Sersi Vs Dr Manhatten Vs Silver Surfer

Originally posted by h1a8
Seeing Surfer's body doesn't make him in the battlefield just as seeing someone in a crystal ball don't make you at that location.

Stop trying to change/misrepresent what the artwork is CLEARLY showing.

Artwork showing that they're occupying the same location therefore the same battlefield. Sad attempts at misrepresenting the facts, notwithstanding.

Originally posted by h1a8
The quote by Digi is not in the forum rules, as you suggested.

Except for the fact that it is:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html

Amendment:

Concerning the Battlefield
Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

OMG! Please reread the rules portion. This is getting embarassing.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have to provide a scan when something only requires deductive reasoning.

You really don't see the hypocrisy here with you asking for MULTIPLE scans of Surfer's exotic powers?

Also, one doesn't use deductive reasoning to come up with BS powers. One uses scans. Otherwise, characters with powers that show vast versatility can be claimed to be able to do anything. Which actually helps my debate and not yours.

Lemme use your logic here:

The Power Cosmic has been shown to be able to do anything. Thus, by deductive reasoning, Surfer can simply tear Dr M's consciousness apart and send it across the multiverse.

See how much that made sense?

You need scans/feats before you can make claims. I'm trying to be as patient as possible with you here, but you're just degenerated into making up false rules, making up false abilities and downright making stuff up.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman receiving help is irrelevant. Thus why should I mention it?

Except for the fact that it is.

Originally posted by h1a8
To prove that more powerful will always net one the majority then you must prove for all cases. I can prove likewise by simply showing a counterexample. Thus being more powerful is irrelevant.

Now you're strawmanning me and misrepresenting the sequence of the debate. You were the one who made the claim that being powerful is irrelevant and I was the one who provided the counterexample that proved that power plays a large role in a VS fight. Thus proving that power IS relevant and proving your statement false.

This is really pathetic h1a8. Shows how low you sink just to keep the debate going. You're not even proving anything wrong, just twisting facts and making up false claims now. Really pathetic.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm right about the spirit of the rules though. Everyone here knows why leaving the battlefield was put in as a rule.

Except that I'm right about it not applying to Astral form attack.

Originally posted by h1a8
And with the laughing last part there is no contradiction in what I said. You misquoted me as well. I didn't say some of those things. You did.

I placed quotes but I wasn't "quoting" you in the last portion of my reply (one would think that would be pretty obvious). In an effort to make YOU understand how sad you're argument has become, I simplified your statements and pointed out their meanings to show how you're already contradicting yourself.

Originally posted by h1a8
Oh I didn't dodge you. I just didn't have time to respond to your long reply, only the short ones.

Except for the fact that you failed to address the majority of my debate. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
1:No its not leaving
2:Yes it would work on him(but there is no definitive way to see who would win)
3: He has used it enough to be valid.

So surfer just blasts him apart.Yes he can reform but then he can just blast him apart again.Same concept as beating someone with a high HF.

Yes it's leaving

It may or may not work on him. No one knows for sure.

No he hasn't. He only did this feat once.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes it's leaving

No it's not.

Originally posted by h1a8
It may or may not work on him. No one knows for sure.

He has no Mind/Soul resistance feats. Means that he would normally default to human level resistance (as his mind is still human even tho he can see and sense beyond what a human can). You talk about basic deduction. Deduce that.

Originally posted by h1a8
No he hasn't. He only did this feat once.

He did an Astral form attack 2x (once to destroy an opponent, the other to establish dominance on another). More times than your little "teleport apart" nonsense.

You REALLY don't see your hypocrisy here?

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes it's leaving

It may or may not work on him. No one knows for sure.

No he hasn't. He only did this feat once.

I agree with this.

Hes done it more then once.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
No its not.If hes still entering a nuetral realm and taking his opponent with him its fine.

I agree with this.

Hes done it more then once.

The battlefield is clearly defined in the forum rules (.5km away etc.)
Whether you take someone with you or not, you are still leaving the battlefield.

SS has left mid fight to attack the same one he was fighting ONLY ONCE.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Stop trying to change/misrepresent what the artwork is CLEARLY showing.

Artwork showing that they're occupying the same location therefore the same battlefield. Sad attempts at misrepresenting the facts, notwithstanding.

Except for the fact that it is:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html

[B]Amendment:

Concerning the Battlefield
Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

OMG! Please reread the rules portion. This is getting embarassing.

You really don't see the hypocrisy here with you asking for MULTIPLE scans of Surfer's exotic powers?

