Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
not really, death and oblivion outlive eternity and infiity
Exactly my point. PF > Power Gem > Infinity. We weren't discussing Death or Oblivion. 😄
@Mr Master
Uhm, how would the writers show the PF destroying 616 when that would basically be the end of everything.
The writers wisely use What If's when they want something universe shaking but without fooling with 616 continuity because that would be messy all around.
In fact, in ALL Marvel Comic's history how many times have we seen a universe destroyed on panel? Either 616 or in an alternate universe?
Off the top of my head -
Phoenix TWICE. What If : Jean Grey had not died and What If : Wolverine was alive during the Age of Conan.
Thanos once with the plot device of the uni... I mean the HotU.
All other universe busting feats were using the UN by someone (see Korvac in What If - Korvac had not died).
See a pattern? It's either a plot device - the UN/HotI or the PF.
Originally posted by zopzop
Exactly my point. PF > Power Gem > Infinity. We weren't discussing Death or Oblivion. 😄@Mr Master
Uhm, how would the writers show the PF destroying 616 when that would basically be the end of everything.
The writers wisely use What If's when they want something universe shaking but without fooling with 616 continuity because that would be messy all around.
In fact, in ALL Marvel Comic's history how many times have we seen a universe destroyed on panel? Either 616 or in an alternate universe?
Off the top of my head -
Phoenix TWICE. What If : Jean Grey had not died and What If : Wolverine was alive during the Age of Conan.
Thanos once with the plot device of the uni... I mean the HotU.
All other universe busting feats were using the UN by someone (see Korvac in What If - Korvac had not died).
See a pattern? It's either a plot device - the UN/HotI or the PF.
Lol. Go read the forum rules please.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol. Go read the forum rules please.
LOL 🙄 I read them. That's not the point. My point was the PF is easily capable of universal level destruction (at the MINIMUM). All other universe busters have been shown using plot devices : HotI and the UN.
That's why I was asking him to SHOW me universal level destruction ANYWHERE in 616 or in a What If (after all, What If's are alternate universes).
So far the only ones I can think of are involving the PF going berserk and ending it all.
Originally posted by zopzop
LOL 🙄 I read them. That's not the point. My point was the PF is easily capable of universal level destruction (at the MINIMUM). All other universe busters have been shown using plot devices : HotI and the UN.
Prove she can without bringing up a What If.
That's why I was asking him to SHOW me universal level destruction ANYWHERE in 616 or in a What If (after all, What If's are alternate universes).
- Maelstrom creating a black hole that was swallowing up the 616. The Celestials and Watchers showed up to watch the end of the universe as they posses no power to stop it.
- Kubik warping Beyonder's universe in his hand.
- http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56665/1293003-vishanti_agamotto_galactus06_super.jpg
So far the only ones I can think of are involving the PF going berserk and ending it all.
...in a What If. In another What If, Maelstrom stalemated Thanos with the IG. Outside of What If, Maelstrom withstood the attack of the IG and came close to destroying the 616. The PF has done no such thing.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Prove she can without bringing up a What If.
SHOW ME ANYWHERE A UNIVERSE WAS DESTROYED ON PANEL (616 or What If). I listed my examples. The PF does it under it's own power with absolutely no need for a plot device (UN or HotI).
- Maelstrom creating a black hole that was swallowing up the 616. The Celestials and Watchers showed up to watch the end of the universe as they posses no power to stop it.
- Kubik warping Beyonder's universe in his hand.
- http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56665/1293003-vishanti_agamotto_galactus06_super.jpg
FAIL. The universe was NOT destroyed was it? I asked you to show me a universe biting the dust on panel. So far you've failed.
...in a What If. In another What If, Maelstrom stalemated Thanos with the IG. Outside of What If, Maelstrom withstood the attack of the IG and came close to destroying the 616. The PF has done no such thing.
That's great but what does that have to do with anything? I didn't see a universe being wiped out did you? I saw the Sun being torn apart but that's about it (in the What If you mentioned with Thanos/Maelstrom going at it).
Originally posted by zopzop
SHOW ME ANYWHERE A UNIVERSE WAS DESTROYED ON PANEL (616 or What If). I listed my examples. The PF does it under it's own power with absolutely no need for a plot device (UN or HotI).
