Originally posted by bbrem123
wiat what makes dormammu so much weaker here? jw....seems he has the best feats of all of them
Shuma-Gorath taunted Strange with an image of Dormammu claiming he lost his place as Strange's number 1 adversary, which Strange acknowledges that the real Dormammu would never admit his inferiority, supporting that Strange recognized Shuma was above him.
Originally posted by CortSether
The Vishanti couldn't stop Gorath yet you think Dormammu could? Besides, Strange already supported Dormammu's inferiority.
Has the Vishanti done ANYTHING worthwhile ever on panel? No right? Ok.
Strange's opinion is just that, his opinion. Let Gorath fight another demon lord then we can really gauge his power. Until then "maybes", "it is said", "suggested", and other weasel words like that not backed up on panel with feats are meaningless.
Originally posted by zopzopzopzop you trolling when you ask what was done on panel. LT stepped in for fear one of their fights would destroy a universe.
Has the Vishanti done ANYTHING worthwhile ever on panel? No right? Ok.Strange's opinion is just that, his opinion. Let Gorath fight another demon lord then we can really gauge his power. Until then "maybes", "it is said", "suggested", and other weasel words like that not backed up on panel with feats are meaningless.
Originally posted by Uriel005
zopzop you trolling when you ask what was done on panel. LT stepped in for fear one of their fights would destroy a universe.
Which fight? I KNOW you're not talking about the infamous Sliorath (spelling?) fight?
Because THEY summoned him because they feared the fight would destroy the Earth. And what does the LT do when he shows up? He BFR's Sliorath! Why the he!! couldn't the "mighty" Vishanti BFR an opponent? Pathetic.
Originally posted by zopzop
Again, a wall of text with nothing really behind it WWK.
In other words you're just going to avoid my points about Sise-Neg huh? Where's that nonsense argument about Strange merging with demonic beings now?
Gorath's "awesome" showings vs ape men, stone age shamans, a geriatric, with his minion harassing mud hut dwellers, are pathetic.
Lol at this b.s. that you act like some laser gun is more powerful than two mages, one who's a disciple of Set itself. So now you're arguing that a servant of Set invoking his powers is weaker than a gun.
At least Set, Zom, Chthon haven't' stooped that low yet.
Chthon picks on women. Set is a horny toad with the need for seven brides. The Elder Gods really like picking on women. It's easy to pick on women but against a wife beater like Pym well you know the score.
Set has gone up against a Cosmic Cube backed by the power of Strange's artifacts and Classic Demogorge himself.
Set struggled against Thoth. And getting pwned by the Cosmic Cube doesn't mean you're at it's level of power. He and Chthon also go whooped by Demorgore. Set isn't on any of these beings level.
The Watchers, fearing his true ascension, set up guardians (Archons) to keep his Serpent Crowns out of his worshipers hands (Secret Avengers 1-4).
And the Watchers feared Onslaught. The Watcher also showed up to Civil War as if it's will have an impact on the entire galaxy much less the universe. The Watcher shows up for ridiculous events. How is Set an impact when Atum was still alive? At that point, the Molecule Man was still on Earth as well. You make it sound as if the Watcher is proof that Set is above Shuma Gorath.
A shackled Zom forced Umar with the Flames of Regency to flee. Zom was dangerous enough that Dormammu and Eternity themselves got involved (one shackling him under unknown circumstancdes, the other banishing and imprisoning him). Ultimately it took the LT to put him down. Even shackled, Strange with AO's power couldn't banish/drain/beat him.
Umar is not Dormammu, who's owned both Umar and Mordo at the same time. Dormammu has harmed Eternity on panel and stalemated Odin. What has either Umar or Zom done that would suggest they're on his level? You can claim it's unknown circumstances, but that only means one Dormammu beat him through prep or Dormammu outright beat him in battle and chained him. Both are valid. However, Dormammu has more than enough feats to believe that he himself could've beat Zom in a straight fight. Zom in action has one appearance of him nearly beating an inexperienced Strange with amp.
All Chthon's low showings are results of being in mortal host bodies. Gorath don't have that excuse.
Set with mortal host (dinosaurs) managed to duke it out with Atum for years. Chthon essentially aborted himself while Strange had to kill his master to stop SG from forming in a mortal host.