Also, one doesn't use deductive reasoning to come up with BS powers. One uses scans. Otherwise, characters with powers that show vast versatility can be claimed to be able to do anything. Which actually helps my debate and not yours.

Lemme use your logic here:

The Power Cosmic has been shown to be able to do anything. Thus, by deductive reasoning, Surfer can simply tear Dr M's consciousness apart and send it across the multiverse.

See how much that made sense?

You need scans/feats before you can make claims. I'm trying to be as patient as possible with you here, but you're just degenerated into making up false rules, making up false abilities and downright making stuff up.

Except for the fact that it is.

Now you're strawmanning me and misrepresenting the sequence of the debate. You were the one who made the claim that being powerful is irrelevant and I was the one who provided the counterexample that proved that power plays a large role in a VS fight. Thus proving that power IS relevant and proving your statement false.

This is really pathetic h1a8. Shows how low you sink just to keep the debate going. You're not even proving anything wrong, just twisting facts and making up false claims now. Really pathetic.

Except that I'm right about it not applying to Astral form attack.

I placed quotes but I wasn't "quoting" you in the last portion of my reply (one would think that would be pretty obvious). In an effort to make YOU understand how sad you're argument has become, I simplified your statements and pointed out their meanings to show how you're already contradicting yourself.

Except for the fact that you failed to address the majority of my debate. Concession accepted. [/B]

The ASTRAL PLANE is in a different dimension, hence the term 'PLANE' as in different plane of existence. This is common sense.

Actually Digi comments refers to having access to one's power, not being able to leave the battlefield.

The power cosmic hasn't been shown to be able do anything. Otherwise, we would have infinite showings.

I repeat, if Dr. M can control atoms (individually) and teleport them then he certainly can teleport atoms as well. This is deductive reasoning. No made up powers anywhere sir.

How can mentioning that Superman received help be relevant when my point was that he exerted over 50 Earth weights of force even assuming WITH HELP?

You made the first claim about being more powerful automatically nets you a win. I said, being more powerful is irrelevant. This is because other factors are required to win other than being more powerful. One can be more powerful yet lose because the weaker can exploit a key weakness.

I didn't contradict my self anywhere. I said strength was commutative and thus doesn't require the SAME feat to prove itself.
FORCE = FORCE.

the astral plane is "within" the normal universe, it's just only attainable by a psychic/magical enlightenment or being banished there.

you can't go there physically but your mind/spirit can go there, so in essence the battlefield isn't being abused, just the level of awareness

Originally posted by h1a8
The ASTRAL PLANE is in a different dimension, hence the term 'PLANE' as in different plane of existence. This is common sense.

Originally posted by h1a8
Actually Digi comments refers to having access to one's power, not being able to leave the battlefield.

Check and mate.

And what the hell does this have anything to do with leaving the battelfield? You made the claim that the Astral Plane wouldn't exist in a neutral universe. I simply refuted it via the rules.
Are you still reading here? It seems that you're having trouble following the debate. You might wanna take a breather. Looks like the discussion has reached a point where it's already beyond your ability to follow it.

Originally posted by h1a8
The power cosmic hasn't been shown to be able do anything. Otherwise, we would have infinite showings.

Originally posted by h1a8
I repeat, if Dr. M can control atoms (individually) and teleport them then he certainly can teleport atoms as well. This is deductive reasoning. No made up powers anywhere sir.

One's skill/talent/ability with ONE power/ability DOES NOT translate to his skill with another ability. Just because Dr M can manipulate and shape matter and can teleport himself and others doesn't mean that he can use the fine level of control that he has with his matter manipulation together with his teleportation. You NEED to prove this with showings.

Similar to when a great artist might have the ability to paint and has demonstrated the ability to write. Doesn't mean his penmanship will be the best anything special.

This whole reasoning is moot, tho, since you've never shown Dr M able to do this attack in the first place.

Originally posted by h1a8
How can mentioning that Superman received help be relevant when my point was that he exerted over 50 Earth weights of force even assuming WITH HELP?

Originally posted by h1a8
You made the first claim about being more powerful automatically nets you a win. I said, being more powerful is irrelevant. This is because other factors are required to win other than being more powerful. One can be more powerful yet lose because the weaker can exploit a key weakness.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't contradict my self anywhere. I said strength was commutative and thus doesn't require the SAME feat to prove itself.
FORCE = FORCE.

