Originally posted by illadelph12
And what is the "psionic energy" of all life?
At least that's my understanding. I think of the Phoenix as a Mind Elemental of sorts.
Originally posted by marwash22
a few things (for the following, please only use evidence [scans] from the WW we are discussing and not the entire span of her career):1. how does this lasso work? can i get a scan or two showing how WW uses it to break illusions?
It's truth in rope form basically. If you put it around someone, enchantments and illusions on them will break.
Instead of breaking mere illusions, how about It's used to restore Donna Troy after she was erased from the universe, or breaking through an enchantment strong enough to control Superman's mind and make him see nothing but rage, or reversing mental change to dozens of people at once.
A touch makes a de-evolved Batman reconize her http://img57.imageshack.us/f/435ok.jpg/
The respect thread has an annoying lack of scans of her dealing with actual illusions instead of mind control, but in Rucka's run there was one story where Dr. Psycho kept running around making people see whatever (in a manner very similar to Aizen), like think Diana's the Joker or someone's on fire or what have you, she'd put the lasso on them, and bam, done, they'd see normal again. And he even comments on her immunity (and yes, she does use the lasso to free them next page, but I couldn't find a scan of that).
2. can i get a scan or two of WW tanking nukes and high yield explosives and if possible, include the resulting damage of the blast.
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/10/23/12/27/1228353_968x1446.jpg
http://www.picamatic.com/view/1228363_gl7375cy/
She tanks a blast that Kyle 'maybe could've' contained with his ring and they were worried about taken out a chunk of the city.
There's also a recent example in the Rise of Olympians story where she sees a nuke, flies up to it, and punches it
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27444/1090824-wonder_woman__31___page_21_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27444/1090827-wonder_woman__31___page_22_super.jpg
3. this one is a question i already asked to which i didn't get a sufficient answer to... can i get a scan showing how much damage WW can do with a punch.
I posted a link of Superman holding bruised ribs after being hit by her, so that's already a high amount of damage, dunno why that wouldn't satisfy.
here's her diving from orbit. Can't really tell how much damage that is, but obviously a fair amount.
4. can i get a scan showing how WW fairs against strong opponents who use blades/swords.
Vs Achilles
http://img4.imageshack.us/f/ww2gq.jpg/
http://img3.imageshack.us/f/ww4x.jpg/
Vs Mera w/trident of Poseidon
http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/105/1058468/blackest-night-wonder-woman-20100105083532266.jpg
Vs the Goddess Medusa
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/10/23/07/14/1229828_560x875.jpg
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/10/23/07/15/1229832_560x868.jpg
Notable because she's cut up and tossed around but still wins. All of those except for Mera are class 100.
Also her arch enemy is Cheetah (seen there one-shotting Firestorm). Again a surprising lack of scans, but needless to say she's dealt with getting cut up a lot.
5. show me how this lasso works as it pertains to binding gasses and poisons.
It doesn't. With gasses her options are more holding her breath, flying away, making a tornado by running around fast to clear it (yea, she's done that), dive underground and take the enemy out without having to deal with it, and so on.
If she gets poisoned she relies on her intensely strong constitution and healing factor to handle it and it tends to only temporarily have effect, as Dr. Poison (one of her old enemies) can tell you, but she's also good at avoiding it.
6. please show examples WW fighting multiple opponents who have a high degree of speed and strength.
While blind.
And they comment also moving too fast for her to use hearing to fight Flash.
7. Are WW's lasso, tiara, and bracers immune to the effects of aging? If so, please provide evidence.
The Zeus's Aegis or Aphrodite's Lasso of Trut subject to aging? Well, come to think of it, we *know* the Lasso's around in 800,000+ years, as well as what are upgraded forms of the bracers.
The tiara, may be effected. It's enchantment but it's not a Skyfather-level artifact like the others.
8. Please provide a scan where WW has defeated a foe while blind, deaf, lacking the sense of smell and the ability to otherwise sense an opponents location.
See 6 above.
She had smell and touch... though I don't think smell helped.
Same situation against Zoom. Blind and he moved too fast for any other sense to really help.
9. Please show an instance where WW has dodged large numbers of fast moving, highly destructive projectiles. (please do not use the Shattered God scan because that does not cover "large numbers of fast moving, highly destructive projectiles"😉
How about heat vision? Not really a 'projectile,' but sure is fast and destructive.
