Originally posted by Mindset
Were they actually said to have the same amount of power as his original self, I must have missed that part?
It is understood by default of writer's intentions.
All duplicates can do what Dr. M can do. Otherwise they would just be mere images of him with no powers. Dr. M can created other life and even recreated himself from nothing. It stands to reason that he can create beings that can do the same.
Originally posted by 753
The point is SS doesnt have to grab and hold on to DM to drag him through time. He can encase him in a forcefield to do it, along with a portion of the battlefield. You could claim DM can teleport out of it if he realizes what is happening, but SS can conceivebly make the field TP proof.The board can indeed suck creatures in. Thanos imperative 4 shows it.
I don't have to prove DM's mind would be accessible through the astral plane as it is obvious enough, because the rules state they fight in a neutral universe and so there would be an astral plane through which one could reach his mind. Onus of evidence to show he is inaccessible or impervious to TP or astral form attacks is on you. As for how long it would take for the SS to conclude the astral attack while leaving his body abandoned, the speed of thought and travel in astral form is said to be incalculable, xavier reached across a galaxy in astral form almost instantly. With his mind under attack DM would have difficulty managing a physical attack on the SS.
He amps when he grows? Evidence?
Now you are desperate here. No way in hell can SS make a forcefield that one can't Teleport or phase out of. A neutral universe doesn't include an astral plane by default. You don't make the rules. Even if it is then my first point still stands about Dr. M instantly destroying or absorbing his body the moment he leaves. Also my point leaving the battlefield (to the astral plane) is against the rules. Even if it weren't SS would be self koing himself anyway since he is his body.
SS would have to concentrate to reach astral plane. He leaves himself open for attack.
Dr. M has more mass and thus more power when larger. That evidence is common sense. Every being in comics who has ever grown in size was more powerful than their original size, Galactus, Destroyer, Henry Pym, etc.
Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are desperate here. No way in hell can SS make a forcefield that one can't Teleport or phase out of.
A neutral universe doesn't include an astral plane by default. You don't make the rules. Even if it is then my first point still stands about Dr. M instantly destroying or absorbing his body the moment he leaves. Also my point leaving the battlefield (to the astral plane) is against the rules. Even if it weren't SS would be self koing himself anyway since he is his body.
Actually, in a neutral universe there is as much of an astral plane as there is a speedforce, otherwise it would be impossible for flash and telepaths to use their powers. The astral attack would be instantaneous, as the speed of thought and action in astral form is beyond any measure, it's not even ruled by the same laws of physics as the real world.
Beyond all of this, he can destroy DM's body and then go after his mind in astral form as he takes a while to reform.
says who?
SS would have to concentrate to reach astral plane. He leaves himself open for attack.
So you have no direct evidence huh? Good to know. Even if the increase in mass gave him more strengh, which is debateble, there is no reason to assume it would give him more energy/matter manipulation power.
Dr. M has more mass and thus more power when larger. That evidence is common sense. Every being in comics who has ever grown in size was more powerful than their original size, Galactus, Destroyer, Henry Pym, etc.
SS can amp himself through ambient energy absorption. He has actually done this too.
Originally posted by 753How do you know?He lives everything simultaneously.
You're full of it h1. Manhatan may teleport, but he can't travel through time. SS can drag him through the timestream alright, just blanket the whole area with the power instead of grabing him.The board absorbs beings into it, they're rendered powerless within it. The nega-bands already allowed interdimensional travel and it didn't do legacy any good.
DM's mind would be a part of the astral plane, like everyone else's. Through the astral plane, one doesn't attack the body in the real world but the mind/soul directly. It's equivalent to a mindrape.
SS once shrank down to the microverse. Why wouldnt he be able to grow? And besides, what makes you think manhatan becomes more powerfull by growing in size?
Manhattan could just clone himself and have him absorb one.
You can't judge how well manhattan would do on an astral plain so you can't say surfer would auto-win.
Shrinking =/= growing
Originally posted by MindsetWhere was it said they had different powers?Does multiple man lose powers the more clones he makes? Now given he has only shown to be able to make 3 but they probably all have the same powers. Dr. M just doesn't have enough feats.
Were they actually said to have the same amount of power as his original self, I must have missed that part?
Originally posted by Black bolt zHe experiences his own timeline at once. He never showed the power to displace himself through the timestream.
How do you know?He lives everything simultaneously.
this could work, but the fight would just go on
Manhattan could just clone himself and have him absorb one.
Without any telepathic powers of his own, I don't see much defense for him.
You can't judge how well manhattan would do on an astral plain so you can't say surfer would auto-win.
SS can clearly absorb mass and energy and has control over his own form, including size alteration, so there is no reason to assume he couldn't.
Shrinking =/= growing
Originally posted by h1a8You don't seem to be getting that he can drag manhattan into the astral plain as well...he doesn't just go...they both go.