"Teleportation/matter manip is commutative so teleporting some1's molecules can be done!"
"Teleportation is NOT comutatitve!"
"Teleporting someone's molecules apart isn't matter manipulation!!"
"The fact that Dr M has fine control of subatomic particles (matter manip) AND can teleport ppl proves that he can teleport molecules apart!!!"

I actually UNDERLINED the portions of your posts that had these leaps of logic in them, I merely simplified them and placed them beside each other so you can actually see for yourself how badly you've screwed yourself over.

Also, now you're just being lazy. Time and again you've been ignoring the points that I've made that literally crushed your fail logic, THEN misrepresent what happened in order to avoid adressing them. Admit it, you've LOST, h1a8.

You've LOST.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
the astral plane is "within" the normal universe, it's just only attainable by a psychic/magical enlightenment or being banished there.

you can't go there physically but your mind/spirit can go there, so in essence the battlefield isn't being abused, just the level of awareness

NOW here's a guy who actually reads up on things before posting. 👆

I think h1 sees "plane" via it's AD&D definition (meaning another dimension). Shows where he gets his physics computations and overall logical deductive reasoning.

😆 😆

😆 @ H1 doesnt even know anything about the astral plane.

the astral plane is like the world of the matrix, just overlayed on the normal universe and you go there without the need to plug your brain into it.

it follows the same "rules" as the matrix and things and persons can be altered by the mind/spirit depending on their mastery, and everything is made of psionic energy or ectoplasm, one of those things.

it's that simple

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Try again. The concept of a plane sometimes (and for the purposes of this feat, it's VERY evident that it IS) refers to a a subtle state of consciousness.

EXACLTLY. Meaning that the Surfer would have all he needs to have access to his astral form attack power. Including the Astral Plane.

Check and mate.

And what the hell does this have anything to do with leaving the battelfield? You made the claim that the Astral Plane wouldn't exist in a neutral universe. I simply refuted it via the rules.
Are you still reading here? It seems that you're having trouble following the debate. You might wanna take a breather. Looks like the discussion has reached a point where it's already beyond your ability to follow it.

And Dr M hasn't been shown to teleport molecules. Get it now?

Lemme state it in words you can understand. Using the (fail) reasoning that you're used to spouting here. Ignoring the FACT that you NEED showings to prove anything.

One's skill/talent/ability with ONE power/ability DOES NOT translate to his skill with another ability. Just because Dr M can manipulate and shape matter and can teleport himself and others doesn't mean that he can use the fine level of control that he has with his matter manipulation together with his teleportation. You NEED to prove this with showings.

Similar to when a great artist might have the ability to paint and has demonstrated the ability to write. Doesn't mean his penmanship will be the best anything special.

This whole reasoning is moot, tho, since you've never shown Dr M able to do this attack in the first place.

The fact that you downright LIED that Superman has multiple planet pulling feats by omitting the fact that he had help?

Now this is a lie. Where did I ever indicate that being more powerful meant an autowin?

Why do you keep trying to misrepresent the debate? THESE are the examples of your self contradictions that I was making fun of:

"Teleportation/matter manip is commutative so teleporting some1's molecules can be done!"
"Teleportation is NOT comutatitve!"
"Teleporting someone's molecules apart isn't matter manipulation!!"
"The fact that Dr M has fine control of subatomic particles (matter manip) AND can teleport ppl proves that he can teleport molecules apart!!!"

I actually UNDERLINED the portions of your posts that had these leaps of logic in them, I merely simplified them and placed them beside each other so you can actually see for yourself how badly you've screwed yourself over.

Also, now you're just being lazy. Time and again you've been ignoring the points that I've made that literally crushed your fail logic, THEN misrepresent what happened in order to avoid adressing them. Admit it, you've LOST, h1a8.

You've LOST.

SS don't have the power since it is a exotic rare feat and thus PIS and he can't do it because it is leaving the battlefield.

Dr. M was shown to teleport molecules. Rethink it.

False, showings are just one type of proof. There are many ways to prove something. If I say prove that Hulk can lift a Ford Tractor, yet he has never been shown to do it, then you still can prove it. You would just use a deductive argument.

Lying implies intention. I said false things plenty of times, yet I never lied ever on this forum. I never intentionally gave false information on anything I posted. Thus I never lied. Superman having multiple planet pulling feats is a true statement. Doesn't matter if 'with help' was omitted, since the words are not false. I clearly wrote 'in the help' when I posted the calculation of the feat. If I lied, then I would have never posted that Superman received help in the calculation nor would I have used the same 50 Earth weights of force result (I would have used a much higher result).