All this means is Chthon is a weaker being than SG and Set. Thanks for supporting my point.
All you have is braggadocio and hyperbole.
Lol. Killing two mages, one a disciple of Set invoking his power is hyperbole? Wrecking the Earth with just a voodoo doll is hyperbole? Why don't you put up better feats from Chthon and Set.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
In other words you're just going to avoid my points about Sise-Neg huh? Where's that nonsense argument about Strange merging with demonic beings now?Lol at this b.s. that you act like some laser gun is more powerful than two mages, one who's a disciple of Set itself. So now you're arguing that a servant of Set invoking his powers is weaker than a gun.
Chthon picks on women. Set is a horny toad with the need for seven brides. The Elder Gods really like picking on women. It's easy to pick on women but against a wife beater like Pym well you know the score.
Set struggled against Thoth. And getting pwned by the Cosmic Cube doesn't mean you're at it's level of power. He and Chthon also go whooped by Demorgore. Set isn't on any of these beings level.
And the Watchers feared Onslaught. The Watcher also showed up to Civil War as if it's will have an impact on the entire galaxy much less the universe. The Watcher shows up for ridiculous events. How is Set an impact when Atum was still alive? At that point, the Molecule Man was still on Earth as well. You make it sound as if the Watcher is proof that Set is above Shuma Gorath.
Umar is not Dormammu, who's owned both Umar and Mordo at the same time. Dormammu has harmed Eternity on panel and stalemated Odin. What has either Umar or Zom done that would suggest they're on his level? You can claim it's unknown circumstances, but that only means one Dormammu beat him through prep or Dormammu outright beat him in battle and chained him. Both are valid. However, Dormammu has more than enough feats to believe that he himself could've beat Zom in a straight fight. Zom in action has one appearance of him nearly beating an inexperienced Strange with amp.
Set with mortal host (dinosaurs) managed to duke it out with Atum for years. Chthon essentially aborted himself while Strange had to kill his master to stop SG from forming in a mortal host.
All this means is Chthon is a weaker being than SG and Set. Thanks for supporting my point.Lol. Killing two mages, one a disciple of Set invoking his power is hyperbole? Wrecking the Earth with just a voodoo doll is hyperbole? Why don't you put up better feats from Chthon and Set.
Whose avoiding anything? The Neg scans are HUMILIATING for Gorath. Neg didn't want to be bothered expending energy he'd been accumulating dealing with Gorath. And what was Gorath doing at the time? Bumming around Earth killing ape men! LOL
A laser is more tech than what Gorath and his minions are used to dealing with. The day Chthon and crew lower themselves to picking on geriatrics and ape men, is the day you'll have any kind of point.
Thoth is a GOD. A GOD. Not an ape man, not a some villager in the third world that doesn't even have running water in his hut, not a 500 year old man on the verge of death.
The Watcher was correct. Onslaught on his own is a joke. Onslaught with Franklin's power is a universal threat. At the very LEAST he's Celestial level without his mental blocks and at his full potential.
Umar is Dormammu power wise especially with the Flames of Regency about her head (which she had during the Zom encounter):
The best feat for Chthon and Set are NEVER being owned in their own realms by Strange. EVER. Even if I concede and say Strange "hurt" Chthon with that purity bolt, "hurting" does not equal WTFPWNING like Strange did to Gorath.
Originally posted by zopzop
Whose avoiding anything? The Neg scans are HUMILIATING for Gorath. Neg didn't want to be bothered expending energy he'd been accumulating dealing with Gorath. And what was Gorath doing at the time? Bumming around Earth killing ape men! LOL
And yet he BOTHERED to put SG to sleep rather then ATTEMPT to destroy it. He could've destroyed Strange with thought. Yet he used more than just a thought to put SG to sleep, then send him off to another dimension. It's humiliating to Strange who had to beg Sise-Neg who could've destroyed Strange with a thought but couldn't only ATTEMPT to destroy SG and that would take time and power.
A laser is more tech than what Gorath and his minions are used to dealing with. The day Chthon and crew lower themselves to picking on geriatrics and ape men, is the day you'll have any kind of point.
So now a laser gun is more power than Chthon and Set's invoked powers? lmao.
