Originally posted by Black bolt zSS can't teleport someone's molecules apart. He can blast someone apart though.
Yes surfer would do that to manhattan.And he would ue the power cosmic to change their polarity(I think thats the right word)so he can't reform.
Assuming he can then Dr. M just reforms. Or better yet, SS would have to deal with millions and millions of Dr. Ms after the bell.
Originally posted by h1a8Prove manhattan can make more then 3 of himself.You can't not enough feats.
SS can't teleport someone's molecules apart. He can blast someone apart though.Assuming he can then Dr. M just reforms. Or better yet, SS would have to deal with millions and millions of Dr. Ms after the bell.
Originally posted by h1a8
I define fight as it is relevant to a FORUM FIGHT. The circumstances have to relevant to project the feat to the forum fight. For, example Dr. Strange has been shown to chant spells with full sentences while the other character just sat there and waited (not even attacked) on panel. But in a forum fight against someone who can attack fast this will not happen. Both were fights, according to Webster, but one is not considered a fight in the definition of FORUM FIGHT. The point is SS can't practically do it here since he would leave his body exposed.Dr. M has at least a tactic that can end Surfer in less than a few seconds, no matter how good SS's durability is.
I'm arguing both because if I'm defeated at the SS winning by going to the Astral plane then I still have the he's leaving the battlefield argument. One or the other is valid (not both necessarily). Either SS body get's destroyed and he beats Dr. M in the Astral plane (at most both lose, at least SS loses) OR he can't leave to go to the Astral Plane as that is self BFR.
I would like to know what other feats support SS just leaving his body on a dime and going to the Astral plane to attack something.
And again, I'm not saying the tactic would necessesarily be effective against Dr. M specifically, this whole thing started because you said...
Originally posted by h1a8
I haven't ignore them. SS simply can't do such things to beings in a fight. If I'm wrong them prove me wrong.
Um no... one of those options doesn't have to be valid. His body can still be present on the battlefield without his opponent being able to destroy it before they lose the fight. And yet AGAIN, I'm not arguing that the tactic would be effective against Manhattan(who may or may not be able to combat it), I'm arguing that he can and has used the tactic on panel.
He's taken off to the Astral Plane to help the Puppet Master when he was near death before, supporting his ability to get there and interact with others. Now what has Manhattan done to support his being able to resist an attack from the astral plane?
Originally posted by h1a8
Teleport his molecules apart.
Originally posted by h1a8
It was a logical proof. There is proof by showing what happened (as in scans) and there is logical proof.
Originally posted by h1a8
Being stated is not the same as being shown. A statement to be accepted has to be acceptable. Surfer posing a threat to Galactus is hogwash. Also you just can't state these things without scans. You must post scans for various reasons.
Originally posted by Ambient
lol.. Shouldn't that be the other way around..Yes it has been stated/implied on panel and what the heck does Drax defeating Thanos got to do with energy manipulation, i am quite in a loss there..
Bingo..
You should apply that to the point your trying to put across, so rather than speculate regarding Dr. M suppose implied power set put up some factual feats otherwise your just making a fool of yourself..
Manhattan gets mindraped for an easy win..
H1 stop trolling. Manhattan vs surfer is definitely not easy win if it's even possible... D_dude no winner can be declared b/c Manhattans feat list is all of 2 inches give or take an inch depending on font size... Stop saying Manhattan would get mindraped. Ozzy never even bothered with trying to use telepaths /psychic effects to blast him and if he could spend his time developing big monster alien things to trick the world then coming up with something better than vision blocking Manhattan to stop him seems like something he should have looked into.
You can call no limits fallacy and it still doesn't change the fact that the character doesn't have the depth to say that he has any limits beyond what he imposes on himself or believes so just give it up already and let the argument die and for the idiot who's gonna say that he failed to block the nukes....
Again it was based on the belief of Dr. Manhattan that he was going to fail because he saw his vision of the future was blocked and as far as he was aware the only thing that could have done such a thing was nuclear war. Ozzy couldn't know no matter what anyone says as NO ONE is exactly sure of Johns limits just that he is absurdly powerful. There just isn't anyone for him to compare against. Hell he decides he is going to play god and create life on a whimsical thought in the end. So please tell me why any of this discussion is going to go anywhere when there isn't enough information to make any kind of decision.
Also for the person arguing that some character would be immune to MM because he hasn't encountered someone with that power being logic for John being unable to block TP... MM will kill just about any mortal character. Telepathy can be blocked by an absurd amount of things in an absurd number of ways. Storm blocks TP with static electricity for crying out loud despite TP being assumed to be less of a physical thing than spiritual. Who's to say Manhattan couldn't at the very least do something like that or the fact that he is at the very least a being of consciousness be able to repel any psychic attack. He is still conscious despite being atomized and essentially removed from existence.
