Dormammu and needed Strange. 20 years later Umar and Dormammu fought and he kicked her ass. All you have is indirect comparisons. Direct confrontations Dormammu owns Umar HARD. Deal with it.

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize ever since the Living Tribunal annihilated Zom, all his subsequent showings are as a Zomling, a sliver of Zom's true power.

You realize Dormammu shackled that b!tch while Umar ran like a dog from it right? I thought so. End of discussion.

Dormammu's powers fluctuate with his number of worshippers... its entirely possible for him to be below Umar at one point and then above her at another.

Cyttorak>Shuma Gorath>>>>ZOM

in fact i already kinda knew this based on that arc where eternity and the cosmic compass couldnt even damage juggernaut

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Cyttorak>Shuma Gorath>>>>ZOM

in fact i already kinda knew this based on that arc where eternity and the cosmic compass couldnt even damage juggernaut

Thanks for that Colossus.

But I'd like to a) see it on panel and b) it makes sense since "Zom" as we see him now is only the sliver that survived the Living Tribunal's judgment, c) how is Cytorak an abstract being, what concept does he represent?

Originally posted by zopzop
Thanks for that Colossus.

But I'd like to a) see it on panel and b) it makes sense since "Zom" as we see him now is only the sliver that survived the Living Tribunal's judgment, c) how is Cytorak an abstract being, what concept does he represent?

he said "abstract mystic beings" so maybe he means abstract level magical beings

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he said "abstract mystic beings" so maybe he means abstract level magical beings

By his reasoning then Watoomb is an abstract mystic being since he was going toe to toe with Cytorak himself in an issue of Dr. Strange. Interestingly enough, all the fighting stopped once the Vishanti showed up and put their foot down.

I thought he meant Cytorrak was a Abstract lvl within the realm of mystical beings, and doesnt he represent the "concept " of destruction.

Originally posted by Nihilist
I thought he meant Cytorrak was a Abstract lvl within the realm of mystical beings, and doesnt he represent the "concept " of destruction.

If true, then Watoomb is abstract level because he fought Cytorak to a standstill. It also means the Vishanti are beyond abstract because once they showed up, ALL the fighting ceased.

Originally posted by zopzop
If true, then Watoomb is abstract level because he fought Cytorak to a standstill. It also means the Vishanti are beyond abstract because once they showed up, ALL the fighting ceased.

Originally posted by zopzop
If true, then Watoomb is abstract level because he fought Cytorak to a standstill. It also means the Vishanti are beyond abstract because once they showed up, ALL the fighting ceased.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
any scans of this?

Here you go Colossus -

Cytorak and Watoomb going toe to toe, other fights in the background :

The Vishanti shows up :

and the BS stops! :

Look at the burst of power when the Vishanti leave in anger, it DWARFS the combined powers situated on the opposite side :

the vishanti have been established as the most powerful magical entity in the universe. in the slorith arc iirc

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the vishanti have been established as the most powerful magical entity in the universe. in the slorith arc iirc

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the vishanti have been established as the most powerful magical entity in the universe. in the slorith arc iirc

I don't think so Big C. I thought they were among the most powerful, not the most powerful.

They really don't have any combat feats. Only Agamotto vs Galactus and even that wasn't all that great. Mephisto vs Galactus was more impressive.

Originally posted by zopzop
Thanks for that Colossus.

But I'd like to a) see it on panel and b) it makes sense since "Zom" as we see him now is only the sliver that survived the Living Tribunal's judgment, c) how is Cytorak an abstract being, what concept does he represent?

And Tom would be an authority on this in what way? His claim is unfounded. Cyttorak has not one feat to his name, like at all.

Originally posted by CortSether
And Tom would be an authority on this in what way? His claim is unfounded. Cyttorak has not one feat to his name, like at all.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he is abstract level though