Laser gun>Chthon (on panel)
Laser gun>Shuma Gorath (based on nothing)
Shuma Gorath>Sorcerors invoking Set's powers (on panel)
Laser gun>Set (based on your logic)
Thoth is a GOD. A GOD. Not an ape man, not a some villager in the third world that doesn't even have running water in his hut, not a 500 year old man on the verge of death.
Lol, keep trying though. Thoth isn't even a skyfather. And Set picked on the primitive mammals. He even told his minions to pick on the early primates before the 1st Host came so I don't get why you're whining about Africa and Nyirh or Shuma Gorath. Set also picks on women.
The Watcher was correct.
That Atum kicked Set's butt 3 time and would've done so again? Pretty much.
Onslaught on his own is a joke. Onslaught with Franklin's power is a universal threat. At the very LEAST he's Celestial level without his mental blocks and at his full potential.
In other words Onslaught was never really a threat. Watcher was wrong even with his so called cosmic awareness.
Umar is Dormammu power wise especially with the Flames of Regency about her head (which she had during the Zom encounter):
The Flame of Regency just means you're the current ruler of the Dark Dimension. Dormammu beat her down already. Like I said, Dormammu has better feats than Zom or Umar.
The best feat for Chthon and Set are NEVER being owned in their own realms by Strange. EVER. Even if I concede and say Strange "hurt" Chthon with that purity bolt, "hurting" does not equal WTFPWNING like Strange did to Gorath.
But you'll ignore Strange taking all of Victoria's power, gaining some of Nyirh darkness, taking up black magic, and merging with a plot device being to even beat Shuma Gorath. You just act like Strange popped up in Shuma Gorath's realm and beat him with no amp at all. News flash, Strange was not over whelmed in Set's realm just by being there and he did one-shot harm Chthon who blast Strange out in a fit of anger. Non-prep regular Strange would be lying dead like Kaluu was in Shuma Gorath's realm without there even being a fight.
Chthon was wtfpwn by a damn laser gun that you keep trying to argue is more powerful than eldritch blast from Dr Strange. Maybe you should right for Marvel, that why all the demon hunters and Sorceror Supremes will be carrying around laser guns and Ant-Man helmets. Stop embarrassing yourself by trying to argue that laser guns would harm Shuma Gorath just because a pathetic being like Chthon was owned.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And yet he BOTHERED to put SG to sleep rather then ATTEMPT to destroy it. He could've destroyed Strange with thought. Yet he used more than just a thought to put SG to sleep, then send him off to another dimension. It's humiliating to Strange who had to beg Sise-Neg who could've destroyed Strange with a thought but couldn't only ATTEMPT to destroy SG and that would take time and power.So now a laser gun is more power than Chthon and Set's invoked powers? lmao.
Laser gun>Chthon (on panel)
Laser gun>Shuma Gorath (based on nothing)
Shuma Gorath>Sorcerors invoking Set's powers (on panel)
Laser gun>Set (based on your logic)Lol, keep trying though. Thoth isn't even a skyfather. And Set picked on the primitive mammals. He even told his minions to pick on the early primates before the 1st Host came so I don't get why you're whining about Africa and Nyirh or Shuma Gorath. Set also picks on women.
That Atum kicked Set's butt 3 time and would've done so again? Pretty much.
In other words Onslaught was never really a threat. Watcher was wrong even with his so called cosmic awareness.
The Flame of Regency just means you're the current ruler of the Dark Dimension. Dormammu beat her down already. Like I said, Dormammu has better feats than Zom or Umar.
But you'll ignore Strange taking all of Victoria's power, gaining some of Nyirh darkness, taking up black magic, and merging with a plot device being to even beat Shuma Gorath. You just act like Strange popped up in Shuma Gorath's realm and beat him with no amp at all. News flash, Strange was not over whelmed in Set's realm just by being there and he did one-shot harm Chthon who blast Strange out in a fit of anger. Non-prep regular Strange would be lying dead like Kaluu was in Shuma Gorath's realm without there even being a fight.