Originally posted by Uriel005
H1 stop trolling. Manhattan vs surfer is definitely not easy win if it's even possible... D_dude no winner can be declared b/c Manhattans feat list is all of 2 inches give or take an inch depending on font size... Stop saying Manhattan would get mindraped. Ozzy never even bothered with trying to use telepaths /psychic effects to blast him and if he could spend his time developing big monster alien things to trick the world then coming up with something better than vision blocking Manhattan to stop him seems like something he should have looked into.You can call no limits fallacy and it still doesn't change the fact that the character doesn't have the depth to say that he has any limits beyond what he imposes on himself or believes so just give it up already and let the argument die and for the idiot who's gonna say that he failed to block the nukes....
Again it was based on the belief of Dr. Manhattan that he was going to fail because he saw his vision of the future was blocked and as far as he was aware the only thing that could have done such a thing was nuclear war. Ozzy couldn't know no matter what anyone says as NO ONE is exactly sure of Johns limits just that he is absurdly powerful. There just isn't anyone for him to compare against. Hell he decides he is going to play god and create life on a whimsical thought in the end. So please tell me why any of this discussion is going to go anywhere when there isn't enough information to make any kind of decision.
Also for the person arguing that some character would be immune to MM because he hasn't encountered someone with that power being logic for John being unable to block TP... MM will kill just about any mortal character. Telepathy can be blocked by an absurd amount of things in an absurd number of ways. Storm blocks TP with static electricity for crying out loud despite TP being assumed to be less of a physical thing than spiritual. Who's to say Manhattan couldn't at the very least do something like that or the fact that he is at the very least a being of consciousness be able to repel any psychic attack. He is still conscious despite being atomized and essentially removed from existence.
no limits fallacy yet agaiinnn.
and yes, based on existing feats, Surfer beats Dr M and saying that "he's never tested the limits of his abilities" is fail no limits fallacy logic.
a fallacy is still a fallacy. means your logic fails.
i don't know why you bother. rules of debating states that you HAVE to prove your claims based on facts.
absence of it makes your claim groundless, especially under the weight of evidence that proves otherwise.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
no limits fallacy yet agaiinnn.and yes, based on existing feats, Surfer beats Dr M and saying that "he's never tested the limits of his abilities" is fail no limits fallacy logic.
a fallacy is still a fallacy. means your logic fails.
i don't know why you bother. rules of debating states that you HAVE to prove your claims based on facts.
absence of it makes your claim groundless, especially under the weight of evidence that proves otherwise.
Ok and for proving facts. Prove that TP would work on Manhattan. TP is established as a force in Watchmen and the smartest man in the world doesn't even bother to use it on John. A guy whose spent decades trying to come up with a weakness on him. Prove anything the surfer would do would effect John in any way.
D_dude stop baiting and asking for proof it's been established that you can't get your proof just as you can't prove surfer would be able to do anything to John because unlike other high tier characters who have for the most part faced similar attacks to what the surfer has can be judged based on other showings to high end astral effects, or psychic effects. John has no such things, no enemies. Many effects have been measured on other high end characters and the only argument on whether the surfer would be able to do such a thing to them is based on how they have fared against similar attacks. John has no such thing so it's useless.
Anyways I'm done with this discussion as it's apparent to me that you can't wrap your head around the idea that you can't prove anything the surfer could do would effect John and wouldn't be stopped by his teleport, ability to construct himself out of nothing or even if his consciousness can be effected. When he was utterly destroyed what happened to his consciousness. Did it become omniversally aware as his atoms spread throughout wherever ozzy dispersed them. Or did he just kinda stay localized. IF he stayed localized was it because he didn't care to check if he could expand or is it established that he can't.
The answer is you can't for all your surfer wanking you cannot for the life of you prove anything that would effect Dr. Manhattan. And before you say burden of proof. Once again it's impossible there just isn't any feats list for Manhattan unlike the surfer which by now is about 10 miles long.
Originally posted by Uriel005
wow you missed the point of that didn't you.... yet again my point is that the whole argument is useless unless Manhattan has a feats list longer than an inch.Ok and for proving facts. Prove that TP would work on Manhattan. TP is established as a force in Watchmen and the smartest man in the world doesn't even bother to use it on John. A guy whose spent decades trying to come up with a weakness on him. Prove anything the surfer would do would effect John in any way.
D_dude stop baiting and asking for proof it's been established that you can't get your proof just as you can't prove surfer would be able to do anything to John because unlike other high tier characters who have for the most part faced similar attacks to what the surfer has can be judged based on other showings to high end astral effects, or psychic effects. John has no such things, no enemies. Many effects have been measured on other high end characters and the only argument on whether the surfer would be able to do such a thing to them is based on how they have fared against similar attacks. John has no such thing so it's useless.
Anyways I'm done with this discussion as it's apparent to me that you can't wrap your head around the idea that you can't prove anything the surfer could do would effect John and wouldn't be stopped by his teleport, ability to construct himself out of nothing or even if his consciousness can be effected. When he was utterly destroyed what happened to his consciousness. Did it become omniversally aware as his atoms spread throughout wherever ozzy dispersed them. Or did he just kinda stay localized. IF he stayed localized was it because he didn't care to check if he could expand or is it established that he can't.
The answer is you can't for all your surfer wanking you cannot for the life of you prove anything that would effect Dr. Manhattan. And before you say burden of proof. Once again it's impossible there just isn't any feats list for Manhattan unlike the surfer which by now is about 10 miles long.
