Originally posted by zopzop
Where was the Goblin Force? Where was Seis-Neg? Where was Shuma-Gorath? Where was the Vishanti? Where were the Infinites? Where was the rest of the Celestial race? What does this prove? That Eon > Vishanti? Two Celestials > The Goblin Force?
Goblin Force didn't make it's appearance in a book till years later. Starlin's suppose to put in a character that didn't exist when he wrote the book?
Seis-Neg dispersed himself when he created the big bang. You expect him to show up when exploded himself to recreate the big bang and bring about the universe?
The Infinites came years later too.
The Celestial Race? Who needs the Celestial race when they're merely creations Eternity dreamed into existence. That first assault was a distract for Surfer to steal the gauntlet. Did you read the story?
It proves you don't know what you're talking about. Stop reading from scans. It proves that Eternity/Infinty is the highest of the cosmic order. Even Thanos mentions this after defeating all of Eternity's lackeys.
Also the difference between Eternity (and all his titles) and the PF, is that we actually SEEN its power in action. In this and alternate universes. All we have to go by in Eternity/Infinity's case is hype.
What power did it display again? You keep saying that but you've provided no feat. As for alternate universes, you seem to have a hard time with forum rules huh? You can't even grasp concept of What If books.
Hype? Eternity/Infinity beat Magus with power enough to merge two universes. Power greater than the 6 cosmic containment unit he had wielded. Phoenix fought who again? You mean the Goblin Force which consumed it? That time when it downed Galactus temporarily? Since you're bringing in What Ifs, why don't you bring in Cross Overs as feat proof as well. Why bother with forum rules.
Ask the writers? It's right there in black and white that he was only to separate the PF from it's host and return it to the cosmos. Because it's not like it's been hostless before or anything 🙄
It's right there in the pages before that. He's trying to destroy the Force. Why would he return the Force to the cosmos? And why would seperating the Force from it's host destroy the cosmos and break the Eternal pattern? I know you get your info from mostly scans but do you ever stopped to think about your argument? If it's been hostless before, how come it didn't destroy the cosmos but would this time around?
I have in two separate alternate universes. Now show my any other of the abstracts you've mentioned doing the same. GS showed you her man-handling a universe in the palm of her hands
What Ifs don't count. You don't understand forum rules huh? Lol. GS showed a picture of her holding a representation of the universe, not the actual universe. Jean than psychically fixed the future by changing Scott's mind and pushing him to Emma IN THE PAST. This prevents the dark outcome of Here Comes Tomorrow. Jeez, this is how you debate? Maybe if you read the book we'd have an actual debate. Kubik has held a universe in his hand. A Watcher stored a universe in his chest. All are below Eternity.
The most RECENT info has the Gems drawing their power from the Big Bang (confirmed by Adam Warlock on panel and Champion's bio). We have Reed Richards calling the PF just another name for the Big Bang. Put two and two together.
Lol. Because when the Infinity Being destroyed itself and exploded the universe he wasn't creating a Big Bang huh? Seis-Neg didn't recreate a big bang when he went back to the past huh? You think they just died and the cosmos grew like mold slowly? We have the Stranger calling it the Ressurrection Force. We have Death mention it as part of the eternal pattern of the universe. No where do we have it being placed as the creator or power source for everyone else. Because every time the universe is reborn, what sound and event do you think occurs if not a big bang? But it's not the being who created the first big bang that brought everything into existence. Hence why, no ones ever referred to it as the creator or the mother/source of all abstracts.
Aww isn't that cute 😄 When's its birthday? We'll throw it a surprise party.
The same day as that of Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, and the other primal forces.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Goblin Force didn't make it's appearance in a book till years later. Starlin's suppose to put in a character that didn't exist when he wrote the book?Seis-Neg dispersed himself when he created the big bang. You expect him to show up when exploded himself to recreate the big bang and bring about the universe?
The Infinites came years later too.
The Celestial Race? Who needs the Celestial race when they're merely creations Eternity dreamed into existence. That first assault was a distract for Surfer to steal the gauntlet. Did you read the story?
It proves you don't know what you're talking about. Stop reading from scans. It proves that Eternity/Infinty is the highest of the cosmic order. Even Thanos mentions this after defeating all of Eternity's lackeys.