From a What If, which isn't even canon. Thanks for playing. That's not the same Phoenix Force you do know right? There's another What If where Wolverine sliced off Thanos' arm in one swipe. Another What If where Doom retained his Beyonder powers and attained the Infinity Gauntlet as well. But with that much power, it still took him 407 Earth years to defeat a Celestial Host and shattered the gem and most of his Beyonder's power. The IG in the canon universe had little resistant at all. Eternity, Galactus, Epoch, the Celestials, and the other cosmics deities were brushed aside in under a minute.
FAIL. The universe was NOT destroyed was it? I asked you to show me a universe biting the dust on panel. So far you've failed.
Lol. You wanted to know if anyone has the power to do it. The only reason it wasn't destroyed was because Maelstrom was beaten. Phoenix never even came close to that in any canon stories. That's why you have to bring in a What If. You have no other source to back up your claim that Phoenix can destroy the universe in a canon story.
That's great but what does that have to do with anything? I didn't see a universe being wiped out did you? I saw the Sun being torn apart but that's about it (in the What If you mentioned with Thanos/Maelstrom going at it).
Lol. Oh so now it's basically the IG isn't it's universal wrecking levels because you didn't see a universe destroyed huh? So everything happening in the What If is canon to the regular universe but not vice versa huh?
My point is, Maelstrom in canon story stopped the mention of the universe and created a black hole that was sucking eveything into it and only stopped because Infinity's avatar but him in a match. What you've been mentioning is feats from PF that come from a non-canon. Feats that are irrelevant to the canon universe, hence why it's in the forum rules.
Where does it say anywhere in the fight that we're using What If's as well to base their power? If it's not specified by the original poster, we go by forum rules. What If's aren't canon.
PF NEVER destroyed a universe. Hence it's not doing anything to Infinity at all. She crushes the PF.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]From a What If, which isn't even canon. Thanks for playing. That's not the same Phoenix Force you do know right? There's another What If where Wolverine sliced off Thanos' arm in one swipe. Another What If where Doom retained his Beyonder powers and attained the Infinity Gauntlet as well. But with that much power, it still took him 407 Earth years to defeat a Celestial Host and shattered the gem and most of his Beyonder's power. The IG in the canon universe had little resistant at all. Eternity, Galactus, Epoch, the Celestials, and the other cosmics deities were brushed aside in under a minute.
What If's ARE canon. How did the Starbrand get into the 616 universe? I'll tell you how, Quasar was blasted into the Starbrand multiverse by a What If version of Maelstrom and found his way back.
What If's are ALTERNATE universes. That issue of Quasar made it clear. In these ALTERNATE universes we've seen the PF pwn a universe using nothing but it's OWN power, TWICE. Show me where any other being has done that on panel. That's what I'm asking you.
And the IG in that universe fought THE ENTIRE CELESTIAL RACE, not merely a host. Not just 2 of them. The IG in 616 fought : Galactus, Love/Hate, Order/Chaos, Stranger, Eon, and TWO Celestials. My money's on the ENTIRE Celestial being greater than the power assembled in 616 to fight the IG.
Lol. You wanted to know if anyone has the power to do it. The only reason it wasn't destroyed was because Maelstrom was beaten. Phoenix never even came close to that in any canon stories. That's why you have to bring in a What If. You have no other source to back up your claim that Phoenix can destroy the universe in a canon story.
The writers through the years have made it clear that the PF is at least capable of universal destruction. We have a "canon" reference by the Watcher that the PF is second only to the Creator in power. We have "canon" references by BOTH Death AND Galactus that the PF will/can destroy all that is AND bring about new life from that destruction.
Lol. Oh so now it's basically the IG isn't it's universal wrecking levels because you didn't see a universe destroyed huh? So everything happening in the What If is canon to the regular universe but not vice versa huh?My point is, Maelstrom in canon story stopped the mention of the universe and created a black hole that was sucking eveything into it and only stopped because Infinity's avatar but him in a match. What you've been mentioning is feats from PF that come from a non-canon. Feats that are irrelevant to the canon universe, hence why it's in the forum rules.