Chthon was wtfpwn by a damn laser gun that you keep trying to argue is more powerful than eldritch blast from Dr Strange. Maybe you should right for Marvel, that why all the demon hunters and Sorceror Supremes will be carrying around laser guns and Ant-Man helmets. Stop embarrassing yourself by trying to argue that laser guns would harm Shuma Gorath just because a pathetic being like Chthon was owned.
He bothered to put Gorath to sleep because he pitied the ape men (they were the ancestors of humanity and Strange played on Neg's sympathy since he was once human). It used the least amount of power out of all his options, power that he didn't want to waste on petty battles that were of no consequence to him.
When Gorath OR his minions make war on creatures that have the technology to even build a damn gun (forget about a laser, just a gun), get back to me.
Irregardless if Thoth isn't a skyfather, he's still a GOD. Losing to Classic Demogorge after a million year stalemate is nothing to be ashamed of. Even his third loss to Thor/Demogorge was him battling the God Eater while holding another Elder God, Gaea, imprisoned (a feat Thor thought impossible).
Set's Serpent Men aren't gods, so having them pick on other non gods means nothing.
The Flames of Regency do more than just designate who the ruler of the Dark Dimension is, they actually grant a power boost and a noticeable one at that! :
A shackled Zom caused Umar at the height of her power to flee for her existence. In my previous post, Thor remembered Dr. Strange warning him of Umar. Saying she was Dormammu's sister and just as powerful as her brother.
Originally posted by zopzop
He bothered to put Gorath to sleep because he pitied the ape men (they were the ancestors of humanity and Strange played on Neg's sympathy since he was once human). It used the least amount of power out of all his options, power that he didn't want to waste on petty battles that were of no consequence to him.
None of this explains away him needing to waste time just to attempt destroying SG when he said and Strange admitted Sise-Neg could destroy Strange in a thought. It takes him longer to put SG to sleep and send him into another dimension then destroying it with a thought. Sise-Neg>>>SG>>>>>Strange
When Gorath OR his minions make war on creatures that have the technology to even build a damn gun (forget about a laser, just a gun), get back to me.
Lol yeah, he picked on Ancient One and Dr. Strange y'know? These guys lived in modern times or have you forgotten? The guy that was killed by Strange was locked outside his car. Guns came before cars genius.
Irregardless if Thoth isn't a skyfather, he's still a GOD. Losing to Classic Demogorge after a million year stalemate is nothing to be ashamed of. Even his third loss to Thor/Demogorge was him battling the God Eater while holding another Elder God, Gaea, imprisoned (a feat Thor thought impossible).
It took him years to fight Atum and still he lost and the result was the death of the dinosaurs. There combined might paled to Shuma Gorath wrecking havoc to Earth and about to destroy it using just a voodoo doll from a thousand planes away. SG alone created havoc on Earth that required Chthon to manifest there to match. Neither Elder Gods could wreck Earth from just their dimension.
Set's Serpent Men aren't gods, so having them pick on other non gods means nothing.
And who are they taking orders from again? And you're going to ignore SG picking on the Ancient One? Set also picks on women too but you're gonna act like that never happened.
The Flames of Regency do more than just designate who the ruler of the Dark Dimension is, they actually grant a power boost and a noticeable one at that! :
Why don't you put up the rest of the scans regarding that fight. Clea more then enough held her own against Umar with the Flames of Regency. They fight for some time before the mass starts to doubt her. When Umar revealed that she would tap into the Great Barrier to defeat Clea, that was when the masses saw Umar for the tyrant she is. The power granted by the Flames of Regency wasn't enough for Umar to defeat Clea that's why she needed to tap into the Great Barrier for more power. Umar with the Flames of Regency isn't that powerful. She is weaker than Dormammu due to the siblings fight with the Mindless Ones during their first encounter. This is pointed out in the Tales of the Dark Dimensions.
Let's not kid ourselves here because Dormammu beat Clea while she had the Flames of Regency. He defeated Umar as well. You're trying to make it sound as if Zom chased off Umar is some big deal. News flash, if the Flames gave Umar a boost then it would give Dormammu a boost as well because Zom's defeat was during Dormammu's reign before either met Strange. Heck, most of the time Dormammu is the ruler of the Dark Dimension. He's the one that created that very mantle/power when he took Olnar's place.
