Marvel's Most Powerful Demon? Zom vs Shuma Gorath vs Chthon vs Set

Originally posted by zopzop
That's hyperbole or if we want to be generous, implied power. Nothing on panel. [b]Alluded, is said, or words to that effect tell me we got nothing concrete on our boy Gorath.

The fact that Arioch was defeated in about 4-6 panels tells me he was nothing more than fodder/trash. Let's see Strange pull that garbage on Set, Chthon or an unshackled Zom. Hell let's see him pull these hijinx with Loki, Hela or Pluto, then I'll concede. [/B]

Arioch's claims of his power are valid. Strange even confirmed that Arioch had that power, which is why he said he didn't plan to stand up against it but rather just take it. That whole confrontation was PIS anyway. When has Strange before or after Arioch been able to force someone to merge with him? Hell, if he had that power he should have done that right from the start against the lesser demons like the Water Elemental or even Nightmare, but he didn't.

Originally posted by Uriel005
As I said the whole Shuma vs Strange arc was PIS loaded on stranges part. Strange had to channel Shuma against Shuma. Name one being that he has ever needed to do something like that to. Better yet name someone who can defeat themselves. As Prodigy showed others it's really not feasible to defeat your own power.

Name another being that's been pwned that easily in their own realm using their own power? Cause Strange ran with his tail between his legs from Chthon in his realm and was helpless vs Set, helpless. Loaded with PIS? Maybe, but Gorath has lost to Strange one or two more times, I forget.

Let him try that garbage with Set or Chthon and let's see how long the fight lasts 🙂

Originally posted by CortSether
Arioch's claims of his power are valid. Strange even confirmed that Arioch had that power, which is why he said he didn't plan to stand up against it but rather just take it. That whole confrontation was PIS anyway. When has Strange before or after Arioch been able to force someone to merge with him? Hell, if he had that power he should have done that right from the start against the lesser demons like the Water Elemental or even Nightmare, but he didn't.

Actually Arioch's claims were nullified the instant Strange wtfpwned him the way he did. Face it, he's never beaten supposed "lesser" demon lords like Satannish or Mephisto that way. The first and only time Arioch shows his face and he gets rape stomped. So much for "omnipotence".

Originally posted by zopzop
Actually Arioch's claims were nullified the instant Strange wtfpwned him the way he did. Face it, he's never beaten supposed "lesser" demon lords like Satannish or Mephisto that way. The first and only time Arioch shows his face and he gets rape stomped. So much for "omnipotence".

By noting he's never beaten Satannish or Mephisto that way you are noting the PIS with Arioch because just a couple panels before Strange encounters Arioch Kaluu collapses within the realm and states that Mephisto and Satannish are like mice in a great temple compared to the energy inside it. Arioch was in a realm even further than that with even stronger energy so Arioch is obviously way more powerful than both Mephisto and Satannish.

Originally posted by CortSether
By noting he's never beaten Satannish or Mephisto that way you are noting the PIS with Arioch because just a couple panels before Strange encounters Arioch Kaluu collapses within the realm and states that Mephisto and Satannish are like mice in a great temple compared to the energy inside it. Arioch was in a realm even further than that with even stronger energy so Arioch is obviously way more powerful than both Mephisto and Satannish.

Hence why I say it's hyperbole! "Lesser" demons he's NEVER pulled a stunt like this on. Yet this "omnipotent" demon gets pwned in a few panels. Since this was said demon's FIRST AND ONLY appearance, my money is on him not being anywhere near as "omnipotent" as he though he was.

Originally posted by zopzop
Hence why I say it's hyperbole! "Lesser" demons he's NEVER pulled a stunt like this on. Yet this "omnipotent" demon gets pwned in a few panels. Since this was said demon's FIRST AND ONLY appearance, my money is on him not being anywhere near as "omnipotent" as he though he was.

It's not hyperbole, it's PIS. Strange's opponents grew more powerful as the journey went on, hell even Kaluu collapsed just going through the realms. He knows what Mephisto and Satannish are capable of and wasn't exaggerating when he said they were akin to mice in a temple. Arioch was really that powerful and Strange admits it by saying "I don't intend to stand against that power, not when I can take it" and forces a merging. The merging was the PIS but Arioch's power was not hyperbole since Strange/Arioch was able to fight Shuma with that power.

Originally posted by CortSether
It's not hyperbole, it's PIS. Strange's opponents grew more powerful as the journey went on, hell even Kaluu collapsed just going through the realms. He knows what Mephisto and Satannish are capable of and wasn't exaggerating when he said they were akin to mice in a temple. Arioch was really that powerful and Strange admits it by saying "I don't intend to stand against that power, not when I can take it" and forces a merging. The merging was the PIS but Arioch's power was not hyperbole since Strange/Arioch was able to fight Shuma with that power.

He took his power and beat him in about 6 panels. I don't care how much of a Gorath fan you are, that's a pathetic showing! He's never been able to pull that garbage with Loki or Mephisto let alone Set and Chthon.

The creature's first and only appearance on panel was pathetically sad. Unless he's come back and showed off his stuff recently, it's all talk and not much else.

PS Kaluu was obviously dead wrong.

Originally posted by zopzop
He took his power and beat him in about 6 panels. I don't care how much of a Gorath fan you are, that's a pathetic showing! He's never been able to pull that garbage with Loki or Mephisto let alone Set and Chthon.