You know very well what I mean. There were cosmics that were left out of the whole "Infinity XXX" mess. Where was the In-betweener? Oblivion? Infinity? The Vishanti? And others I'm sure I'm leaving out.
Just because an abstract/cosmic is left out of a storyline doesn't diminish their power or importance.
What power did it display again? You keep saying that but you've provided no feat. As for alternate universes, you seem to have a hard time with forum rules huh? You can't even grasp concept of What If books.Hype? Eternity/Infinity beat Magus with power enough to merge two universes. Power greater than the 6 cosmic containment unit he had wielded. Phoenix fought who again? You mean the Goblin Force which consumed it? That time when it downed Galactus temporarily? Since you're bringing in What Ifs, why don't you bring in Cross Overs as feat proof as well. Why bother with forum rules.
The forum rules don't mean jack when the WRITERS themselves say otherwise. The "What Ifs" are ALTERNATE universes that can and have affected 616 reality. See Quasar and the Starbrand. See the whole Time Quake fiasco.
You still cannot show me an example of universal level destruction (baring a plot device like the HotI and the UN) on panel because you're full of it. The PF has done it.
The only thing we've seen Eternity do in 616 is blow up a planet while trying to kill Thanos. We haven't seen Infinity do much of anything.
It's right there in the pages before that. He's trying to destroy the Force. Why would he return the Force to the cosmos? And why would seperating the Force from it's host destroy the cosmos and break the Eternal pattern? I know you get your info from mostly scans but do you ever stopped to think about your argument? If it's been hostless before, how come it didn't destroy the cosmos but would this time around?
GS provided the scan. It says it right there in black and white. You got counter proof? Post it.
What Ifs don't count. You don't understand forum rules huh? Lol. GS showed a picture of her holding a representation of the universe, not the actual universe. Jean than psychically fixed the future by changing Scott's mind and pushing him to Emma IN THE PAST. This prevents the dark outcome of Here Comes Tomorrow. Jeez, this is how you debate? Maybe if you read the book we'd have an actual debate. Kubik has held a universe in his hand. A Watcher stored a universe in his chest. All are below Eternity.
Kubik wrecked Beyonder's POCKET DIMENSION. The Watcher had a MICRO UNIVERSE in his chest. Not exactly the same thing.
Lol. Because when the Infinity Being destroyed itself and exploded the universe he wasn't creating a Big Bang huh? Seis-Neg didn't recreate a big bang when he went back to the past huh? You think they just died and the cosmos grew like mold slowly? We have the Stranger calling it the Ressurrection Force. We have Death mention it as part of the eternal pattern of the universe. No where do we have it being placed as the creator or power source for everyone else. Because every time the universe is reborn, what sound and event do you think occurs if not a big bang? But it's not the being who created the first big bang that brought everything into existence. Hence why, no ones ever referred to it as the creator or the mother/source of all abstracts.
The Watcher referred to the PF as second only to the Creator. The scans GS posted have both Adam Warlock and Champion saying the IG's are powered by the Big Bang. We have Reed saying the Big Bang is just another name for the PF. You figure it out.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
GS showed a picture of her holding a representation of the universe, not the actual universe. Jean than psychically fixed the future by changing Scott's mind and pushing him to Emma IN THE PAST. This prevents the dark outcome of Here Comes Tomorrow.
Nope. Clear as day its stated that Jean is holding the universe in her hand and is manipulating it in its entirety down to an atomic level. No mention of it being a representation is made and for what reason would the Phoenixes most powerful avatar be told its not easy and she needs to focus to generate a palm sized hologram? 🙄
Your argument reeks of desperation 😆
Immediately before Jean materialized the universe in the palm of her hand, she amputates the HCT timeline from the multiverse. A feat she does casually, an on panel NON WHAT IF feat of destruction far greater than the destruction of a mere universe. You have nothing. 👇
Furthermore, this very feat gives precedence for the scope of power she displays in the M'kraan crystal, the materialization of 616 in her palm.
So your ridiculous argument that she could only do this feat in the crystal gets flushed down the toilet also 🙂
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The same day as that of Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, and the other primal forces.
