Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympusyeah he makes me question whether or not abstract is below skyfather. Hell several reality warpers make him their *****.
I think he did well against Eternity at one point. Course, so did the Ancient One IIRC.Dude's a joke for the embodiment of the Universe to be honest.
Anyway, LOL at everyone saying Eternity couldn't put down Zom. It's never ever said that they even battled. We also know that Zom was put in Chains of Living Bondage by Dormammu even before Eternity intervened. Why did he not just destroy Zom instead of sealing him in a vase? Perhaps just for lulz, but it certainly wasn't about Zom being "too powerful". We all know LT is loads more powerful than Zom yet he decided to banish him rather than just destroy him.
Also, smdh at the people saying Strange beat Shuma within his own realm. It wasn't Strange, it's even said in the battle that Strange is no more. It was Strange/Arioch with additional power of sorceror supreme and cytorrak's artifacts, and even then he wasn't able to harm shuma until he started turning into Shuma-Gorath itself. It was Shuma's power defeating Shuma's power, and even then Shuma has that nice ability to turn whatever defeats it into itself. It was also enough to destroy galaxies just by being present.
Then there's also the fact that when Sise-Neg was near the end of his journey he realized Shuma-Gorath absorbs magical energy and wasn't sure if he could destroy him (he says he doesn't want to attempt to destroy Shuma, meaning he wasn't sure if he could. And at that point he had so much energy from the Marvel Universe that Strange couldn't even use any.
Then you have the fact that Shuma-Gorath and the rest of the Many-Angled Ones were alluded to being more powerful than the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine which was pwning Celestials and killing abstracts.
So based on feats and even Strange himself: Shuma > Zom.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Classic Zom. Dr. Strange referred to him as the most powerful foe he ever fought.
Before encountering Shuma, and then Strange said he had never felt such a power when confronted by Shuma-Gorath.
This thread still going on?
On panel evidence > braggadocio, implied power or hyperbole.
On panel Zom and Gorath have very very little to go by. The only thing is, Strange has never beaten Zom, not once. Strange has repeatedly beaten Gorath both in and out of his realm where he's supposedly omnipotent.
All Zom and Gorath have is hype.
On panel Set and Chthon have the better showings.
Set stalemated Demogorge for millions of years before Demogorge got the upper hand and won, this was after he punked Gaea and she called her son for aid. They fought again this time, Set kept Gaea imprisoned unable to call out for aid or free herself, while battling Demogorge/Thor/Strange/Quasar/Thing. Strange banished Set ONCE by tapping into the power of a Cosmic Cube and backed by the willpower of Scarlet Witch/Spiderman/Thing. Strange was never a match for Set either in or out of his realm.
Chthon's feats include making entire rivers turn to blood, making the FF become video waves on TV, trapping Asgard and a US state into some dimension where they had no contact with the outside world, warping reality on a planetary scale, and being the father of the greatest book of black magic in creation. Eternity himself thanked Pym for saving him from the threat of Chthon.
Originally posted by zopzop
This thread still going on?On panel evidence > braggadocio, implied power or hyperbole.
On panel Zom and Gorath have very very little to go by. The only thing is, Strange has never beaten Zom, not once. Strange has repeatedly beaten Gorath both in and out of his realm where he's supposedly omnipotent.
Did you ever stop to consider the difference in the state of power Strange was in when in his situations with Zom and Gorath? Strange had already started to turn into Shuma-Gorath before he was able to even harm him. And on-panel Strange was about to be turned into Shuma-Gorath entirely which is why he impaled himself, so that neat trick Gorath has where whatever defeats him becomes him has the others beat. The only other time Strange defeated Shuma was in Shuma's low showing where he appeared already severely weakened when Nicholas Scratch summons him, and even then Strange almost died just leading the battle to Stonehenge so he could use its power to banish him.
Then there's also Thanos telling Mistress Death that the Many-Angled Ones (Kthl, Shuma-Gorath, Yot-Soter, Nyerlathortech) cannot die.
You're honestly saying Chthon or Set would be greater than Shuma and Zom?
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@CortSether
We've been over this so many times in multiple threads so we both know each other's position on these characters.
Strange owned Gorath's "nearly omnipotent" lieutenant with ease, the fight only lasted like 4 panels or something. He then goes on to eradicate Gorath in the most idiotic way possible (hurling a flaming earth simulacrum at him). Strange has repeatedly defeated Gorath everytime they fought.
Colossus Big-C and I have pointed out Strange NEVER beat Set or Chthon in or out of their realms. Ever.