Originally posted by Uriel005
wow you missed the point of that didn't you.... yet again my point is that the whole argument is useless unless Manhattan has a feats list longer than an inch.Ok and for proving facts. Prove that TP would work on Manhattan. TP is established as a force in Watchmen and the smartest man in the world doesn't even bother to use it on John. A guy whose spent decades trying to come up with a weakness on him. Prove anything the surfer would do would effect John in any way.
D_dude stop baiting and asking for proof it's been established that you can't get your proof just as you can't prove surfer would be able to do anything to John because unlike other high tier characters who have for the most part faced similar attacks to what the surfer has can be judged based on other showings to high end astral effects, or psychic effects. John has no such things, no enemies. Many effects have been measured on other high end characters and the only argument on whether the surfer would be able to do such a thing to them is based on how they have fared against similar attacks. John has no such thing so it's useless.
Anyways I'm done with this discussion as it's apparent to me that you can't wrap your head around the idea that you can't prove anything the surfer could do would effect John and wouldn't be stopped by his teleport, ability to construct himself out of nothing or even if his consciousness can be effected. When he was utterly destroyed what happened to his consciousness. Did it become omniversally aware as his atoms spread throughout wherever ozzy dispersed them. Or did he just kinda stay localized. IF he stayed localized was it because he didn't care to check if he could expand or is it established that he can't.
The answer is you can't for all your surfer wanking you cannot for the life of you prove anything that would effect Dr. Manhattan. And before you say burden of proof. Once again it's impossible there just isn't any feats list for Manhattan unlike the surfer which by now is about 10 miles long.
Accusing ppl of wanking, are we? A bit hypocrtical isn't it?
The only person wanking a character here is you (h1 is just being h1: a troll). And I know he's naked and everything, doesn't mean u gotta wank im... :-/
No limits fallacy. Burden of proof. On panel showings >>> Implied power. Top feats of Surfer >>> Top feats of Dr M. Can't prove a negative. You're guilty of all of these, the fact that you chose to ignore the flaws of your argumentation just kinda shows where and by who the wanking here is.
Some characters have less showings than Dr M but can still be debated at being able to perform at herald level or beyond. Dr M is not one of them.
You fail in every one of these points.
All you got is: There isn't enough proof BS w/c really doesn't help you in any shape or form, yet you keep insisting BS crap. :-/
Not wanking I said that its likely that its not possible for Manhattan to beat surfer I just said that for anyone to make a definitive decision saying that it's impossible for Manhattan to win he would need to have some kind of feats list. Something that shows a weak showing or anything that could be used as an actual method to defeat him. No one here can prove that anything would actually work on him so as I've said before he's a bad character to use.
Also for characters with limited feats. Like the LT the few feats he does have are feats of WTF. Lets hold Thanos in the palm of your hand after he owns Eternity and make him look like a bug. Right that sure doesn't say anything on how LT would do against herald level characters. Most of the others with limited feats usually have something similar on there that indicate their potential. Again John has nothing like it. Also you accuse H1 of trolling which he is but I've yet to see you do anything but demand proof which I have repeatedly say doesn't exist and refuse to in turn come up with proof that what the surfer could do would work on Manhattan. Find some proof for me that Manhattan can be beaten as he is. Some kind of weakness to an energy form/ energy drain, matter manipulation, TP etc etc. because I sure as heck can't find anything one way or another.
Originally posted by Uriel005
Not wanking I said that its likely that its not possible for Manhattan to beat surfer I just said that for anyone to make a definitive decision saying that it's impossible for Manhattan to win he would need to have some kind of feats list. Something that shows a weak showing or anything that could be used as an actual method to defeat him. No one here can prove that anything would actually work on him so as I've said before he's a bad character to use.Also for characters with limited feats. Like the LT the few feats he does have are feats of WTF. Lets hold Thanos in the palm of your hand after he owns Eternity and make him look like a bug. Right that sure doesn't say anything on how LT would do against herald level characters. Most of the others with limited feats usually have something similar on there that indicate their potential. Again John has nothing like it. Also you accuse H1 of trolling which he is but I've yet to see you do anything but demand proof which I have repeatedly say doesn't exist and refuse to in turn come up with proof that what the surfer could do would work on Manhattan. Find some proof for me that Manhattan can be beaten as he is. Some kind of weakness to an energy form/ energy drain, matter manipulation, TP etc etc. because I sure as heck can't find anything one way or another.
Originally posted by King Kandy
So basically, because nobody beat him, you suggest that nobody CAN beat him. This is a fallacy, so it cannot be your argument.
Not saying nobody can beat him just saying that I don't know what it would take and neither does anyone else here because in the Watchmen he was the only high tier character the closest character by comparison for him is Ozzy who could be compared to someone like Reed w/out powers.
Originally posted by Uriel005Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ozy.
Not saying nobody can beat him just saying that I don't know what it would take and neither does anyone else here because in the Watchmen he was the only high tier character the closest character by comparison for him is Ozzy who could be compared to someone like Reed w/out powers.