10. give an instance (using a scan) of the strongest obstacle (barrier, chains, shield, encasement, cell, etc) she has ever broken free from/smashed through and provide context that explains how strong said obstacle is.
I dunno if it's the strongest, but here's Sinestro's constructs being broken by her. I doubt I have to explain who Sinestro is.
11. please show how she fairs against temperatures capable of reducing rock into ash upon contact and that are high enough to ignite the surrounding air.
Blocking heat vision with her bare hands while being right next to the sun.
12. can someone show how fast WW is capable of throwing a punch/kick and also provide evidence as to how fast the reaction time of the target was to whom she used the attack on.
Officially faster than Superman.
13. Is WW capable of moving when time has been stopped? If so, please provide evidence.
No, though fortunately none of the Bleach characters have the ability to stop time so who cares?
Well, I think I've provided way more scans and examples than your post honestly requires! 🙂
Originally posted by Q99The Zeus's Aegis or Aphrodite's Lasso of Trut subject to aging? Well, come to think of it, we *know* the Lasso's around in 800,000+ years, as well as what are upgraded forms of the bracers.
The tiara, may be effected. It's enchantment but it's not a Skyfather-level artifact like the others.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I see her unenchanted clothes withering away while the rest of her remains unchanged, which works in her advantage because Ichigo will be too flustered by her nudity to do a damn thing. 😛
Oh, she can do that spinny-thing and get a new outfit! Or maybe wrap herself up in the lasso...
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
only thing is, jinzin is actually putting up a decent argument while every wonder woman supports are going"nuh uh! wont work coz wonder woman is immortal"
"nuh uh! wont work coz wonder woman is super duper faster"
"nuh uh! wont work coz wonder woman has da lasssoooo"
and so on and so forth.
all arguments that x attack by bleach crew are countered by "nuh uh! wont work"
Sigh.... pretty much.
We're supposed to consider that Barragan can't whither her away because she's an immortal?
Arrancars don't age and his power worked on himself.
It worked on majic too... but she'll be immune supposedly.
We're supposed to believe that she'll be able to avoid complete hypnosis even though there's been times when she's fell right into illusions in spite of her godly sight.
As to how I'm supposed to believe that she can take Tosen without her senses..... Yikes.. I mean I don't think getting beaten up by flash is something that would make a case for her even though she "adapted" to him eventually... but it doesn't matter cause WW pawns all... 😘
Originally posted by jinzin
[B]
We're supposed to consider that Barragan can't whither her away because she's an immortal?
Arrancars don't age and his power worked on himself.
We don't know Arrancars don't age, the fact he looks very old even suggests they do, I think he mentions that even they are subject to his power.
We were told how it works and it works in a way that shouldn't work on her.
It worked on majic too... but she'll be immune supposedly.
It specifically works on anything that'll eventually be ravaged by time, because Kido ends with time. She is specifically does not and has demonstrated so against very similar abilities that have been shown. So, yea.
All it's doing is hyperaccelerating something's decay. Multiple that by 0, for no decay, and you get 0. Any of her stuff that has decay will go away, but not her or her best artifacts that are not.
We're supposed to believe that she'll be able to avoid complete hypnosis even though there's been times when she's fell right into illusions in spite of her godly sight.
And even those times, her lasso could break them.
Keep in mind, good medical skills and observation were enough to be suspicious of the illusion.
As to how I'm supposed to believe that she can take Tosen without her senses..... Yikes.. I mean I don't think getting beaten up by flash is something that would make a case for her even though she "adapted" to him eventually... but it doesn't matter cause WW pawns all... 😘
She won that fight because she managed to do so with no sense but touch (which is all Tosen's leaves), and then later beat Zoom who's faster than Flash.
It was flat out shown and stated.
How are you supposed to believe it? By looking at the facts and not just saying "How am I supposed to believe that?" when the evidence goes against what you want it to.
Incredulousness is not the same as a counterargument.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I've been trying to look into the Bleach mythos a bit more in depth to offer an objective view (as I, per usual, don't have a dog in this fight or any favoritism). It appears that the Bleach characters are some stylixed variant on angels of life and death. Their abilities and nature is "supernatural", but it's not typical magic casting per se, it seems to be the moreso deal in manipulating soul and life energies for varying effects, and they are all spiritual beings. Possibly a level of divinity within their own universe.