Now you are desperate here. No way in hell can SS make a forcefield that one can't Teleport or phase out of. A neutral universe doesn't include an astral plane by default. You don't make the rules. Even if it is then my first point still stands about Dr. M instantly destroying or absorbing his body the moment he leaves. Also my point leaving the battlefield (to the astral plane) is against the rules. Even if it weren't SS would be self koing himself anyway since he is his body.SS would have to concentrate to reach astral plane. He leaves himself open for attack.
Dr. M has more mass and thus more power when larger. That evidence is common sense. Every being in comics who has ever grown in size was more powerful than their original size, Galactus, Destroyer, Henry Pym, etc.
ANd how does bigger equal better?
Originally posted by 753Like I said before DM doesn't have enough feats.For all we know he could be high skyfather or high meta.
He experiences his own timeline at once. He never showed the power to displace himself through the timestream.
this could work, but the fight would just go onWithout any telepathic powers of his own, I don't see much defense for him.
SS can clearly absorb mass and energy and has control over his own form, including size alteration, so there is no reason to assume he couldn't.
yeah I don't like that cheap absorbing crap.
And you know this how? I'm not entirely sure if its mind reading or future seeing but considering he wouldn't have been anywhere near it when it happened and he can only see his own future he read silk spectres mind when she was about to ask dan out to dinner.
Any actual feats?If you assume like you are doing that manhattan can create 10000000 copies of himself and grow them all and one shot surfer.But seeing as there are no feats for that I would like proof for surfer growing.
Originally posted by Black bolt zSurfer is more likely to bfr DM than the other way around. Surfer can bfr in time or bfr him to another dimension game over DM never showed the baility to teleport threw time or dimensions
I never said that. He could teleport him to the other side of the universe but surfer would just fly back.Its like trying to BFR flash.But surfer isn't BFRing manhattan either.
Originally posted by iceman24567I don't think either can BFR the other.DM just doesn't have enough feats to really debate with.I mean its obvious he beats most people in meta and below but besides obviously winning and losing theres not much debate.
Surfer is more likely to bfr DM than the other way around. Surfer can bfr in time or bfr him to another dimension game over DM never showed the baility to teleport threw time or dimensions
kk I give up someone give me definitive proof of anything physically or psychicly hurting Manhattan and I'll concede. Prove that anything can block his teleportation. Prove the past reading of Silk Spectre wasn't TP. Give me some proof that anything can be done to stop Manhattan. On panel feats only.
Oh wait I just remembered nobody can give me an on panel weakness for Manhattan beyond tachyon disruption. Arguement is moot remove Dr. Manhattan from threads. Anyone meta and below is instantly one shotted and anyone higher there isn't enough info to say what would effect anyone.
Originally posted by h1a8I didn't see the writers intentions of them all keeping the same amount of his original power.
It is understood by default of writer's intentions.
All duplicates can do what Dr. M can do. Otherwise they would just be mere images of him with no powers. Dr. M can created other life and even recreated himself from nothing. It stands to reason that he can create beings that can do the same.
Sorry
Originally posted by 753Probably isn't proof. If he hasn't shown it or hasn't been stated to do it or it isn't a direct superset of something he shown then he can't do it.
Really? He can't? Considering the power he's displayed over spacetime I'd say he probably can. Or simply blanket the area and move it through time instead of grabbing DM.
Ok I agree. But my points still stands about leaving the battlefield and Dr. M destroying his body. Plus add the fact that this is a one time feat.Actually, in a neutral universe there is as much of an astral plane as there is a speedforce, otherwise it would be impossible for flash and telepaths to use their powers. The astral attack would be instantaneous, as the speed of thought and action in astral form is beyond any measure, it's not even ruled by the same laws of physics as the real world.
Beyond all of this, he can destroy DM's body and then go after his mind in astral form as he takes a while to reform.
Dr. M would have duplicated a million time over (and be Giants) right after the bell.
Says the image of the scan.says who?
Evidence is that it is a comic fact. There is no character in comics who increased their size was weaker or the same. From Destroyer to Galactus to Henry Pym to Apoc to etc. We go by writer's intentions here, not what really happened (since non of this really happened). Writer's clearly intended to show Dr. M can become more powerful through gaining size. Otherwise he would have never written Dr. M to do that.
So you have no direct evidence huh? Good to know. Even if the increase in mass gave him more strengh, which is debateble, there is no reason to assume it would give him more energy/matter manipulation power.SS can amp himself through ambient energy absorption. He has actually done this too.
I know SS can amp too.
Originally posted by MindsetI did. It was clearly shown when the writer portrayed Dr. M to create himself from nothing. That means he can use that power to create many others of the same him (even himself again).
I didn't see the writers intentions of them all keeping the same amount of his original power.Sorry
It also was shown in Dr. M's statement that he can other life.
Originally posted by h1a8nothing you said shows they had the same amount of power as his original self
I did. It was clearly shown when the writer portrayed Dr. M to create himself from nothing. That means he can use that power to create many others of the same him (even himself again).It also was shown in Dr. M's statement that he can other life.