And your simplification of my argument is wrong. I didn't say those things like that. I said, strength was commutative. Where do you get the other stuff from?

i'm going to start reporting this stuff soon

it's getting worse

Dr. M at least stalemates.

I just always laugh at h1's shit. Its best that way.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lying implies intention. I said false things plenty of times, yet I never lied ever on this forum. I never intentionally gave false information on anything I posted.

so what prey tell of all the stuff you've posted was proven false that you are aware of?

(i could just post a link to all your posts but you should be more specific)

Originally posted by h1a8
The Astral Plane is not the battlefield. The battlefield is the physical world in the dimension the characters are fighting on. It's against the spirit of the rules just to up and leave and go somewhere else and fight.

You're already beaten on your fail claims here. Insisting on it, doesn't really make things better.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS don't have the power since it is a exotic rare feat and thus PIS and he can't do it because it is leaving the battlefield..

Hahahaha. I beat your little "Astral Plane doesn't exist in a neutral universe" ruleslawyering and NOW you're back to insisting PIS (even though SS's has done it more than once) and the ALREADY defeated "It's BFR" fail logic.

Haha. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by h1a8
Dr. M was shown to teleport molecules. Rethink it.

He's teleported bodies that are composed of molecules, yes. But teleporting individual molecules? He's never shown this.

It's like saying that you can SEE bacteria because you see the bodies that bacteria inhabit.

Sheesh.

Originally posted by h1a8
False, showings are just one type of proof. There are many ways to prove something. If I say prove that Hulk can lift a Ford Tractor, yet he has never been shown to do it, then you still can prove it. You would just use a deductive argument.

Ah. Now you're attempting to do an apples and oranges comparison to try and draw a parallel between simple strength and the complex and completely different skillset required to teleport VAST numbers of extremely small (and highly durable and resistant) molecules apart.

Nice fail logic here yet againnnn.

Matter manipulation and teleportation require different skills. Unless you can prove that he has skills that shows him demonstrating the level of precision with his teleportation skills as he has with his matter manipulation, then all you got is BS.

The Surfer has been shown to open black holes and manipulate matter doesn't mean he can open multiple black holes in every molecule in an opponent's body.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lying implies intention. I said false things plenty of times, yet I never lied ever on this forum. I never intentionally gave false information on anything I posted. Thus I never lied. Superman having multiple planet pulling feats is a true statement. Doesn't matter if 'with help' was omitted, since the words are not false.

You intentionally omitted facts. Thus you lied.

You also continually misrepresent my replies and the flow of the debate. Thus you're either an idiot or a liar. I happen to believe it is a mix of the two.

You also claimed that you NEVER lie. That in itself is a lie.

But i guess since you're a troll, I guess honesty isn't really the point of your posting here.

Originally posted by h1a8
I clearly wrote 'in the help' when I posted the calculation of the feat. If I lied, then I would have never posted that Superman received help in the calculation nor would I have used the same 50 Earth weights of force result (I would have used a much higher result).

My reply was in response to you claiming IN THIS THREAD that Superman has SEVERAL planet pulling feats. You did not post any computations on this thread so I don't know WTF you're talking about on this reply.

Originally posted by h1a8
And your simplification of my argument is wrong. I didn't say those things like that. I said, strength was commutative. Where do you get the other stuff from?

If you're not going to go thru the statements I underlined in your reply, I'm not going to come back here and requote them. You're just being lazy now and not even having the decency to address my replies with individually now.

But I guess since you're a troll, decency really isn't really the point of your posting here.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You're already beaten on your fail claims here. Insisting on it, doesn't really make things better.

Hahahaha. I beat your little "Astral Plane doesn't exist in a neutral universe" ruleslawyering and NOW you're back to insisting PIS (even though SS's has done it more than once) and the ALREADY defeated "It's BFR" fail logic.

Haha. Concession accepted.

He's teleported bodies that are composed of molecules, yes. But teleporting individual molecules? He's never shown this.

It's like saying that you can SEE bacteria because you see the bodies that bacteria inhabit.

Sheesh.

You intentionally omitted facts. Thus you lied.

You also continually misrepresent my replies and the flow of the debate. Thus you're either an idiot or a liar. I happen to believe it is a mix of the two.

You also claimed that you NEVER lie. That in itself is a lie.

My reply was in response to you claiming IN THIS THREAD that Superman has SEVERAL planet pulling feats. You did not post any computations on this thread so I don't know WTF you're talking about on this reply.

