Superman vs Silver Surfer (tournament style)

Originally posted by h1a8
I mentioned that you must have three things. Remember my baseball player boxer scenario?

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree

Human's can transmute elements. What planet are you from?
They can turn hydrogen to helium, etc. But transmutation is irrelevant to my point. The fact is one can't make something just by only knowing its name. I tell Surfer to make some "kyxnil" and he wouldn't know how, because he doesn't know its chemical makeup.

Originally posted by h1a8
Comparable speed goes out the window on speeds approaching light speed. For example, if someone can move at 99% the speed of light and the other at 98% then you would probably say they both move at comparable speeds right? Well if you say yes then you would be wrong. Why? Because this 1% of the speed of light difference is huge. That means one can move more than 32.8 feet before the other can move 3.83 inches.

Originally posted by h1a8
If I'm wrong then it's sure not mathematically. Math proves feats which proves who is the greater, at least IMO. Otherwise we wouldn't know who is stronger from different comic companies.

Originally posted by h1a8
The comic doesn't say recton. It could be just inconsistent writing. To prove my point, did the writer for the Onslaught saga recton the gem back into Juggs chest? Did the writer for Spidey vs. Firelord recton Spidey being able to match heralds in a h2h fight when serious enough? I can go on. Who's to say these aren't rectons too?

Originally posted by h1a8
Rectons don't trump old showings if that recton doesn't explain what actually happened in those old showings. A recton without explanation of past events would just be called "Inconsistent Writing".

Originally posted by h1a8
Pre ret Beyonder recton DID EXPLAIN what happened in the past to undo it. Now we can go back and say, "That's how that actually happened." Without explanation of contradictory events there is no recton.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No YOU must have three things. I don't doubt that you refuse to accept the facts, I'm content to let you be wrong.

Show me a human using transmutation. And that's no where near a fact in comics, especially with Surfer since he's shown that his Power Cosmic isn't limited by hiw own technical knowledge. Also, do you think Surfer's a bonified genius who knows the chemical make up and techlogical workings of everything he's ever transmuted?

It makes absolutely no sense for Surfer to make anything if he don't know the makeup of it. How would he know to move a proton here and there or to add a proton here and there if he didn't know the makeup? Now I agree that he can analyze something and then keep that knowledge on how to make it at a future time. Or he can add a little creativity and logic to something he already knows (like what humans do).

The thing is though that it can't be proven who's faster(even by 1%), because they're comparible.

Yeah, your math is wrong because it fuctions off your own assumptions.

Comics never say recton.

Yeah they do. Rectons by their very nature trump any older showings.

Not really. The guy killed Death and the recton didn't really explane his ability to do so.

I thought all the cosmic abstracts were playing along. That means Death didn't get killed but pretended to get killed or LT killed her to make it seem Beyonder did.

H1 just give up.Surfer is as fast if not faster then superman,almost as strong physically,can drain him,and just has overall more power output.And theres lots more.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nuclear fusion is a form of transmutation that humans do all the time. There are hydrogen bombs in comics so there are humans transmuting elements as well.

Originally posted by h1a8
It makes absolutely no sense for Surfer to make anything if he don't know the makeup of it. How would he know to move a proton here and there or to add a proton here and there if he didn't know the makeup? Now I agree that he can analyze something and then keep that knowledge on how to make it at a future time. Or he can add a little creativity and logic to something he already knows (like what humans do).

And again, Surfer's shown that his Power Cosmic isn't limited by his own technological knowledge, so it doesn't matter if it "makes sense" to you.

Originally posted by h1a8
Feats prove things.

Originally posted by h1a8
Then my assumptions could be wrong (unlikely), not my math. All things ARE BASED OFF OF ASSUMPTIONS. These are called axioms or postulates. No one can prove an axiom. It's the lowest one can go in proving something.

Originally posted by h1a8
My point is that it's not a recton if they don't EXPLAIN the discrepancies of past events. If they did then of course they trump any older showings. But Spidey beating firelord wasn't a recton when it first happened and neither was Onslaught pulling the gem from Cain's chest.

Originally posted by h1a8
I thought all the cosmic abstracts were playing along. That means Death didn't get killed but pretended to get killed or LT killed her to make it seem Beyonder did.

Originally posted by h1a8
The schlub didn't prove to move his hand as fast as light but at least 10% of it within the time frame of the attack. Thor could have been aim dodging when he jumped out of the way (show the scan again). As far as Thor blocking the beam, Thor could swing the hammer at human speeds (the speed in which a strong human can swing it) and still block the beam. Why?

Originally posted by h1a8
Because
1. The hammer absorbs energy
2. The beam is continuous and thus if 1. isn't valid then Thor would have to swing it with infinite speed (any multiple of light speed isn't enough as the beam will still get through since it's continuous).