He didn't have to pull anything with Loki. An inexperienced Strange already stalemated Loki. As for Mephsito, he's taken on Mephisto before and walked out just fine. He fought Nyirh with help and still lost an eye from that encounter. Of all those spawns of Set, which one of them would be a match for Nyirh, Water Element, Kathulos, or Arioch? Kaluu, a peer of the Ancient One, was dying being in a lower dimension before reaching Arioch's. That part wasn't hyperbole how much you want to claim. Classic Strange couldn't have just shown up in Arioch realm without upgrades otherwise he be on the floor quivering like Kaluu unless you want to argue Strange with no power up is above Kaluu. Mephisto, Satannish, and even Chthon's realm has been ventured into by a non-upgraded Strange. Though it was difficult for Strange, he wasn't writhing on the floor in Chthon's realm like Kaluu. Just the realm beneath Arioch's own was enough to take out a peer of the Ancient One. What demon lord can make that claim? Doom, Thor, Hell Cat, and a number of other's have journeyed into the nether realms without much trouble. If it's not power, I don't know what is.

The creature's first and only appearance on panel was pathetically sad. Unless he's come back and showed off his stuff recently, it's all talk and not much else.

So you're point is that he's not powerful because an upgraded Strange beat him? Yeah let's ignore Strange's master lying in a comatose in the dimension beneath Arioch's.

PS Kaluu was obviously dead wrong.

Wait, so when he was on the ground in a dying state because of just the power from that realm he was just playing possum? Really? That's you're argument?! It was also just hyperbole when Strange's fight with Shuma Gorath in dimensions away set the sky on fire, day and night to become one red wrath, causing a gypsy's eyes to bleed, flowers of fire to bloom, Dr Druid feeling spikes in his skull, and Talisman feeling something claw out of his chest. None of that is hyperbole. Non of his fights with any of the 616 demons have resulted in such a side effect. The power level is complete different between these combatants compared to regular Strange and you're 616 demons. And how is Kaluu wrong when SG can wreck Earth just by wrecking an image of it? Set, Chthon, Mephisto, Satannish, Dormammu, you name it, they can only dream of such power.

As for the Migard Serpent or the Moon Dragon are comparable to Nightmare and Arioch? Yeah, that's not even accurate. They'd be dead just like Kaluu was in that lower dimension much less challenge Arioch.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He didn't have to pull anything with Loki. An inexperienced Strange already stalemated Loki. As for Mephsito, he's taken on Mephisto before and walked out just fine. He fought Nyirh with help and still lost an eye from that encounter. Of all those spawns of Set, which one of them would be a match for Nyirh, Water Element, Kathulos, or Arioch? Kaluu, a peer of the Ancient One, was dying being in a lower dimension before reaching Arioch's. That part wasn't hyperbole how much you want to claim. Classic Strange couldn't have just shown up in Arioch realm without upgrades otherwise he be on the floor quivering like Kaluu unless you want to argue Strange with no power up is above Kaluu. Mephisto, Satannish, and even Chthon's realm has been ventured into by a non-upgraded Strange. Though it was difficult for Strange, he wasn't writhing on the floor in Chthon's realm like Kaluu. Just the realm beneath Arioch's own was enough to take out a peer of the Ancient One. What demon lord can make that claim? Doom, Thor, Hell Cat, and a number of other's have journeyed into the nether realms without much trouble. If it's not power, I don't know what is.

What the heck have either of those Gorath pawns done? Nothing on panel is impressive from them, except getting owned by Strange one by one.

Those heroes may have ventured into those nether realms, but none of them has defeated Set in his. Strange ran with his tail between his legs from Chthon's and NEVER defeated him there. Gorath can't claim that sadly.

So you're point is that he's not powerful because an upgraded Strange beat him? Yeah let's ignore Strange's master lying in a comatose in the dimension beneath Arioch's.

Strange's master lies in a coma but Strange goes on to beat an "omnipotent" creature by just nonchalantly stealing his power? Since this was Arioch's first and last appearance and since we saw NOTHING to indicate he was any sort of "all powerful" we can conclude that he was trash that got disposed of in six or so panels.

And we can just write that incident as a low showing for Kaluu. Everyone has them, even the LT.

Wait, so when he was on the ground in a dying state because of just the power from that realm he was just playing possum? Really? That's you're argument?! It was also just hyperbole when Strange's fight with Shuma Gorath in dimensions away set the sky on fire, day and night to become one red wrath, causing a gypsy's eyes to bleed, flowers of fire to bloom, Dr Druid feeling spikes in his skull, and Talisman feeling something claw out of his chest. None of that is hyperbole. Non of his fights with any of the 616 demons have resulted in such a side effect. The power level is complete different between these combatants compared to regular Strange and you're 616 demons. And how is Kaluu wrong when SG can wreck Earth just by wrecking an image of it? Set, Chthon, Mephisto, Satannish, Dormammu, you name it, they can only dream of such power.

They can only dream of being shxt stomped by Strange in their own realm of power like Gorath was? If that's power, thank goodness Set/Chthon and crew are "powerless".

As for the Migard Serpent or the Moon Dragon are comparable to Nightmare and Arioch? Yeah, that's not even accurate. They'd be dead just like Kaluu was in that lower dimension much less challenge Arioch.

Nightmare?! Arioch?! Who hasn't beaten Nightmare! I think one issue had Strange put him in a headlock or choke hold! And ps what has Arioch done again except get his ass kicked? I'm drawing a blank.

Originally posted by zopzop

What the heck have either of those Gorath pawns done? Nothing on panel is impressive from them, except getting owned by Strange one by one.