Where does it say anywhere in the fight that we're using What If's as well to base their power? If it's not specified by the original poster, we go by forum rules. What If's aren't canon.
PF NEVER destroyed a universe. Hence it's not doing anything to Infinity at all. She crushes the PF.
And yet he NEVER destroyed a universe on panel did he? Aside from the PF and the UN/HotI, this is the best example you can give because you know such a feat is a rarity. In both 616 and alternative universes. The fact that the PF has been shown doing it twice (that I can recall) is lost on you.
Another thing the PF has stopped a super massive black hole from destroying the universe before it's called the Neutron Galaxy contained in the M'kran Crystal. So it's been there and done that.
The Phoenix force? Meh cannon. Phoenix seen messing with the universe in the palm of her hand
Franklin Richards under his sheetsndoing the same thing with a pocket universe
Franklin created the heroes reborn universe
Starbrand is cannon to 616 because it was made cannon by bringing it in... Those other stories are not cannon because while
Similar there is no frame of reference comparing if they had the dame ACTuAL levels of power. Don't stop owing off on a nut with capsnit doesn't serve your purpose
And yes they are alternate uni eras. In one the living tribunal had to confine Michael korvac an conisder destroying the whole universe because o him... In 616 living tribunal didn't bother to intervene... Why didn't that show a difference in power levels?
And as far as galactus who fires the um whih is a part of him tonsedeay abraxas a multiverseal threat that was collapsing realities with his approach alone...
616 cannon
Oh also I you compare 616 mjj was more powerful than his alternate universe counterpart in 238?
In an alternate universe punished killed everyone...
Btw the ultimates is considered an alternate universe too... Do you compare anyone in there to 616?
What about the characters from age of apocalypse... You know the one where wolverine loses a hand...
And thinking o alternate universes let's think about alternate futures too like where wolverine is just a skeleton cause he's dead and in another future he's a hooded figure...
Oye
There is also an alternate universe where everyone has an alter ego and in that universe noone has powers but when Jennifer Walters (shehulks) alter ego came to our universe she gained the powers of her alter ego... So heck there's an entire universe of people from 616 that are even completely depowered... So how do u compare...
Originally posted by zopzop
What If's ARE canon. How did the Starbrand get into the 616 universe? I'll tell you how, Quasar was blasted into the Starbrand multiverse by a What If version of Maelstrom and found his way back.
So because Maelstrom blasted Quasar into the multiverse, it makes that Maelstrom's powers and history canonical to the powers and history of the Maelstrom of mainstream universe? Lol.
No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.
What If's are ALTERNATE universes. That issue of Quasar made it clear. In these ALTERNATE universes we've seen the PF pwn a universe using nothing but it's OWN power, TWICE. Show me where any other being has done that on panel. That's what I'm asking you.
And what does that universe's Phoenix have to do with mainstreams? Show me where a What If PF applies to this fight? Who cares if a What If version did it. It's feat don't apply to mainstream Phoenix.
HOM Wanda.
And the IG in that universe fought THE ENTIRE CELESTIAL RACE, not merely a host. Not just 2 of them. The IG in 616 fought : Galactus, Love/Hate, Order/Chaos, Stranger, Eon, and TWO Celestials. My money's on the ENTIRE Celestial being greater than the power assembled in 616 to fight the IG.
WoW, the entire Celestial race is made up of 5 Celestials? I thought that be more. That "race" is less than the 4th Host that showed up on Earth.
Your money means nothing because Death, Galactus, The One Above All Celesials, Ziran, Stranger, Chaos, Order, Love, and Hate were all there and got stomped. That's more power than 5 Celestials.
The writers through the years have made it clear that the PF is at least capable of universal destruction. We have a "canon" reference by the Watcher that the PF is second only to the Creator in power. We have "canon" references by BOTH Death AND Galactus that the PF will/can destroy all that is AND bring about new life from that destruction.
We have canon evidence that Odin is omnipotent when he's not. We have feats of him destroying galaxies to shaking the multiverse. But truth is he isn't omnipotent. Lol. Phoenix never came close to destroying a universe. Don't you understand that? The Phoenix Force isn't comparable to the IG so how can it be second to the creator? It's nothing but a parrot to the Living Tribunal who shut down the Gauntlet's attack in a second.