We know that Thor doesn't swing the hammer at infinite speed and we know that the hammer absorbs energy like a sponge. Thus we can conclude that Thor doesn't need to swing the hammer very fast to absorb the beam. He must start the swing before the beam reaches him though. That's where is light speed reflexes come in to play.

And your arbitrary construction of how Mjolnir completely banishes his need for speedy body movement does not apply to when Thor leaps his entire body out of the way of light speed attacks.

Originally posted by h1a8
Again, I never claimed the being to move as fast as light. I actually stated posts ago that to block an attack from 10 meters away one must move with at least 10% of the speed of the attack. The thing is, the schlub had to not only put his hand up at the right moment but he had to put it in the right spot. Superman could have fired at any time and at any place on his body. Superman is not going to fire at a hand already up to block the beam. Thor on the other hand is different. He doesn't necessarily have to put the hammer up in the right spot. He just whirls it to cover a larger area. If Thor has the reflexes and speed as the schlub and assuming the hammer doesn't absorb energy then why doesn't Thor just block the beam by holding the hammer still in front of the beam and using his speed and reflexes to take care of the rest?

Originally posted by h1a8
That's because he doesn't have that type of speed and reflexes most of the time to do that and thus needs to rotate the hammer to compensate for this.

Originally posted by h1a8
I thought you were referring to the other feat. Well in this case you committed a false statement then (you didn't necessarily lie though). Surfer was only 1 light year away when Thanos started to cock back. The whole scenario tooks a few seconds on average.

Originally posted by h1a8
But he wasn't completely depowered. Thus red sun radiation doesn't completely depower Superman or Superboy prime on contact. Superman is far faster than SS from a dead start. Feats show this. Hell as far as long distance traveling we have Superman traveling to other galaxies within moments (without the use of wormholes and such), although this is irrelevant to the fight.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Show me a human using transmutation.

H1 transmuting facts into feces. 😉

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ah so you meant that humans can create tech to do stuff, not that humans could do it right? Big difference there.

So you believe that he knows the chemical makeup and technological workings of everthing he's ever transmuted then?

And again, Surfer's shown that his Power Cosmic isn't limited by his own technological knowledge, so it doesn't matter if it "makes sense" to you.

How would SS know to make kryptonite without analzying it first or someone telling him the chemical makeup? His cosmic power doesn't just know because of its name. If I'm wrong then prove it by showing at least one scan where someone mentions a substance that SS never heard of or analyzed and SS is able to make it.
Yes it has to make some sort of sense (not a lot) in order for it not to be complete nonsense.

Well then post some for Supes and I'll post some for Surfer.

If math is applied to the wrong situation, the math is wrong as far as getting the answer goes.

Your wrong, all that's required for a retcon is the deliberate changing of established facts. Look it up.

No she died, we see the effect in Molecule Man's appartment.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
H1 just give up.Surfer is as fast if not faster then superman,almost as strong physically,can drain him,and just has overall more power output.And theres lots more.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your completely arbitrary quantifications notwithstanding, if the schlub didn't need to have body movements over 10% the speed of light, then Superman didn't need more than 10.1% speed of light to attack him. Accordingly, your entire conclusion that Superman outraced his light speed heat vision is needless. Do you understand now?

If it takes time for Thor to start the swing before the light speed attack reaches him... how does that not prove he has FTL body movement?

And your arbitrary construction of how Mjolnir completely banishes his need for speedy body movement does not apply to when Thor leaps his entire body out of the way of light speed attacks. Thor has blocked beams by holding the hammer still in front of him:

Now you see that is not true. Moreover, he's batted rays/beams/lasers away with a swing. And both situations actually require less movement than having to spin Mjolnir around several times. I was thinking of something else and confused the two. In any case, do your vaulted calcuations on speeding one complete light year in a single moment. Surfer is faster from a dead start. Surfer has a better top speed as well.

Anyway, the scans don't disprove me. I don't disagree that Thor don't have light speed reflexes. I disagree that he needs to move at light speed to block light speed. The sclub doesn't need to move at light speed to block light speed either. I never claimed he moved that fast. I will post the calculations later tonight when I get home on SS's feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't matter if humans use tools to do it or do it under their own power, it's the same. SS uses his power as a tool to achieve the same thing.

Originally posted by h1a8
How would SS know to make kryptonite without analzying it first or someone telling him the chemical makeup? His cosmic power doesn't just know because of its name. If I'm wrong then prove it by showing at least one scan where someone mentions a substance that SS never heard of or analyzed and SS is able to make it.

Yes it has to make some sort of sense (not a lot) in order for it not to be complete nonsense.