Lol, I like how you still just ignore Strange's power up. Destroyed Strange's eye and had him and Kaluu running from his Nyirch temple. Water Element nearly killed Strange in a fight causing Strange to kill the host and lose his white magic. What has any agent of Set or Chthon done that's comparable? Fight Ghost Rider? lol

SG took over Nightmare and Ancient One. What Elder Demon has feats comparable?

Those heroes may have ventured into those nether realms, but none of them has defeated Set in his. Strange ran with his tail between his legs from Chthon's and NEVER defeated him there. Gorath can't claim that sadly

Strange ran from Nyrich so what's your point? That Strange with power ups can't beat Set or Chthon? All you can say is Strange never defated Chthon or Set as if they fought numerous times and Strange failed. SG and Strange has more encounters then Strange does with these two. If Strange has one encounter with Chthon and does not go back for a rematch, you're point is Strange couldn't have beaten him if he came back with a power up? wtf. Both demons can't even escape their realm, they're no much of a concern. The only reason Strange decided to fight and defeat the Old Ones because they barriers were broken and they were on Earth readying to take over. Set and Chthon are still stuck in their realm. Do you see Strange going into Shuma Gorath's realm for a rematch? All he's done lately is close up the gate.

Get back to me when the Elder Gods are moving on Earth realm and in a Strange book and Strange runs from them. Then you'll have a point otherwise there's no fuse over this at all.

Strange's master lies in a coma but Strange goes on to beat an "omnipotent" creature by just nonchalantly stealing his power? Since this was Arioch's first and last appearance and since we saw NOTHING to indicate he was any sort of "all powerful" we can conclude that he was trash that got disposed of in six or so panels.

So what part of an powered-up Strange don't you understand? Even Kaluu admits Strange had the power to venture on while he, Kaluu, was lying on the ground dying. Arioch didn't need to be all powerful to be above the likes of the Earth demons. By that point, Strange was above his master in power and ventured into dimensions NO HUMAN has EVER gone. That's why lesser mages like Kaluu was dying.

And we can just write that incident as a low showing for Kaluu. Everyone has them, even the LT.

Lol. How's it a low showing for Kaluu when he states that no human ever ventured into the realm and it was only Strange who had the power to venture on? Are you claiming Kaluu was more powerful than Strange at that point? We shouldn't write Strange's incidents with Set and Chthon as low showings but we should do the same for this? If you want to claim it as high showings for Strange, then this is not a low showing for Kaluu at all.

They can only dream of being shxt stomped by Strange in their own realm of power like Gorath was? If that's power, thank goodness Set/Chthon and crew are "powerless".

Lmao. Yeah because Strange with no power ups did so well against Nyirch huh? Oh wait, he got a cool eye-patch courtesy of SG's underling and ran away along with his master. An underling of SG chased off and wounded Strange and his master. Strange didn't even get help from Kaluu or a peer sorcerror against Set or Chthon. Not much of an argument.

Nightmare?! Arioch?! Who hasn't beaten Nightmare! I think one issue had Strange put him in a headlock or choke hold! And ps what has Arioch done again except get his ass kicked? I'm drawing a blank.

But the Moon Dragon has more impressive feats right? Getting killed by Phyla-Vell must be something noteworthy. And the Migard Serpent, that things comparable to Arioch. I mean if Strange had absorbed the Migard Serpent, he'd easy walk into Arioch and SG's realm and beat the both of them - no need to take any other powerups when you have the Migard Serpents power. 🙄

And I like how you just ignored my post about their fight dimensions away wrecking havoc on Earth. Should I also point out that the Vishanti fought to hold Shuma Gorath in check but could never kill him back in SG's first appearance in Strange Tales? Then in these tales, Kaluu references this history to Strange, pointing out that he destroyed a Shuma Gorath when no sorcerrors, and not even Agamotto, has even done. Strange destroyed a being that the entire Vishanti fought in the past. Lol @ Set and Chthon. Remember that time when Set and Chthon created an image of Earth and wrecked it causing havoc on the actual Earth, oh wait...didn't I just say it was SG? Remember that time when a near-infinite Sise-neg put Set and Chthon to sleep rather than fight them fearing they would leech his power awayyyyyaminute...that was Shuma Gorath.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol, I like how you still just ignore Strange's power up. Destroyed Strange's eye and had him and Kaluu running from his Nyirch temple. Water Element nearly killed Strange in a fight causing Strange to kill the host and lose his white magic. What has any agent of Set or Chthon done that's comparable? Fight Ghost Rider? lol

SG took over Nightmare and Ancient One. What Elder Demon has feats comparable?

I like how you ignore that Strange you know never wtfpwned Set or Chthon like he did Gorath, like ever.

And I'm still trying to figure out this "power up" since the creature he got it from was basically instapwned by Strange.

Strange ran from Nyrich so what's your point? That Strange with power ups can't beat Set or Chthon? All you can say is Strange never defated Chthon or Set as if they fought numerous times and Strange failed. SG and Strange has more encounters then Strange does with these two. If Strange has one encounter with Chthon and does not go back for a rematch, you're point is Strange couldn't have beaten him if he came back with a power up? wtf. Both demons can't even escape their realm, they're no much of a concern. The only reason Strange decided to fight and defeat the Old Ones because they barriers were broken and they were on Earth readying to take over. Set and Chthon are still stuck in their realm. Do you see Strange going into Shuma Gorath's realm for a rematch? All he's done lately is close up the gate.

Get back to me when the Elder Gods are moving on Earth realm and in a Strange book and Strange runs from them. Then you'll have a point otherwise there's no fuse over this at all.