A [b]shackled Zom caused Umar at the height of her power to flee for her existence. In my previous post, Thor remembered Dr. Strange warning him of Umar. Saying she was Dormammu's sister and just as powerful as her brother. [/B]
Lol, that's funny because she got owned when they fought the Mindless Ones and took secondary role to her brother in Tales of the Dark Dimensions. He's also the one who created the Flames of Recency, not her. They've fought before and he's owned her. The time she beats him is through trickery, not because of power. Why do you think she was imprisoned for so long and only released when Dormammu disappeared in his fight with Eternity? Zom was chained by Dormammu, not Umar.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
None of this explains away him needing to waste time just to attempt destroying SG when he said and Strange admitted Sise-Neg could destroy Strange in a thought. It takes him longer to put SG to sleep and send him into another dimension then destroying it with a thought. Sise-Neg>>>SG>>>>>StrangeLol yeah, he picked on Ancient One and Dr. Strange y'know? These guys lived in modern times or have you forgotten? The guy that was killed by Strange was locked outside his car. Guns came before cars genius.
It took him years to fight Atum and still he lost and the result was the death of the dinosaurs. There combined might paled to Shuma Gorath wrecking havoc to Earth and about to destroy it using just a voodoo doll from a thousand planes away. SG alone created havoc on Earth that required Chthon to manifest there to match. Neither Elder Gods could wreck Earth from just their dimension.
And who are they taking orders from again? And you're going to ignore SG picking on the Ancient One? Set also picks on women too but you're gonna act like that never happened.
Why don't you put up the rest of the scans regarding that fight. Clea more then enough held her own against Umar with the Flames of Regency. They fight for some time before the mass starts to doubt her. When Umar revealed that she would tap into the Great Barrier to defeat Clea, that was when the masses saw Umar for the tyrant she is. The power granted by the Flames of Regency wasn't enough for Umar to defeat Clea that's why she needed to tap into the Great Barrier for more power. Umar with the Flames of Regency isn't that powerful. She is weaker than Dormammu due to the siblings fight with the Mindless Ones during their first encounter. This is pointed out in the Tales of the Dark Dimensions.
Let's not kid ourselves here because Dormammu beat Clea while she had the Flames of Regency. He defeated Umar as well. You're trying to make it sound as if Zom chased off Umar is some big deal. News flash, if the Flames gave Umar a boost then it would give Dormammu a boost as well because Zom's defeat was during Dormammu's reign before either met Strange. Heck, most of the time Dormammu is the ruler of the Dark Dimension. He's the one that created that very mantle/power when he took Olnar's place.
Lol, that's funny because she got owned when they fought the Mindless Ones and took secondary role to her brother in Tales of the Dark Dimensions. He's also the one who created the Flames of Recency, not her. They've fought before and he's owned her. The time she beats him is through trickery, not because of power. Why do you think she was imprisoned for so long and only released when Dormammu disappeared in his fight with Eternity? Zom was chained by Dormammu, not Umar.
This is funny, especially the part in italics. Arioch/Strange was supposedly so powerful, that if he entered 616 reality, his mere aura would bust galaxies. Gorath is so powreful that when he engages in combat, even in his native realm, Earth feels it. Then how do you explain Gorath making actual PHYSICAL appearances on Earth, not once but three times and a) no galaxies were busted because of his aura (if Arioch/Strange could do it, why not Gorath), b) the planet wasn't destroyed as a result of his fights, and c) he got his ass handed to him (again).
Those brides at least had super powers and running water in their domiciles. That's more than you can say for the majority of Gorath's foes.
Regarding Umar and the Flames. They are obviously a powerup as the scans say, because as soon as she lost them, she got owned by Clea.
Even more importantly, here is Umar's first appearance at the time of Zom :
With Dormammu dead, there's nothing to stop the mindless ones from rampaging, since it was only his power that kept up the barrier that held them back. Umar shows up, the Flames of Regency come upon her and she..........holds them back.