Exactly, they are "Death Gods"
And their spiritual pressure is something that affects all of their abilities accross the board, its one of the reasons why Q's arguments are so fallicious. For instance, we've never seen anyone break out of a binding spell with "pure physical strength" because the strength of Bleach characters for the most part is directly influenced by their spiritual pressure.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't think they are being represented properly in the pro Bleach arguments though.
Well if I have it wasn't on purpose. But I don't think this statement applies to myself.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The high end Bleach characters are obviously herald level.
Could you back that up? I haven't gotten that impression at all, even the strongest haven't displayed near Herald level power IMO.
High-meta or so, if you ask me.
WW has demonstrably higher speed, physical strength, and damage resistance than Bleach.
Originally posted by Q99
We don't know Arrancars don't age, the fact he looks very old even suggests they do, I think he mentions that even they are subject to his power.We were told how it works and it works in a way that shouldn't work on her.
Yes we were told how it works...
in other words.. "EVERTHING AGES" as well as the whole notion of eternity being a concept made my men.
Lillyinette flat out stated Arrancars don't age... 😐
Originally posted by Q99
It specifically works on anything that'll eventually be ravaged by time, because Kido ends with time. She is specifically does not and has demonstrated so against very similar abilities that have been shown. So, yea.All it's doing is hyperaccelerating something's decay. Multiple that by 0, for no decay, and you get 0. Any of her stuff that has decay will go away, but not her or her best artifacts that are not.
Arrancars don't age... It worked on one of them. Your defense is shot. 😐
Originally posted by Q99
And even those times, her lasso could break them.
Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind, good medical skills and observation were enough to be suspicious of the illusion.
Originally posted by Q99 She won that fight because she managed to do so with no sense but touchFor one she had to correct her timing and adapt to Flash... something Carver already called you out on.
(which is all Tosen's leaves), and then later beat Zoom who's faster than Flash.
Originally posted by Q99
It was flat out shown and stated.
What? That she EVENTUALLY adapted to Flash under said conditions?
Yeah after it was stated that he started out picking her apart.. She doesn't have the benefit of having a team-mate who is looking out for her best interest. Tosen will go for something lethal in the first blow.
Originally posted by Q99 How are you supposed to believe it? By looking at the facts and not just saying "How am I supposed to believe that?" when the evidence goes against what you want it to.Incredulousness is not the same as a counterargument.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The f*ck?Wonder Woman gets f*cking raped. The high end Bleach characters are obviously herald level.
Wonder Woman not being very good against piercing damage doesn't exactly help either.
If their herald I'd call them quite low end hehe...
But yeah that aside she shouldn't have a prayer here...
Originally posted by Q99
Could you back that up? I haven't gotten that impression at all, even the strongest haven't displayed near Herald level power IMO.High-meta or so, if you ask me.
WW has demonstrably higher speed, physical strength, and damage resistance than Bleach.
In the latest chapters Ichigo destroyed a mountain with a swing of his sword:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-18.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-19.html
After that he withstands a torrent of Gravity that can apparently warp space/time:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-18.html
Then he goes on to tank this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-14.html
Even way before this, I recall Kenpachi easily destroying Skyscrapers and shit with sword slices.
I don't know what you consider Herald level but not even the highest of high heralds go around destroying planets. On average expect some mountain level destruction at best.
I'm going to rethink my stance on the Thor/Vegeta question.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
In the latest chapters Ichigo destroyed a mountain with a swing of his sword:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-18.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-19.htmlAfter that he withstands a torrent of Gravity that can apparently warp space/time:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-431-page-18.htmlThen he goes on to tank this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-432-page-14.htmlEven way before this, I recall Kenpachi easily destroying Skyscrapers and shit with sword slices.
And I STILL don't think we've got past the first massive problem that this matchup posed.. which is the point of Wonder Woman's speed IN COMBAT...
Seriously... We all know she can flay fast, or blitz fast in a straight line/tackle etc... But we STILL have yet to see evidence of Wonder Woman fighting at a degree of speed that would legitimate her ability to handle Bleachers in close quarters combat.
What's worse is that she only has a handful of speed feats that one can use to even suggest she can do so, and those feats have been used as though it's her norm in combat.. which is disengenuous at best...