So what part of an powered-up Strange don't you understand? Even Kaluu admits Strange had the power to venture on while he, Kaluu, was lying on the ground dying. Arioch didn't need to be all powerful to be above the likes of the Earth demons. By that point, Strange was above his master in power and ventured into dimensions NO HUMAN has EVER gone. That's why lesser mages like Kaluu was dying.

Powered up by what? And Arioch isn't above ANY demon lord unless you got on panel evidence of him doing anything worthwhile. Hype, hyperbole, and braggadocio don't cut it.

Lol. How's it a low showing for Kaluu when he states that no human ever ventured into the realm and it was only Strange who had the power to venture on? Are you claiming Kaluu was more powerful than Strange at that point? We shouldn't write Strange's incidents with Set and Chthon as low showings but we should do the same for this? If you want to claim it as high showings for Strange, then this is not a low showing for Kaluu at all.

If it happened once, you'd have a point. But Strange couldn't do jack crap vs Set until Thor ran for his life and fetched Atum/Demogorge. Earlier, he needed the power of a cosmic cube, backed by his artifacts and the willpower of 3 other people to banish Set from Earth.

Conversely Strange has owned Gorath both IN and OUT of his realm.

Lmao. Yeah because Strange with no power ups did so well against Nyirch huh? Oh wait, he got a cool eye-patch courtesy of SG's underling and ran away along with his master. An underling of SG chased off and wounded Strange and his master. Strange didn't even get help from Kaluu or a peer sorcerror against Set or Chthon. Not much of an argument.

See above.

But the Moon Dragon has more impressive feats right? Getting killed by Phyla-Vell must be something noteworthy. And the Migard Serpent, that things comparable to Arioch. I mean if Strange had absorbed the Migard Serpent, he'd easy walk into Arioch and SG's realm and beat the both of them - no need to take any other powerups when you have the Migard Serpents power. 🙄

And I like how you just ignored my post about their fight dimensions away wrecking havoc on Earth. Should I also point out that the Vishanti fought to hold Shuma Gorath in check but could never kill him back in SG's first appearance in Strange Tales? Then in these tales, Kaluu references this history to Strange, pointing out that he destroyed a Shuma Gorath when no sorcerrors, and not even Agamotto, has even done. Strange destroyed a being that the entire Vishanti fought in the past. Lol @ Set and Chthon. Remember that time when Set and Chthon created an image of Earth and wrecked it causing havoc on the actual Earth, oh wait...didn't I just say it was SG? Remember that time when a near-infinite Sise-neg put Set and Chthon to sleep rather than fight them fearing they would leech his power awayyyyyaminute...that was Shuma Gorath.

The Vishanti can't even handle Chthon so what's your point? He alone penned a book that rivals their combined efforts(the Darkhold). And his artifact is indestructible. Strange likewise was going insane inside Chthon's realm and fled for his life. But unlike Gorath, Chthon wasn't wtfpwned. Strange turned tail and got out of dodge.

Originally posted by zopzop

I like how you ignore that Strange you know never wtfpwned Set or Chthon like he did Gorath, like ever.

And how many encounters did he have against Set again? One. Set faced an average Strange and you're going to act like he fought a being capable wrecking havok on Earth and the Nether realms just as a result in his fight.

And I'm still trying to figure out this "power up" since the creature he got it from was basically instapwned by Strange.

The eye socket he lost contained black magic. He used that eldricth so subdue the sprites of Earth. He goes off to fight the forces of Chaos off panel but later takes all the magic from his lover. They then journeyed to the realm beneath Arioch's and Kaluu went into a comatose. Unless you think average Strange is above Kaluu in power, Strange had gained more power than his master. The guy had power ups along the way to challenging Shuma Gorath and you're gonna pretend like it's nothing.

Powered up by what? And Arioch isn't above ANY demon lord unless you got on panel evidence of him doing anything worthwhile. Hype, hyperbole, and braggadocio don't cut it.

Black magic learned alongside Kaluu, the eldritch energy in his eye socket, and all of Victoria's magic. Lol at your claim it's hype when Kaluu was on the ground dying. So how is it hyperbole when a character is dying from being in a realm? Unless I missed something, most mystical beings are the power of their very realm. They hadn't even reach Arioch's realm.

If it happened once, you'd have a point. But Strange couldn't do jack crap vs Set until Thor ran for his life and fetched Atum/Demogorge. Earlier, he needed the power of a cosmic cube, backed by his artifacts and the willpower of 3 other people to banish Set from Earth.

You're talking about Marvel-Team which came 5 years before Strange fought the Old Ones. And in it, he fought the Serpent Crown and not Set himself. They only had one meeting which Strange didn't power himself up at all. Where would he get his power from before the confrontation? Absorbing the Migard Serpent's? Lol. Absorbing Set's power? He didn't face Arioch or Shuma Gorath without power-ups but he's going to absorb Set's off the bat like that? He couldn't do anything because he didn't have the necessary power to begin with unlike against Arioch and Shuma Gorath. In his prior fight he didn't have the necessary power to battle Nyirh and so he and Kaluu ran from it. All you've pointed to was an average Dr. Strange not beating Set as if he could've beaten Arioch or SG in that state either.

Conversely Strange has owned Gorath both IN and OUT of his realm.

He destroyed the Ancient One's body because he could not beat SG. That's why the Ancient One is dead, not a Zom's hand but at Strange trying to prevent SG from come to the 616. He met SG again in prehistoric times and pleaded with a near-omnipotent for help. That third time he learned black magic and amass power beyond his new mentor, absorbing Arioch's power, and then becoming SG to beat SG. That was his only fight where he beat SG straight up. And that fight was beyond the Elder Gods scuffle with the Demogorge. The fourth time, Strange closed off the gate - he didn't straight up beat SG like before. Where does he straight up beat SG without a power up? If closing up a gate way counts as beating someone, Viper shot Chthon's face in and "beat" the demon. Chthon got beat by a laser gun; more powerful than SG indeed.