These are in order, leading up to her showdown with Zom. Strange, Umar, and the Ancient One all mention her as a power "equal to or even exceeding" that of Dormammu. Strange referring to her as his deadliest foe yet/ever :
Continued below because of image limits per post
Originally posted by zopzop
This is funny, especially the part in italics. Arioch/Strange was supposedly so powerful, that if he entered 616 reality, his mere aura would bust galaxies. Gorath is so powreful that when he engages in combat, even in his native realm, Earth feels it. Then how do you explain Gorath making actual PHYSICAL appearances on Earth, not once but three times and a) no galaxies were busted because of his aura (if Arioch/Strange could do it, why not Gorath), b) the planet wasn't destroyed as a result of his fights, and c) he got his ass handed to him (again).
The difference between SG and Strange is control. SG is a dimensional conqueror, not destroyer. How else do you explain him having hundreds of dimensions under his rule if they're destroyed by him? He'd refer to those dimensions as destroyed, not ruled over. How else do you explain Kaluu saying that Strange killed SG when even Agamotto could not? Agamotto's very fight with Galactus was wrecking the dimensions around, including Hoggoth and Oshtur's. If Agamotto can muster up enough power to caused that in his fight, why would their by any doubt SG would wreck the galaxies in lower dimensions if he wanted too? At a thousand planes away, it was wrecking havoc to Earth using just an image, what do you think it would do if it was in the 616 an exerted it's power? Your Elder Gods have no feat comparable at all.
Those brides at least had super powers and running water in their domiciles. That's more than you can say for the majority of Gorath's foes.
So you want to compare powers? I'll put up the Ancient One against all of them and see what happens. Dr. Strange without any power-up could only close a gate recently and he nearly died trying. The first time he laid eyes on SG, a direct confrontation got him a whooping so he ran from SG and had to destroy his masters ego to stop SG. So heck, put regular Strange against all seven brides and let's see what happens. Lol at yet another pathetic attempt at arguing this point.
Regarding Umar and the Flames. They are obviously a powerup as the scans say, because as soon as she lost them, she got owned by Clea.
Lol, couldn't even beat Clea and needed to tap into the Great Barrier. She's not Dormammu.
Even more importantly, here is Umar's first appearance at the time of Zom :
With Dormammu dead, there's nothing to stop the mindless ones from rampaging, since it was only his power that kept up the barrier that held them back. Umar shows up, the Flames of Regency come upon her and she..........holds them back.
These are in order, leading up to her showdown with Zom. Strange, Umar, and the Ancient One all mention her as a power "equal to or even exceeding" that of Dormammu. Strange referring to her as his deadliest foe yet/ever :
Continued below because of image limits per post
lmao. Deadliest foe ever? Strange says that and when Dormammu shows up some books later and Umar was eating out of his hand. Let's not kid yourself, Dormammu has feats like summoning Eternity and doubling k.o.ing against him. He pwned Umar to the point that Umar needed to free Strange in hopes that he would defeat Dormammu (which he did using Dormammu's own mystical promise). Dormammu took back the Flames of Regency from Clea. Beat Umar again in another fight. Actual appearances wise Dormammu is greater than Umar. You can argue till your head is blue but Dormammu shackled Zom, not Umar.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The difference between SG and Strange is control. SG is a dimensional conqueror, not destroyer. How else do you explain him having hundreds of dimensions under his rule if they're destroyed by him? He'd refer to those dimensions as destroyed, not ruled over. How else do you explain Kaluu saying that Strange killed SG when even Agamotto could not? Agamotto's very fight with Galactus was wrecking the dimensions around, including Hoggoth and Oshtur's. If Agamotto can muster up enough power to caused that in his fight, why would their by any doubt SG would wreck the galaxies in lower dimensions if he wanted too? At a thousand planes away, it was wrecking havoc to Earth using just an image, what do you think it would do if it was in the 616 an exerted it's power? Your Elder Gods have no feat comparable at all.So you want to compare powers? I'll put up the Ancient One against all of them and see what happens. Dr. Strange without any power-up could only close a gate recently and he nearly died trying. The first time he laid eyes on SG, a direct confrontation got him a whooping so he ran from SG and had to destroy his masters ego to stop SG. So heck, put regular Strange against all seven brides and let's see what happens. Lol at yet another pathetic attempt at arguing this point.