If you're not going to go thru the statements I underlined in your reply, I'm not going to come back here and requote them. You're just being lazy now and not even having the decency to address my replies with individually now.

But I guess since you're a troll, decency really isn't really the point of your posting here.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's clear that SS can't do such things, against the rules and too rare of a feat,

Except for the times he has.

Not against the rules. Reread my arguments regarding BFR and ADDRESS them or concede.

Done multiple tiimes (w/ scans). Next.

Originally posted by h1a8
since this has never been argued against ANY herald level being SS has faced in a forum fight.

Just because it isn't argued against other herald levelrs doesn't make it invalid as a feat. What kind of retarded logic is that???

It's also rarely argued against herald levelers because many of them has SHOWN resistance to TP or Astral attack or can be dispatched by much simpler means. Tho I believe Surfer can easily combo to SCATTER Dr M due to his speed and superior power, your retarded argumentation that he can just replicate himself over and over again can easily be trumped by the Surfer pulling one PROVEN ability he's demonstrated more than once before.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes you beat it but you didn't beat the leaving the battlefield one or the too rare one.

Actually, I did. See previous posts pls.

Originally posted by h1a8
Dr. M can control sub atomic particles and molecules alike. His precision is at least to the sub atomic particle range.

In matter manipulation, NOT teleportation. You need to prove that he can PRECISELY teleport TINY OBJECTS and VAST NUMBERS.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is proven by him putting himself together and also in making his clones (molecule by molecule).
Thus he can do it.

Again, precision of one ability doesn't translate to another w/o proof. Where the hell do you learn your logic from?

Originally posted by h1a8
If not, then he can at least teleport small chunks of SS apart.

3 Things.
1) Won't do much to someone who can reform/manipulate his own body when needed.
2) His durability would allow him to tank it.
3) Is this BEFORE or AFTER Surfer combo to disperses him thru a speed blitz?

Originally posted by h1a8
I said I never lied ON THIS FORUM. Read my quote carefully. I was extra careful to state ON THIS FORUM because I have lied in general before.

You mean THIS quote?

Originally posted by h1a8
Post where I lied then. You don't know what you are talking about. I never lie.

I don't see ON THIS FORUM here. Pls point out where you typed that. OH? What's that? Got busted with a LIE again???

Awww tooo baaad.

Originally posted by h1a8
Who hasn't? Omitted irrelevant facts isn't lying.

Except that the fact that he had HELP is relevant.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now if I said Superman exerted over 100 Earth weights of force then that would be lying since that number assumes he had no help. 50 Earth weights assumes he had 3 way help. Exerting 1 Earth weight of force PROVES HE CAN pull a planet solo. I have no problem in saying "Superman has planet pulling feats, with help, in which he exerted over 50 Earth weights of force." I don't care if a billion beings helped him pull, just as long as I can keep my 50 Earth weights of force to prove his strength.

Not the issue at hand. :-/

Nice try at attempting to derail the thread tho.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't need to post the computations here because you were the one who I was talking to. You already saw and read my post on the computations. I was merely talking to you only. Thus how can I lie to you if you seen my computations and know I mentioned the help in them?

You omitted important facts on a public (w/c can most likely be read and misinterpreted by others) site and got called on it, now you're saying that since you mentioned something some time back, it compensates for your deliberate commission of relevant information?

I call BS, Mr Liarman.

You might wanna check your pants. I think they're on fire.

Originally posted by h1a8
I know what I said. If you want to break my argument down, you must first quote me accurately then show the argument in broken down form underneath it. You totally misrepresented my argument with lies and twisted words with your own.

If I misinterpreted your points, please repost them and explain them HERE pls.

I ALREADY underlined the items where you mentioned these arguments. It's not my fault you ignore relevant arguments when you can't address them. I'm not about to dig thru pages of garbage posts (your posts) and relevant info (posts by others) just cause you're not able to DO YOUR "JOB" when I've already done MY part.

If you're too lazy, just concede, otherwise, look for my arguments and ADDRESS THEM PLS.

Actually, I'll even make it easier for you!

W/c of the 4 logical statements (that I summarized) are you DENYING that you posted? Would be fun to catch u with another lie. 😄

"Teleportation/matter manip is commutative so teleporting some1's molecules can be done!"
"Teleportation is NOT comutatitve!"
"Teleporting someone's molecules apart isn't matter manipulation!!"
"The fact that Dr M has fine control of subatomic particles (matter manip) AND can teleport ppl proves that he can teleport molecules apart!!!"