Strange repelled Chthon with a bolt of holiness or something and then ran with his tail between his legs out of Chthon's realm before he went mad.
The only time Strange ever had a chance against Set was backed by the power of a cosmic cube and shored up with the willpower of 3 other heroes. No "bolt of holiness", no "absorbing his power", no flaming simulacrums, no nothing to be used against Set. If it wasn't for the power of the cosmic cube or Thor getting Demogorge involved, Strange couldn't do anything to Set.
Originally posted by zopzop
@CortSetherWe've been over this so many times in multiple threads so we both know each other's position on these characters.
Strange owned Gorath's "nearly omnipotent" lieutenant with ease, the fight only lasted like 4 panels or something. He then goes on to eradicate Gorath in the most idiotic way possible (hurling a flaming earth simulacrum at him). Strange has repeatedly defeated Gorath everytime they fought.
Strange beat SG after learning dark magic and absorbing the powers of his lieutenants to reach a power level which his mentor Kaluu. The Strange that fought Zom was younger and less experienced then the one that beat SG's first agent, Water Element. Yet he still held his own against Zom. The true Zom had one fight with Strange and nothing about it was impressive enough to say it's a match for SG.
Colossus Big-C and I have pointed out Strange NEVER beat Set or Chthon in or out of their realms. Ever.
Didn't Viper defeat Chthon with a laser gun? lol. We're using low showings too right?
Strange repelled Chthon with a bolt of holiness or something and then ran with his tail between his legs out of Chthon's realm before he went mad.
And how much magic did Strange bring with him because he was absorbing mass amounts of it before reaching SG's realm, a place where even his master Kaluu couldn't journey due to that planes effect on his body.
The only time Strange ever had a chance against Set was backed by the power of a cosmic cube and shored up with the willpower of 3 other heroes. No "bolt of holiness", no "absorbing his power", no flaming simulacrums, no nothing to be used against Set. If it wasn't for the power of the cosmic cube or Thor getting Demogorge involved, Strange couldn't do anything to Set.
Strange couldn't stop Sise-Neg from absorbing all the magic around him nor could he stop SG from consuming the primates. He essentially had to beg Sise-Neg to save them to which Sise-Neg chose to put SG to sleep rather than battle him because he was afraid SG would absorb the magic he'd amassed. The Strange that fought SG in his realm would whoop Set, Chthon, or Zom.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Strange beat SG after learning dark magic and absorbing the powers of his lieutenants to reach a power level which his mentor Kaluu. The Strange that fought Zom was younger and less experienced then the one that beat SG's first agent, Water Element. Yet he still held his own against Zom. The true Zom had one fight with Strange and nothing about it was impressive enough to say it's a match for SG.Didn't Viper defeat Chthon with a laser gun? lol. We're using low showings too right?
And how much magic did Strange bring with him because he was absorbing mass amounts of it before reaching SG's realm, a place where even his master Kaluu couldn't journey due to that planes effect on his body.
Strange couldn't stop Sise-Neg from absorbing all the magic around him nor could he stop SG from consuming the primates. He essentially had to beg Sise-Neg to save them to which Sise-Neg chose to put SG to sleep rather than battle him because he was afraid SG would absorb the magic he'd amassed. The Strange that fought SG in his realm would whoop Set, Chthon, or Zom.
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And the fact that even with all the power Strange amassed before going there he couldn't even hurt Shuma until he was already in the process of turning in to him, which is why it makes sense that he was able to wield Shuma-Gorath's own earth replica. Speaking of which, I've never seen Zom or any of the other guys be able to nonchalantly effect the entire earth from their own realm.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Strange beat SG after learning dark magic and absorbing the powers of his lieutenants to reach a power level which his mentor Kaluu. The Strange that fought Zom was younger and less experienced then the one that beat SG's first agent, Water Element. Yet he still held his own against Zom. The true Zom had one fight with Strange and nothing about it was impressive enough to say it's a match for SG.Didn't Viper defeat Chthon with a laser gun? lol. We're using low showings too right?
And how much magic did Strange bring with him because he was absorbing mass amounts of it before reaching SG's realm, a place where even his master Kaluu couldn't journey due to that planes effect on his body.
Strange couldn't stop Sise-Neg from absorbing all the magic around him nor could he stop SG from consuming the primates. He essentially had to beg Sise-Neg to save them to which Sise-Neg chose to put SG to sleep rather than battle him because he was afraid SG would absorb the magic he'd amassed. The Strange that fought SG in his realm would whoop Set, Chthon, or Zom.
