Originally posted by darthgoober
You don't seem to be getting the point. Power output isn't the relevant point of that scan, Surfer's ability to produce light from his body is. If I or anyone else was focusing on power output we'd just show his ability to create a blackhole as a side effect of an energy discharge as proof.It's called a recton man, you may not like it but trying to ignore it as if it's not relevant is kinda dumb on your part.
For the scan of Surfer producing light from his body.
Creating a massive black hole indirectly (making a star collaspe) is not much of a feat. Romulan tech can do that. Creating a small massive black hole isn't much of a feat either.
There is no recton, just inconsistent writing. You act like you never read comics before. Many things were explained one way and showed another (past, present, and future).
Originally posted by 753The guy did it casually though (pratically yawning). If each of Superman's attacks were slower then he would really be yawning blocking each punch with ease.
No it doesn't, because the blitz is a series of multidirectional attacs and the HV is a single one, it's harder to defend against a blitz. The fact that the guy couldnt defend against the blitz can also be atributed to SM's superior skills in H2H. SM did not even outrace his own hv, so this says nothing about how fast he was moving to close in on the guy.
I agree. These things don't follow the combo to ko principle though. I'll repeat the principle. If.
Because characters react through the pundings they receive all the time in comics. Durability, reaction time, etc. can all allow a guy getting punched repeatedly to interrupt the combo with a cunterstrike. comics do not support the notion that once a character is hit the first time, he'll be defenselss to a string of attack
Then one can achieve the combo to ko. Now if 2. fails then the combo to ko fails. Superman can definitely achieve 1. As far as 2. Superman is more than strong enough to stun rock SS for enough time to hit him again (he has the speed to do so also).
Those guys didn't add another hit before the stun effect wore off (stipulation 2). And some of those guys (Hulk) didn't always stun SS (stipulation 1.). A microsecond stun is a lifetime for Superman. Superman is far powerful enough to stun SS for a least some seconds with a blow.
I'm saying SS has endured and remained fighting while taking blows from hulk, gladiator, thor and galactus himself. If a backhand from G didnt stun SS significantly, a unch from SM won't.
Superman has flown and fought through Giant red suns before.
The energy output delivered on both ocasions however should be more thant what it takes on averge to depower SM through red sun. Specially because the actual amountn of energy that hits a being the size of SM at a given time from the sun is realy smalll. SS can cetainly match and surpass that.
I agree. It's just you were using misleading wording, making us think that SS can exert the exact power of a main sequence star.
But what depoweres SM is light, so whatever other energies are packed by different radiations are irrelevant, it's the radiant component that matters here. I also believe most of the energy a star releases is luminosity anyway, but I could be wrong.
Originally posted by h1a8
Irrelevant to my point. I didn't assume this at all.
Originally posted by h1a8u did.. "Creating a massive black hole indirectly (making a star collaspe)"
Creating a massive black hole indirectly (making a star collaspe) is not much of a feat. Romulan tech can do that. Creating a small massive black hole isn't much of a feat either.
Originally posted by h1a8
Creating a massive black hole indirectly (making a star collaspe) is not much of a feat. Romulan tech can do that. Creating a small massive black hole isn't much of a feat either.There is no recton, just inconsistent writing. You act like you never read comics before. Many things were explained one way and showed another (past, present, and future).
Sure it's a recton, and it trumps any evidence that came before it. It also kills your arguement...
Originally posted by darthgooberSS can pull off making a miniture mass black hole.
Way to try to downplay feats, but we can have that arguement when it's actually relevant to what we're discussing. Point is, Surfer can pull off the tactic we've been talking about.Sure it's a recton, and it trumps any evidence that came before it. It also kills your arguement...
It's your opinion that it trumps any evidence that came before it. Not mine.
Ah, my two favorite characters.
I'm not that familiar with tournament style debating, but I think Surfer takes this. Superman can/could win; but given how close he and Surfer are in sheer power output + Surfer's versatility + Superman's expoitable weaknesses (even if toned down)...the likely outcome seems almost obvious, especially if Surfer uses mostly ranged attacks.