Originally posted by h1a8
You already the feat in which Superman blitzes the dude that casually (while practically yawning) blocks his HV. I already know of Surfer's top speed feats. I calculated all of them and found none to have him reaching light within the first 3 meters of travel. If you disagree then post a feat where you think he did and I will show you the calculations of the feat of whether he achieved light speed within the first 3 meters of travel.

Originally posted by h1a8
False, if math CAN BE applied then it cannot be the wrong situation. Only the math itself can be wrong. You just can't pick and choose where math should be applied. Anything quantifiable, math can be applied. How would we know if someone is stronger in Marvel than D.C. without some type of mathematical quantifying.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's where you are wrong. A writer can be wrong, plain and simple. One writer doesn't have the power to contradict an entire character's history without explanation. Otherwise, many things would be rectons and not inconsistent writing or PIS.

How can anyone argue maths on comics ffs. Ludicrous.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In any case, do your vaulted calcuations on speeding one complete light year in a single moment.

Here you go.

We know that lightyear distance traveled is
Xl= Xo + Vo*t +1/2*a*t^2
Where Xl is lightyear distance (final distance), Xo is intial position (zero here), Vo is initial velocity (zero again), t is time in seconds, and a is acceleration in m/s.
Since both Xo = 0 and Vo = 0 then solving for 'a' yields
a=2*Xl/t^2 [1]

This would be SS's acceleration.

Now assuming the same acceleration let us consider the distance of D=3 meters and find the speed in which the Surfer reaches at 3 meters.
We use the equation

Vf^2-Vo^2=2aD ,

where Vf is final velocity (speed at D distance).

Again since Vo = 0 then solving for Vf yields
Vf=sqrt(2aD) or
Vf=sqrt[2*(2*Xl/t^2)*D] from [1] above
=sqrt[4*Xl*D/t^2] simplifying.

Now a light year is 299792458m/s x (3600s/1hr) x (24hr/1day) X (365days) = 9454254955488000m
Now assuming the whole traveling feat lasted about 1.5-2 seconds (I'll use the average of 1.75 seconds).

Then Vf = sqrt[4*9454254955488000*3/(1.75)^2]m/s

=192471410.62303m/s

This is under light speed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
😂

So you believe that Surfer knows the chemical makeup and technical workings of everything he's ever created then?

The guys hand was up from blocking the HV, he just didn't see Supes coming until it was too late.

Wrong because you're math is always based on personal assumptions regarding Surfer's acceleration.

Again look up the definition of retcon. The writer went out of his way to say that the effect of red sunlight on Supes is different than what they thought before. That's a deliberate changing of established facts and that constitutes a retcon.

you phucked up

light covers 299 792.458 km per second, surfer covered AT LEAST 9,460,730,472,580.8 km in the same second (or split second)

How the hell does it make sense that he accelerates under light speed in a second yet covers a LIGHT YEAR in distance within that same second.

I call BS on this computation.

Another thing, your PRIMARY assumption (w/c the entire computation is dependent on) is based on him taking more than a second to travel one light year. What feat are you basing it off when him travelling a light year in less than a second is just as true as him taking 2 seconds to travel one light year based on the scan?

Again. Biased ASSumptions to form misleading conclusions.

More than not, the fair average is one second per light year.

Also, your computation is ASSUMING the Surfer travels at a consistent accelleration. Which was never shown on panel. What proof do you have that he simply doesn't REACH top from the get-go and simply stay within that range for the entire duration?

Again. Biased ASSumptions to form misleading conclusions.

It must really suck to resort to misleading ppl to try and get a falsehood across.

Originally posted by h1a8
Of course. Unless SS just decided to make some random stuff and didn't know what was going to come out of it.

Originally posted by h1a8
😂
Good one Darth.

Originally posted by h1a8
Not quite. I'm willing to be reasonable here.

Originally posted by h1a8
Again one writer's inconsistent writing CAN'T dismiss an entire history WITHOUT EXPLANATION of the past discrepancies, that's not a recton. If you are right, then I am right about the recton of Spidey matching heralds if he is serious enough, or the gem being in Juggs chest. I'm a right?

Surely h1 sees the false assumptions on his computation...!

Don't even know what the 3 meters BS has anything to do with this debate...! They START .5kms apart... >_<

For shits and giggles. I had a friend of mine who ACTUALLY does

Note: He says that this is a simple computation that doesn't really obey the laws of quantum physics (something about the impossibility of actually hitting the "speed" of light, couldn't quite get his entire point as we were just talking on the phone).

But here is the assumptions I provided:

What would be faster between the two:

Case 1: Traveling from rest to 1 light year within a second.

Case 2: Going to light speed within the first 3 meters of movement.

This is assuming at rest and assuming there is a constant state of acceleration.

I think this can be measured by determining acceleration.

Here is his math:

http://img255.imageshack.us/i/kmcreply.png/

Case 1 is faster.