Yet Strange still beat SG's "omnipotent" leiutenant in his own realm in 4 or so panels then went on to own Gorath in his own realm. Strange has beaten him in and out his realm. Strange has NEVER lost to Gorath.
Strange has NEVER beaten Zom.
The Strange that fought SG in his realm would NEVER happen vs Set or Chthon because he's faced them before and couldn't do jack to them.
Originally posted by zopzop
Yet Strange still beat SG's "omnipotent" leiutenant in his own realm in 4 or so panels then went on to own Gorath in his own realm.
Beat? You mean when he absorbed Arioch's power because he admitted he couldn't straight up stand up to that power right? He faced Arioch after fighting up the hierarchy of power levels and amassing power. The versions of Strange that fought Chthon, Set, and Zom are not at the same power level as this one.
Strange has beaten him in and out his realm. Strange has NEVER lost to Gorath.
Strange couldn't take on SG at all during the primative Earth age at it's height of power. He begged Sise-Neg to do so. In Strange Tales, he beat SG in it's realm after amassing dark magic, including Arioch's. In SG's first appearance in Strange's book, SG was merely manifesting in the Ancient One and all Strange did was kill the Ancient One to win. That other time was at Stone Henge when SG had just emerged into Earth plane when Strange sent banished it. At SG's height of power, Strange needed upgrades to fight him
As for lost, Strange and Kaluu ran from Ghaszaszh Nyirh and sealed off the gate. They couldn't even beat an agent of SG and ran from it. So yeah that's a lost. Only after Strange had learned and accepted black magic was he acquiring enough power to defeat the Old Ones.
Strange has NEVER beaten Zom.
I like how you say that as if it mattered, ignoring how they only had one fight and Zom NEVER defeated the younger Strange either. An older Strange and Kaluu ran from an underling of SG.
The Strange that fought SG in his realm would NEVER happen vs Set or Chthon because he's faced them before and couldn't do jack to them.
So a more powerful Strange that actually defeated SG and his lieutanants would never face Set and Chthon because an infinitely inferior version of Strange lost against these Elder Gods? Lol, that's not logic; it's plain nonsense.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Beat? You mean when he absorbed Arioch's power because he admitted he couldn't straight up stand up to that power right? He faced Arioch after fighting up the hierarchy of power levels and amassing power. The versions of Strange that fought Chthon, Set, and Zom are not at the same power level as this one.Strange couldn't take on SG at all during the primative Earth age at it's height of power. He begged Sise-Neg to do so. In Strange Tales, he beat SG in it's realm after amassing dark magic, including Arioch's. In SG's first appearance in Strange's book, SG was merely manifesting in the Ancient One and all Strange did was kill the Ancient One to win. That other time was at Stone Henge when SG had just emerged into Earth plane when Strange sent banished it. At SG's height of power, Strange needed upgrades to fight him
As for lost, Strange and Kaluu ran from Ghaszaszh Nyirh and sealed off the gate. They couldn't even beat an agent of SG and ran from it. So yeah that's a lost. Only after Strange had learned and accepted black magic was he acquiring enough power to defeat the Old Ones.
I like how you say that as if it mattered, ignoring how they only had one fight and Zom NEVER defeated the younger Strange either. An older Strange and Kaluu ran from an underling of SG.
So a more powerful Strange that actually defeated SG and his lieutanants would never face Set and Chthon because an infinitely inferior version of Strange lost against these Elder Gods? Lol, that's not logic; it's plain nonsense.
The fact remains, Strange ABSORBED an "omnipotent" being's power with ease. Then went on to defeat another "omnipotent" being in his own realm.
Strange NEVER pulled that crap with either Set or Chthon. EVER. And Strange had the Ancient One's power too when he fought Zom, a manacled Zom. And still he was getting nowhere fast till the LT showed up and immolated Zom's ass.
Whatever happened with SG's recent appearance? I saw a scan on the "Ownage" thread of Vision stabbing him in his eye with a spear. A spear ..........
Originally posted by zopzop
The fact remains, Strange ABSORBED an "omnipotent" being's power with ease. Then went on to defeat another "omnipotent" being in his own realm.
And that is the fact. Strange amass power to absorbed an infinite beings power and beat SG through that. Strange need a huge power up to win. When his journey began, he ran from an underling of SG and got his eye destroyed.
Strange NEVER pulled that crap with either Set or Chthon. EVER.
And that's why the ST Strange would stomp the regular Strange. You make it sound as if Strange can just show up in SG's realm without any power ups and absorbed SG's power for a win. lol
And Strange had the Ancient One's power too when he fought Zom, a manacled Zom. And still he was getting nowhere fast till the LT showed up and immolated Zom's ass.