Sorry if I didn't exactly handle this tournament-style, but a match-up like this I simply can't pass w/o offering my 2-cents worth.
^ 👆
Originally posted by h1a8That huge difference is nothing but wishful thinking. There are hundreds of instances of people shooting each other, having it dodged/blocked, and then getting punched in the face in the very next panel. Punisher has done that with Daredevil. Come out of your tunnel. Your tunnel-vision isn't working.
The guy did it casually though (pratically yawning). If each of Superman's attacks were slower then he would really be yawning blocking each punch with ease.
There was a huge difference in that scan. Superman no doubt exceeding the attack speed of his HV.
Originally posted by h1a8Superman can't catch Surfer from a dead-start. And your initial hit stun is more aptly applied to a burst of red sun radiation hitting Superman initially. This will stun/disrupt Superman making following blasts/punches/board rams that much more likely and effective. Difference is, Surfer beats Superman in dead-start speed (and durability even).
I agree. These things don't follow the combo to ko principle though. I'll repeat the principle. If.
1. one hits with a stunning blow and
2. Is fast enough to hit again before the stun effect wears off, renewing the stun.Then one can achieve the combo to ko. Now if 2. fails then the combo to ko fails. Superman can definitely achieve 1. As far as 2. Superman is more than strong enough to stun rock SS for enough time to hit him again (he has the speed to do so also).
Originally posted by h1a8Superman cannot string together his fiercest blows in that type of quick succession. Your argument is akin to to Surfer creating millions of black holes in seconds.
Those guys didn't add another hit before the stun effect wore off (stipulation 2). And some of those guys (Hulk) didn't always stun SS (stipulation 1.). A microsecond stun is a lifetime for Superman. Superman is far powerful enough to stun SS for a least some seconds with a blow.
Originally posted by h1a8And Superman was instantly depowered from doing so, even though he flew through it at FTL speeds.
Superman has flown and fought through Giant red suns before.I agree. It's just you were using misleading wording, making us think that SS can exert the exact power of a main sequence star.
Nova-intensity light is more than enough to disrupt Superman's powers. In fact, it's overkill.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0No where it was shown that someone casually blocks a light speed attack (all beams aren't light speed nor projectiles) then in the same breath gets hit with a much slower frontal attack. You are also going against writer's intentions here. The being was clearly shown to have the speed and reflexes to casually block Superman's HV. This is why the writer SHOWED Superman using SPEED to be able to hit him. The writer knew that without speed Superman wouldn't be able to hit him.
^ 👆 That huge difference is nothing but wishful thinking. There are hundreds of instances of people shooting each other, having it dodged/blocked, and then getting punched in the face in the very next panel. Punisher has done that with Daredevil. Come out of your tunnel. Your tunnel-vision isn't working.
Superman moves faster than SS from a dead start. His acceleration blink speed is instant where SS's isn't.
Superman can't catch Surfer from a dead-start. And your initial hit stun is more aptly applied to a burst of red sun radiation hitting Superman initially. This will stun/disrupt Superman making following blasts/punches/board rams that much more likely and effective. Difference is, Surfer beats Superman in dead-start speed (and durability even). Superman cannot string together his fiercest blows in that type of quick succession. Your argument is akin to to Surfer creating millions of black holes in seconds. And Superman was instantly depowered from doing so, even though he flew through it at FTL speeds.Nova-intensity light is more than enough to disrupt Superman's powers. In fact, it's overkill.
Lastly, brightness is not the same as power. Inside a star much much radiation is hitting you. Far more than outside the star. If not then Superman would have been depowered before he even entered the star.
Originally posted by h1a8Thor's blocked laser vision and managed to strike Gladiator and Count Nefaria. Doesn't mean that the Mjolnir strike >>> light speed. Street-levelers dodge projectiles and get hit by follow-up punches all the time. You need to read more comics instead of trying to interpret one single scene to the wildest, most Superman-feat friendly way possible. Your proclivity for this is nearly unmatched, I know. That doesn't make it credible.