The Vishanti can't even handle Chthon so what's your point? He alone penned a book that rivals their combined efforts(the Darkhold).

When was this stated that the Vishanti can't handle Chthon? Writing a book and fighting are different things. You're actually trying to claim the Vishanti can't beat Chthon if they fought?

And his artifact is indestructible. Strange likewise was going insane inside Chthon's realm and fled for his life. But unlike Gorath, Chthon wasn't wtfpwned. Strange turned tail and got out of dodge.

What artifact are you referring too? His Darkhold which was scattered among the corners of the Earth?

lol, Strange had who's powers when he ventured into Chthon's realm again? Kaluu was dying two realms below SG's and you act as if regular Strange wouldn't either. This is seriously getting funny because Kaluu is on the floor dying before he ever reached SG's dimension and you act as if that never happened.

Basically, Chthon did was nothing Nyirh couldn't do to Strange. In just a temple (not dimension), Nyirh chased off Strange and another mage. So you're basically impressed by Chthon performing a feat that an underling of Shuma Gorath accomplished. That's your so called "proof" that Chthon is more powerful that Shuma Gorath who could destroy Earth just by wrecking it's image.

Letsee, Strange and SG's battle, a thousand planes away, nearly collapsed the Nether-realm, set the sky on fire, and almost destroyed Earth. Or Set's battle with Demogorge on Earth that only destroyed all the dinosaurs. Different power gap. When the talisman were broken, the best Set could do was call on Ghaur to free him while SG could've destroyed the Earth using an image. Hmmm...Set must be more powerful than SG. What awesome logic you've got there.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And how many encounters did he have against Set again? One. Set faced an average Strange and you're going to act like he fought a being capable wrecking havok on Earth and the Nether realms just as a result in his fight.

The eye socket he lost contained black magic. He used that eldricth so subdue the sprites of Earth. He goes off to fight the forces of Chaos off panel but later takes all the magic from his lover. They then journeyed to the realm beneath Arioch's and Kaluu went into a comatose. Unless you think average Strange is above Kaluu in power, Strange had gained more power than his master. The guy had power ups along the way to challenging Shuma Gorath and you're gonna pretend like it's nothing.

Black magic learned alongside Kaluu, the eldritch energy in his eye socket, and all of Victoria's magic. Lol at your claim it's hype when Kaluu was on the ground dying. So how is it hyperbole when a character is dying from being in a realm? Unless I missed something, most mystical beings are the power of their very realm. They hadn't even reach Arioch's realm.

You're talking about Marvel-Team which came 5 years before Strange fought the Old Ones. And in it, he fought the Serpent Crown and not Set himself. They only had one meeting which Strange didn't power himself up at all. Where would he get his power from before the confrontation? Absorbing the Migard Serpent's? Lol. Absorbing Set's power? He didn't face Arioch or Shuma Gorath without power-ups but he's going to absorb Set's off the bat like that? He couldn't do anything because he didn't have the necessary power to begin with unlike against Arioch and Shuma Gorath. In his prior fight he didn't have the necessary power to battle Nyirh and so he and Kaluu ran from it. All you've pointed to was an average Dr. Strange not beating Set as if he could've beaten Arioch or SG in that state either.

He destroyed the Ancient One's body because he could not beat SG. That's why the Ancient One is dead, not a Zom's hand but at Strange trying to prevent SG from come to the 616. He met SG again in prehistoric times and pleaded with a near-omnipotent for help. That third time he learned black magic and amass power beyond his new mentor, absorbing Arioch's power, and then becoming SG to beat SG. That was his only fight where he beat SG straight up. And that fight was beyond the Elder Gods scuffle with the Demogorge. The fourth time, Strange closed off the gate - he didn't straight up beat SG like before. Where does he straight up beat SG without a power up? If closing up a gate way counts as beating someone, Viper shot Chthon's face in and "beat" the demon. Chthon got beat by a laser gun; more powerful than SG indeed.

When was this stated that the Vishanti can't handle Chthon? Writing a book and fighting are different things. You're actually trying to claim the Vishanti can't beat Chthon if they fought?

What artifact are you referring too? His Darkhold which was scattered among the corners of the Earth?

lol, Strange had who's powers when he ventured into Chthon's realm again? Kaluu was dying two realms below SG's and you act as if regular Strange wouldn't either. This is seriously getting funny because Kaluu is on the floor dying before he ever reached SG's dimension and you act as if that never happened.

Basically, Chthon did was nothing Nyirh couldn't do to Strange. In just a temple (not dimension), Nyirh chased off Strange and another mage. So you're basically impressed by Chthon performing a feat that an underling of Shuma Gorath accomplished. That's your so called "proof" that Chthon is more powerful that Shuma Gorath who could destroy Earth just by wrecking it's image.

Letsee, Strange and SG's battle, a thousand planes away, nearly collapsed the Nether-realm, set the sky on fire, and almost destroyed Earth. Or Set's battle with Demogorge on Earth that only destroyed all the dinosaurs. Different power gap. When the talisman were broken, the best Set could do was call on Ghaur to free him while SG could've destroyed the Earth using an image. Hmmm...Set must be more powerful than SG. What awesome logic you've got there.

Wall of text with nothing really there WWK.