And yet he NEVER destroyed a universe on panel did he? Aside from the PF and the UN/HotI, this is the best example you can give because you know such a feat is a rarity. In both 616 and alternative universes. The fact that the PF has been shown doing it twice (that I can recall) is lost on you.
Aside from what Phoenix feat? You that What If that's not relevant to mainstream Phoenix? Lol. So said you have nothing to prove your claims.
Another thing the PF has stopped a super massive black hole from destroying the universe before it's called the Neutron Galaxy contained in the M'kran Crystal. So it's been there and done that.
It's been there because it's the guardian of that crystal. It's done what it's meant to do. So what? In fact, before all this bullshit about the PF being the sum of life unborn and ressurrection force nonsense later on, it's sole purpose was the guardian of the crystal. So it stopped what it was created to do. It's never destroyed a universe in mainstream. Infinity wins.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[So because Maelstrom blasted Quasar into the multiverse, it makes that Maelstrom's powers and history canonical to the powers and history of the Maelstrom of mainstream universe? Lol.
No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.
Maelstrom was going toe to toe vs Thanos with the IG. You make of that what you will. It was an ALTERNATIVE universe in which Quasar failed to stop Maelstrom.
And what does that universe's Phoenix have to do with mainstreams? Show me where a What If PF applies to this fight? Who cares if a What If version did it. It's feat don't apply to mainstream Phoenix.HOM Wanda.
What If's are ALTERNATE universes do you understand? The writers obviously believed the PF to be capable of universe level destruction because they wrote it that way not once but twice and from different decades.
HOM Wanda? Please check the Phoenix respect thread and see why this is actually a feat for the PF.
WoW, the entire Celestial race is made up of 5 Celestials? I thought that be more. That "race" is less than the 4th Host that showed up on Earth.Your money means nothing because Death, Galactus, The One Above All Celesials, Ziran, Stranger, Chaos, Order, Love, and Hate were all there and got stomped. That's more power than 5 Celestials.
Did you even read the issue? Doom stated they ALL came but in waves. Wave after wave until they all died and the Gems were exhausted of power and destroyed! Their ENTIRE race vs the IG + Beyonder's power.
We have canon evidence that Odin is omnipotent when he's not. We have feats of him destroying galaxies to shaking the multiverse. But truth is he isn't omnipotent. Lol. Phoenix never came close to destroying a universe. Don't you understand that? The Phoenix Force isn't comparable to the IG so how can it be second to the creator? It's nothing but a parrot to the Living Tribunal who shut down the Gauntlet's attack in a second.Aside from what Phoenix feat? You that What If that's not relevant to mainstream Phoenix? Lol. So said you have nothing to prove your claims.
Odin KNEELED before Arshiem in humiliation. Jean with a SLIVER of the PF blew off Arshiem's hand (the one that judges worlds).
It's been there because it's the guardian of that crystal. It's done what it's meant to do. So what? In fact, before all this bullshit about the PF being the sum of life unborn and ressurrection force nonsense later on, it's sole purpose was the guardian of the crystal. So it stopped what it was created to do. It's never destroyed a universe in mainstream. Infinity wins.
Jean using the PF has held an entire universe in the palm of her hands. Infinity gets crushed LITERALLY.
The PF held back the power of the Neutron Galaxy that's within the M'kran Crystal. Imagine Maelstrom's super massive black hole. That's what Jean saved the universe from.
And I'm STILL waiting for a universal destruction feat not using a plot device in either 616 or any alternate universe.
Phoenix doesnt need to be depicted on panel destroying a universe when she has feats which place her beyond simple universal destruction.
Manipulating the atomic structure of the entire universe as we saw in New X-men 154 is a faaaar greater feat than simply blowing a universe apart. Takes considerably more power and a higher level of finesse and control. This feat was performed by just one of the hosts Phoenix was empowering at the time showing you the Forces power is faaar greater than any universal force or artifact.
Furthermore the fact that it is stated time and time again that the Phoenix is the Big Bang, that she is the power source behind the stars, the sum and substance of all that is shows you that by its very nature it is quite capable of at least universal destruction. Dont be so fallacious WhiteWitchKing. 👇