Lol, couldn't even beat Clea and needed to tap into the Great Barrier. She's not Dormammu.
lmao. Deadliest foe ever? Strange says that and when Dormammu shows up some books later and Umar was eating out of his hand. Let's not kid yourself, Dormammu has feats like summoning Eternity and doubling k.o.ing against him. He pwned Umar to the point that Umar needed to free Strange in hopes that he would defeat Dormammu (which he did using Dormammu's own mystical promise). Dormammu took back the Flames of Regency from Clea. Beat Umar again in another fight. Actual appearances wise Dormammu is greater than Umar. You can argue till your head is blue but Dormammu shackled Zom, not Umar.
Not a destroyer? No, of course not 😖hifty:
Fact is, in both his recent appearances he manifested in full on Earth (not an avatar, not a possessed host body like Chthon, but the FULL GORATH) and nothing was destroyed because of his "aura" or power output. Even in the Neg flashback when he was in prehistoric times, wielding his "awesome" power vs ape men, nothing planet busting happened.
Regarding Umar, you are using fights that happened 20+ years after the fact to use it against her initial appearance. I even provided you scans from 5 issues leading up to her confrontation with Zom. Both Strange and the AO said her powered AT LEAST equaled Dormammu's. Clea stated that with Dormammu gone, there is no power to hold the Mindless Ones back, yet Umar shows up, gets the Flames and drives them back.
please stop comparing dormammu and umar...domammu rapes her all day
why would planet busting events happen with SG during that time?...he wanted to rule earth not destroy it...the scan you show proves this point
dormammu has one encounter with zom and it ends with zom being shackled...making dormammu superior in that encounter...there is not other evidence proving against that...the umar argument is worthless cuz we have seen what happens between umar and dormammu...and dormammu is above her plan as day
Originally posted by bbrem123
please stop comparing dormammu and umar...domammu rapes her all day
I'm comparing her to Dormammu at the time of her first appearance in comics in respect to her showing vs Zom. That's totally valid.
why would planet busting events happen with SG during that time?...he wanted to rule earth not destroy it...the scan you show proves this point
Reading comprehension is your friend. He calls himself a destroyer and goes on to say he doesn't want to conquer the Earth, he wants to consume it.
dormammu has one encounter with zom and it ends with zom being shackled...making dormammu superior in that encounter...there is not other evidence proving against that...the umar argument is worthless cuz we have seen what happens between umar and dormammu...and dormammu is above her plan as day
Dormammu, through circumstances unknown, shackled Zom. Dormammu never imprisoned him or banished him, that was all Eternity.
What happened 20-30 years after Umar was first introduced to comics is meaningless in this discussion. AT THE TIME OF HER FIRST APPEARANCE, it was said by both Strange and the Ancient One that she was at least Dormammu's peer, at least. Ancient One even said that she's has Dormammu's power and it grows still.
I'm not sure, actually...the Vishanti has fought Shuma-Gorath and Chthon before...and their enemy, Dormammu, has fought Zom...and I think Chthon is stronger and older than Dormammu...
I think it would depend on, like, where they fought, and if they had followers/artifacts, and other complex factors. Generally, however, I think it would be a tie.
Originally posted by Falamu
I'm not sure, actually...the Vishanti has fought Shuma-Gorath and Chthon before...and their enemy, Dormammu, has fought Zom...and I think Chthon is stronger and older than Dormammu...
It's hard to say who is stronger or even older. The ONLY times I'm aware of that Dormammu referenced Chthon are a) in a Strange issue and b) in What If - Time Quake (Wolverine was Lord of Vampires during Inferno) it should be noted this Time Quake arc affected ALL reality and even 616 reality so I guess we are allowed to use examples from it as legit sources.
Here is the scan from the Dr. Strange issue regarding Dormammu and Chthon, Dormammu has an artifact of Chthon's and refers to Chthon as "Great" :
The other was from the Time Quake arc and had Dormammu going on about the Darkhold and it's power.
On the subject of the Vishanti : Oshtur herself is now an Elder God representing the element Air and she is Agamotto's mother through virgin birth. Hoggoth is a member of Gorath's race.
I think it would depend on, like, where they fought, and if they had followers/artifacts, and other complex factors. Generally, however, I think it would be a tie.
They go up an down in power depending on writers, here is Strange saying Satannish made him feel more helpless than Dorammmu even at the height of Dormammu's power :
But then it was later revealed that Dormammu created Satannish. It's just one big mess.