Fact remains every time they fought Strange owned Gorath. The most embarrassing was the defeat in his own realm by Strange. Strange never defeated Chthon or Set in their realms and never defeated Zom period (even while he was shackled and Strange had the AO's power).

He couldn't "power" himself up vs Set and crew because they don't have gimp underlings that boast of "limitless" power then get rape stomped by a magician.

Set was exorcised back into his nether realm by the power of a cosmic cube backed by Strange's artifacts. Gorath was wtfpwned by Strange (in and out of his realm). The Dreaming Celestial trembled at the thought of Set's rising. Check the Secret Avengers 1-4 it gets even more interesting.

Eternity thanked Pym from saving him from the threat of Chthon.

The LT had to make a personal appearance to deal with a shackled Zom after Zom caused the "Flames of Regency" Umar to run for her life.

Yet for Gorath, none of the above even cared.

PS I love how you bring up Nyirh as if he was anything special. He took over a sub 3rd world area where people were living in mud huts and sacrificing their children to him! The fact that Strange struggled with such an "awesome" foe is laughable.

Originally posted by zopzop
Wall of text with nothing really there WWK.

Fact remains every time they fought Strange owned Gorath. The most embarrassing was the defeat in his own realm by Strange. Strange never defeated Chthon or Set in their realms and never defeated Zom period (even while he was shackled and Strange had the AO's power).

Then why didn't Chthon kill Strange again? That faith bolt was too much huh? Embarrassing is being harmed by a "faith bolt". WTF is that nonsense? Yeah think a faith bolt is going to harm Shuma Gorath? Chthon never defeated Strange and got whomped by a some lame attack that some random priest would do.

This is the best you've got?

He couldn't "power" himself up vs Set and crew because they don't have gimp underlings that boast of "limitless" power then get rape stomped by a magician.

You're calling the Migard Serpent for what it is: gimp.

Set was exorcised back into his nether realm by the power of a cosmic cube backed by Strange's artifacts.

?He fought the Serpent Crown, not Set. Got scans to back you up that it was actually Set and not the Serpent Crown?

Gorath was wtfpwned by Strange (in and out of his realm).

LMAO. By this point you just want to ignore everything just so you can say Set is greater than SG. I understand tho with the lack of evidence to back you.

The Dreaming Celestial trembled at the thought of Set's rising. Check the Secret Avengers 1-4 it gets even more interesting.

Oh, so we're to believe the Dreaming Celestial's little stir puts Set above SG and yet ignore how a Sise-Neg avoided a straight up confrontation with SG? You really want to get into a debate between the Elder Gods Vs the Celestials? The fear of a Celestial or the fear of Sise-Neg? Gee, which being absorbed everything and created the big bang?

Eternity thanked Pym from saving him from the threat of Chthon.

Lol. In other words Chthon got beat by Henry Pym. Add that to Chthon's list of losses. Pym embarrassed him by preventing him from casting spells - some powerful demon right there. lol. A threat to the universe? Throw a faith bolt at him or laser blaster for wins. Talk about horrible showings. Atleast SG's losses aren't embarrassing like Chthon.

The LT had to make a personal appearance to deal with a shackled Zom after Zom caused the "Flames of Regency" Umar to run for her life.

The Tribunal made a personal appearance before Mephisto too. By your logic, Mephisto> Chthon and Set. Some logic.

Yet for Gorath, none of the above even cared.

Except for the near Godly being saw SG as a threat if they fought. See, LT shows up and Zom burst into the wind. Sise-Neg sees SG and doesn't want to confront him head on so he saps enough power from SG before SG notices and puts the Old One to sleep. But you're gonna try and ignore this part too right? Zom was in no way a threat to LT while SG was a threat to Sise-Neg. Zom died. SG was only put to sleep.

PS I love how you bring up Nyirh as if he was anything special. He took over a sub 3rd world area where people were living in mud huts and sacrificing their children to him! The fact that Strange struggled with such an "awesome" foe is laughable.

Letsee, so you have no come back from this point and ignore that the Old Ones had just begun their take over of Earth. The being with just a temple blinded Strange and Kaluu and had them run from it. Whereas Strange with a "faith bolt" had Chthon think twice about keeping him in his realm. With his entire realm at his disposal, he couldn't destroy regular Dr. Strange. Some power house you got there.

Galactus Engine in Thanos Imperative was pwning cosmics and abstracts and it was stated that a group of more powerful entities were coming through the fault from behind the Galactus Engine, which could only mean the Many-Angled Ones, of which Shuma-Gorath is a part of, since they imbued the Galactus Engine with its power.

Set and Chthon are nowhere close to Shuma-Gorath's power.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Then why didn't Chthon kill Strange again? That faith bolt was too much huh? Embarrassing is being harmed by a "faith bolt". WTF is that nonsense? Yeah think a faith bolt is going to harm Shuma Gorath? Chthon never defeated Strange and got whomped by a some lame attack that some random priest would do.

This is the best you've got?

You're calling the Migard Serpent for what it is: gimp.

?He fought the Serpent Crown, not Set. Got scans to back you up that it was actually Set and not the Serpent Crown?

LMAO. By this point you just want to ignore everything just so you can say Set is greater than SG. I understand tho with the lack of evidence to back you.

Oh, so we're to believe the Dreaming Celestial's little stir puts Set above SG and yet ignore how a Sise-Neg avoided a straight up confrontation with SG? You really want to get into a debate between the Elder Gods Vs the Celestials? The fear of a Celestial or the fear of Sise-Neg? Gee, which being absorbed everything and created the big bang?