In other words Zom never defeated an upgraded Strange either lol. In fact, Strange was more powerful than AO's rival Kaluu and then went on to take the power of Arioch to add to his own before he could face SG at all. Like I said, the Arioch empowered Strange would stomp the AO upgraded Strange.
Whatever happened with SG's recent appearance? I saw a scan on the "Ownage" thread of Vision stabbing him in his eye with a spear. A spear ..........
Yeah mean the Spear of Destiny - plot device? It's the same Spear that opened up the dimensional barrier to allow SG to come through.
Originally posted by zopzop
The fact remains, Strange ABSORBED an "omnipotent" being's power with ease. Then went on to defeat another "omnipotent" being in his own realm.Strange NEVER pulled that crap with either Set or Chthon. EVER. And Strange had the Ancient One's power too when he fought Zom, a manacled Zom. And still he was getting nowhere fast till the LT showed up and immolated Zom's ass.
Whatever happened with SG's recent appearance? I saw a scan on the "Ownage" thread of Vision stabbing him in his eye with a spear. A spear ..........
It was the Spear of Destiny, and all it did was made the portal close up again and prevent Shuma from manifesting all the way. The Spear of Destiny is a major plot device weapon in every comic it is used in. It's even been used to harm Spectre in DC.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And that is the fact. Strange amass power to absorbed an infinite beings power and beat SG through that. Strange need a huge power up to win. When his journey began, he ran from an underling of SG and got his eye destroyed.And that's why the ST Strange would stomp the regular Strange. You make it sound as if Strange can just show up in SG's realm without any power ups and absorbed SG's power for a win. lol
In other words Zom never defeated an upgraded Strange either lol. In fact, Strange was more powerful than AO's rival Kaluu and then went on to take the power of Arioch to add to his own before he could face SG at all. Like I said, the Arioch empowered Strange would stomp the AO upgraded Strange.
Yeah mean the Spear of Destiny - plot device? It's the same Spear that opened up the dimensional barrier to allow SG to come through.
You're missing my point WWK. It's the fact that Strange so EASILY wtfpwned an 'omnipotent' lieutenant of SG's then went on to wtfpwn Gorath.
Strange had NO prayer against Chthon or Set, against a chained Zom he held his own with AO's power till the LT showed up.
PS Thank goodness it was the Spear of Destiny and not some random run of the mill weapon that hurt SG. That explains that.
Originally posted by zopzop
You're missing my point WWK. It's the fact that Strange so EASILY wtfpwned an 'omnipotent' lieutenant of SG's then went on to wtfpwn Gorath.
You're missing the point where Strange and Kaluu could only seal off an agent of SG. He couldn't beat one at the start. It was only until he began absorbing and upping his power level was he able to move up the hierarchy. Strange was upgraded when he fought Arioch and he beat him by absorbing his power, not in a straight up fight. How would he fare against Arioch or SG if he hadn't amassed more magic? He lost an eye trying to go up against one of the lower Old Ones.
Strange had NO prayer against Chthon or Set, against a chained Zom he held his own with AO's power till the LT showed up.
In other words, he didn't have an upgrade at all. Gotcha. And Zom NEVER defeated him.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You're missing the point where Strange and Kaluu could only seal off an agent of SG. He couldn't beat one at the start. It was only until he began absorbing and upping his power level was he able to move up the hierarchy. Strange was upgraded when he fought Arioch and he beat him by absorbing his power, not in a straight up fight. How would he fare against Arioch or SG if he hadn't amassed more magic? He lost an eye trying to go up against one of the lower Old Ones.In other words, he didn't have an upgrade at all. Gotcha. And Zom NEVER defeated him.
WWK, the point is, he couldn't "upgrade" himself by absorbing their powers or the power of their artifacts (Darkhold, Serpent Crown), or their minions, or anything.. He was totally fugged against Set and Chthon. Against a CHAINED Zom with the AO's power he was just barely holding his own till the LT showed up and zapped Zom.
Strange owned Gorath and his minions with little, if any, trouble. Even in their own realms. Strange has repeatedly owned Gorath.
Looking back, all we have regarding Gorath and yes even Zom, is hype, braggadocio, and hyperbole.
Originally posted by rotiart
During the recent arcs I seem to remember lord Marvell invoking shuma gorath by name when attemptin to kill Thanos and thus all life in the marvel universe...If that's true then in a way shuma goraths power was used to kill death in the many angled ones universe
Hm. Well, Thanos even tells Mistress Death that the Many-Angled Ones cannot die, he calls them "undying ones". Though they do have host bodies that can be crippled.