Born at the same time but the difference is what they are comparatively. Phoenix is the actual living energies of the Big Bang whose sentience awakened after the creation event. The abstracts are concepts who were given meaning by the Big Bang, it put in place and created the very concepts that they embody.
So whilst the Phoenix may not have created the Big Bang and was in fact itself created by TOAA, it IS the Big Bang. No one is arguing that it is the creator so your persistence on saying that Eternity and the abstracts were created in this event is a redundant point. They are derivatives of the Big Bang. The Phoenix Force IS the Big Bang whose sentience was awakened in the event.
BIG difference 😄
Originally posted by rotiart
And nemesis was all things prior to the big bang... And gave way to all thing currently
And the power gem is his/hers power...
:-P
So the power gem wins
Except there was a retcon which states that the gems power source is the Big Bang as i have shown on panel statements and handbook references of to verify 🙂
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So explain why those references to what it is outweight the numerous references to it being from the I.B.
Its a recent retcon thats happened in the last few years, therefore considering the original IG stories came out 20 years ago theres obviously going to be more references to the pre-retcon gems.
This stands to reason 😬
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not by current continuity.Adam Warlock longtime gem wielder and onetime wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet and therefore a very reputable source said that the true source of the gems powers was the Big Bang-
and the Champion longtime wielder of the Power Gems bio supported this by making reference to the gems drawing power from the Big Bang-
these are the most recent references to the Infinity Gems power source in current continuity. There has been a retcon.
Originally posted by rotiart
Adam is speaking as he is going into a cocoon.
The bio states that it is "allegedly" the same as the power primordial..Having a similar source or nature does not make them equivalent.
Adam is a long time wielder of the gem and he also wielded the Infinity Gauntlet so he is a very reputable source.
Furthermore the gem and the Phoenix Force dont have the same source. The gems tap into the Big Bang, the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. Thats different.
Maybe you want to direct that statement at the gems and an avatar of the Phoenix Force, then it would make more sense. 😬
Originally posted by rotiart
You say the big bang is the pf. I say it is still the I.b. Energies and that the gems tap into his power. His power being called the power primordial.Phoenix may represent that power but the gems still utilize it.
There are far more references to the Phoenix Force being called the Big Bang and such references have been consistent throughout its existence and remain the case in current continuity.
So your theory about a being unheard of in the 2000's, in fact unreferenced since the mid 90's is weak. 😬
The Power Primordials power source is the Big Bang.
The Phoenix Force throughout continuity, according to cosmics and reputable characters like Reed Richards is the Big Bang. 🙂
Originally posted by rotiart
Btw during the original infinity quest saga it talks about how the I.b. Suicide gave birth to everything. Ie. Big bang.
The Infinity Being was retconned from the being whose death gave rise to everything and therefore was essentially the Big Bang:
To just a powerful being who was a resident of the universe who had nothing to do with making the universe, but whose death created the gems:
Ultraforce/Avengers crossover
90's style marvel handbook-
To the gems having the Big Bang as their power source:
That is the most recent reference to the gems nature in continuity, so regardless of whether you favor this interpretation or not, we go by official sources here and current continuity. 🙂
Originally posted by rotiart
Actually your argument that there was a retcon that changes the I.b.s standing in marvel is weak as there was no actual mention of a change to the history and it was simply your inference of the fact even those there was no actual evidence.
No evidence? 😕
There has been a gradual retcon since the early 90's interpretation.
Current continuity states quite clearly that the gems tap into the Big Bang as their power source.
Current continuity has the gems powerless outside their native universe showing a reliance on their universal power source
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Continuity has consistently depicted the Phoenix Force as the living Big Bang that gained sentience, the very creation energies that give life to reality and power the stars:
Living Big Bang
Sum and substance of all that is and the creator of the stars
Straight up statement that it is the Big Bang
No more needs to be said. 🙂
Originally posted by illadelph12
So the Phoenix Force is just the Firestorm Matrix in bird form...Interesting...
meanfox
At a universal level yeah 😛
But its also stated in the latest handbook to the multiversal nexus of psionic energy and it can power avatars to manipulate the atoms of the universe with ease and amputate timelines, so the Big Bang is just one of its titles 😉