Lol. In other words Chthon got beat by Henry Pym. Add that to Chthon's list of losses. Pym embarrassed him by preventing him from casting spells - some powerful demon right there. lol. A threat to the universe? Throw a faith bolt at him or laser blaster for wins. Talk about horrible showings. Atleast SG's losses aren't embarrassing like Chthon.

The Tribunal made a personal appearance before Mephisto too. By your logic, Mephisto> Chthon and Set. Some logic.

Except for the near Godly being saw SG as a threat if they fought. See, LT shows up and Zom burst into the wind. Sise-Neg sees SG and doesn't want to confront him head on so he saps enough power from SG before SG notices and puts the Old One to sleep. But you're gonna try and ignore this part too right? Zom was in no way a threat to LT while SG was a threat to Sise-Neg. Zom died. SG was only put to sleep.

Letsee, so you have no come back from this point and ignore that the Old Ones had just begun their take over of Earth. The being with just a temple blinded Strange and Kaluu and had them run from it. Whereas Strange with a "faith bolt" had Chthon think twice about keeping him in his realm. With his entire realm at his disposal, he couldn't destroy regular Dr. Strange. Some power house you got there.

Again, a whole lot of nothing. It's walls of text to cover the shame of Gorath getting beaten by Strange both in and out of his realm.

You got awesome minions of Gorath with "limitless" mystic power being stomped in 6 panels by Strange or harassing third worlders in mudhuts. Supremely powerful beings who were beaten by having their roots attacked by the Crimson Bands and others with such power they can make it rain!

PS Strange RAN from Chthon, conversely he PWNED Gorath! See the difference? He did nothing but crumble into a fetal position in Set's realm, thankfully Demogorge/Thor showed up.

Originally posted by CortSether
Galactus Engine in Thanos Imperative was pwning cosmics and abstracts and it was stated that a group of more powerful entities were coming through the fault from behind the Galactus Engine, which could only mean the Many-Angled Ones, of which Shuma-Gorath is a part of, since they imbued the Galactus Engine with its power.

Set and Chthon are nowhere close to Shuma-Gorath's power.

Gorath is more powerful than abstracts but he can't beat Strange? Set and Chthon caused Strange to flee not the other way around.

Originally posted by zopzop
Again, a whole lot of nothing. It's walls of text to cover the shame of Gorath getting beaten by Strange both in and out of his realm.

So you're not going to answer it?

You got awesome minions of Gorath with "limitless" mystic power being stomped in 6 panels by Strange or harassing third worlders in mudhuts.

You got Strange with Arioch's power and Shuma Gorath fighting a thousand dimensions away causing the sky of Earth to burn, the Nether-realms near collapse, and demonic events happening to the sorcerror's of Earth. But yeah, ignore that part.

Supremely powerful beings who were beaten by having their roots attacked by the Crimson Bands and others with such power they can make it rain!

?! That's your counter? Faith bolt anyone?

PS Strange RAN from Chthon, conversely he PWNED Gorath!

Faith bolt owned Chthon. Strange should've brought a laser gun too. Explain how a laser gun or some faith bolt is even close to killing the Ancient One? Strange ran from Nyirh, nuff said. No powerup and Strange ran from an underling. No biggie.

See the difference?

Yeah, a hand gun shot Chthon that beat him while it took the death of the Ancient One to beat stop. Do you see the difference here?

In SG realms, Strange became SG to beat SG. While in Chthon's realm a "faith bolt" caused Chthon to send Strange out of his realm. Do you see the difference between? One attack from Strange f##k with Chthon while an amped Strange still had to become SG to beat him.

He did nothing but crumble into a fetal position in Set's realm, thankfully Demogorge/Thor showed up.

And who's power was he amped with? Oh that's right, none. And where does he curl up in Set's realm? Scans? I guess you're confusing this with Kaluu dying in that lower realm.

So again, SG was going to destroy the Earth with just an image from a thousand plane away. Set at his height caused the dinsosaurs extinct in a fight with Demogore. lol @ Set and Chthon.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So you're not going to answer it?

You got Strange with Arioch's power and Shuma Gorath fighting a thousand dimensions away causing the sky of Earth to burn, the Nether-realms near collapse, and demonic events happening to the sorcerror's of Earth. But yeah, ignore that part.

?! That's your counter? Faith bolt anyone?

Faith bolt owned Chthon. Strange should've brought a laser gun too. Explain how a laser gun or some faith bolt is even close to killing the Ancient One? Strange ran from Nyirh, nuff said. No powerup and Strange ran from an underling. No biggie.

Yeah, a hand gun shot Chthon that beat him while it took the death of the Ancient One to beat stop. Do you see the difference here?

In SG realms, Strange became SG to beat SG. While in Chthon's realm a "faith bolt" caused Chthon to send Strange out of his realm. Do you see the difference between? One attack from Strange f##k with Chthon while an amped Strange still had to become SG to beat him.

And who's power was he amped with? Oh that's right, none. And where does he curl up in Set's realm? Scans? I guess you're confusing this with Kaluu dying in that lower realm.

So again, SG was going to destroy the Earth with just an image from a thousand plane away. Set at his height caused the dinsosaurs extinct in a fight with Demogore. lol @ Set and Chthon.

You keep mentioning the "Arioch amp" like it's something quantifiable. We don't know how powerful Arioch was at all. He got his ass handed to him by Strange so fast we couldn't even get a good gauge of his abilities and power level. Worse, what we did see was mere illusion casting!