No where it was shown that someone casually blocks a light speed attack (all beams aren't light speed nor projectiles) then in the same breath gets hit with a much slower frontal attack. You are also going against writer's intentions here. The being was clearly shown to have the speed and reflexes to casually block Superman's HV. This is why the writer SHOWED Superman using SPEED to be able to hit him. The writer knew that without speed Superman wouldn't be able to hit him.
Originally posted by h1a8Surfer's faster from a dead start based on feats.
Superman moves faster than SS from a dead start. His acceleration blink speed is instant where SS's isn't.
Originally posted by h1a8He was instantly depowerred for the instant that he passed through it. He was flying through it at FTL speeds, the fact that he didn't stay there for but an instant is probably what saved him.
Superman would have died instantly if he was depowered instantly going through that red star. The moment he entered he should have lost his powers and got burned/crushed to death. I don't believe they were going at FTL speeds but that's irrelevant to your point.
Originally posted by h1a8You don't need power behind the red sunlight to disrupt Superman's powers. A more intensely bright red sun lightburst will affect him worse. And Superman's been depowered before having to enter a red star. Read more of his comics.
Lastly, brightness is not the same as power. Inside a star much much radiation is hitting you. Far more than outside the star. If not then Superman would have been depowered before he even entered the star.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Blocking and striking are two different things. One needs to only move less than .1 of the speed of a projectile in order to block it from 10 meters away.
Thor's blocked laser vision and managed to strike Gladiator and Count Nefaria. Doesn't mean that the Mjolnir strike >>> light speed. Street-levelers dodge projectiles and get hit by follow-up punches all the time. You need to read more comics instead of trying to interpret one single scene to the wildest, most Superman-feat friendly way possible. Your proclivity for this is nearly unmatched, I know. That doesn't make it credible. Surfer's faster from a dead start based on feats. He was instantly depowerred for the instant that he passed through it. He was flying through it at FTL speeds, the fact that he didn't stay there for but an instant is probably what saved him. You don't need power behind the red sunlight to disrupt Superman's powers. A more intensely bright red sun lightburst will affect him worse. And Superman's been depowered before having to enter a red star. Read more of his comics.
Second, it was in the same breath. Why do you think the author had Superman used speed after he blocked it?
Superman is faster from a dead start from feats you mean. Otherwise why would I say it?
Saying he was flying at FTL speeds isn't proof that he was. The argument is whether red sun radiation depowers Superman instantly. This is not true since Superman would have been depowered outside the sun. Remember a star at close range is as bright as a Super nova from some a little ways back.
Originally posted by h1a8Great. You've also argued in the past that Thor must rotate Mjolnir many times before he can block stuff like that. So since he does rotate it many times, he must be moving at FTL speeds. By your own standards, of course.
Blocking and striking are two different things. One needs to only move less than .1 of the speed of a projectile in order to block it from 10 meters away.
Originally posted by h1a8Thor's blocked heat vision and laser vision in the same breath as well. I don't think the author meant that Superman's punch assault was in fact, faster than his heat vision. I still don't see it. Because I see Punisher shoot Daredevil all the time, missing him, and then following up with a punch. Punisher's punch is faster than Punisher's bullets? Only if you wanted to be an idiot about it.
Second, it was in the same breath. Why do you think the author had Superman used speed after he blocked it?
I understand your entire combo-to-ko theory hinges on Superman having incredible FTL blitz speeds. I also understand that you've exhausted your search for any evidence that would support that. I also can't help but point out that this laffable non-feat is the best you can do. Superman ain't Flash. Not even close.
Originally posted by h1a8Because you like to say wrong things. Surfer is faster from a dead-start in traveling speed.
Superman is faster from a dead start from feats you mean. Otherwise why would I say it?
Originally posted by h1a8They were flying from Earth to Oa to Krypton. Yeah... that's many times FTL speeds. I understand you're ironically trying to lowball their traveling speeds to reverse-inflate Superman's red sun radiation durability but two stupids don't create one smart. Superman being exposed but an instant to Rao is probably what saved him.
Saying he was flying at FTL speeds isn't proof that he was. The argument is whether red sun radiation depowers Superman instantly. This is not true since Superman would have been depowered outside the sun. Remember a star at close range is as bright as a Super nova from some a little ways back.