Strange was going mad inside Chthon's realm, distracted Chthon and then he fled! He never beat Chthon. All Chthon's losses on Earth were because of his host bodies. Recently while on Earth : He banished Asgard and a US state to some nether realm and King Thor had no clue what to do, warped the people on Earth into abominations, trapped the FF as tv signals, and more. This wasn't even him exerting himself in battle.

Concerning Set, Strange and crew were on their knees about to bite the big one till Demogorge/Thor showed up. Set was battling them WHILE holding a fellow Elder God prisoner, something Thor didn't even think was possible. Earlier it took a cosmic cube, the will of Strange/Wanda/Thing/Spiderman AND Strange's artifacts to exorcise Set from the planet. That's a shxtload of power. Then you have Set's million year old stalemate with Demogorge before Demogorge gained the upper hand. This being made Skyfathers panic.

Strange couldn't "amp" (drain their minions, use their own power against them, etc..) vs Elder Gods because that piddling crap don't work on them. Maybe Gorath and his minions have to step up their game and stop harassing mud hut dwelling natives in loincloths and take on Gods (or at least people that have running water).

Vs a SHACKLED Zom, Strange was barely holing his own even with the AO's power until the LT came along and saved the day.

Originally posted by zopzop
You keep mentioning the "Arioch amp" like it's something quantifiable. We don't know how powerful Arioch was at all. He got his ass handed to him by Strange so fast we couldn't even get a good gauge of his abilities and power level. Worse, what we did see was mere illusion casting!

Of course we can gauge it. It gave Strange enough power to fight SG. When Strange became SG, his entrance into the lower realm caused a natural discharge of power that Kaluu noted would destroy galaxies if Strange entered the 616 without burning up most of that power. The power to wreck galaxies by being in a lower realm - that's quantifiable.

Strange was going mad inside Chthon's realm, distracted Chthon and then he fled! He never beat Chthon.

Hmmm...an unamped sorceror decides visit a chaos dimension and succumbs to it's power...Kaluu anyone? But was it killing him like Kaluu, nope.

He then hurls a spell molded from belief/faith/will that causes Chthon to howl in pain, striking back at Strange and sent him hurling out of Chthon's dimension. He didn't flee that dimension; he harmed Chthon enough that it lashed out and blasted him out. lol Fled? Chthon was harmed by one spell from Strange - one!

All Chthon's losses on Earth were because of his host bodies.

Strange had no trouble of preventing Chthon from forming on Earth without killing the Victoria. All it took was a spell using all that is highest and purest in her soul. Jeezes, and had Chthon not retreated he would've been destroyed! Letsee Strange try this purest soul crap with Shuma Gorath. Remember when Strange and the Ancient One had no other option of stopping SG from entering the world through the AO so Strange had to KILL his master instead? Lol @ this soul thing that Chthon could've been destroyed from.

Recently while on Earth : He banished Asgard and a US state to some nether realm and King Thor had no clue what to do, warped the people on Earth into abominations, trapped the FF as tv signals, and more. This wasn't even him exerting himself in battle.

You forget how Loki easily crossed that barrier threw a wrench in Chthon's plans. The so called chaos Chthon was creating when he was present is a minor feat compared to Shuma Gorath being a thousand planes away and wrecking havoc to Earth using just a voodoo image.

And then Chthon got his butt kicked in by Hank Pym, Scientist Supreme (lol).

Concerning Set, Strange and crew were on their knees about to bite the big one till Demogorge/Thor showed up. Set was battling them WHILE holding a fellow Elder God prisoner, something Thor didn't even think was possible. Earlier it took a cosmic cube, the will of Strange/Wanda/Thing/Spiderman AND Strange's artifacts to exorcise Set from the planet. That's a shxtload of power. Then you have Set's million year old stalemate with Demogorge before Demogorge gained the upper hand. This being made Skyfathers panic.

Yeah, this is a way better feat then having powers that could wreck all from a thousand planes away using just a voodoo image. Or being such a power house that a near Godly Sise-Neg opted not to fight but rather put SG to sleep before SG is aware of Sise-Neg. It takes him a million year to fight another god and the result was the death of the dinosaur? And you some how put that above Sise-Neg avoiding a confrontation with SG.

Strange couldn't "amp" (drain their minions, use their own power against them, etc..) vs Elder Gods because that piddling crap don't work on them.

Who was he going to get an amp from? The midwife who's purpose is to act as a midwife or those minor demons? Some amp there.

As for Set, he's getting an amp from? Those useless Serpent Men? When he takes their power, he takes all their magic from them. The only one he could've taken powers from was Thor and then you'd have Thor, former god of thunder. lol

Maybe Gorath and his minions have to step up their game and stop harassing mud hut dwelling natives in loincloths and take on Gods (or at least people that have running water).

He harassed Strange and took over the Ancient One's body. Strange killed the Ancient One to stop SG b/c there was no other choice according to the Ancient One. Chthon goes about and picks on a woman and got handled by her purest of soul that could've actually destroyed him had he not retreated. Remember that other time when Viper vaporized him with a gun? Maybe for Chthon to have some street creds, he should avoid picking on women...or women beaters like Pym.

Vs a [b]SHACKLED Zom, Strange was barely holing his own even with the AO's power until the LT came along and saved the day. [/B]

I remembered the Ancient One dying too. But according to this he was pretending to die to bring Strange's potential out. Going to dive through my Dr. Strange Essential this weekend to see if this is true. If this is true, then Zom didn't even fight an amped Strange but a rookie Strange who was still learning. The Ancient One does die permanently tho to stop Shuma Gorath from coming to the 616.
http://marvel.com/universe/Ancient_One_(sorcerer)