Saber contest - Master Yoda vs Kas'im

Originally posted by NCRotCA
The fact that his mastery over the lightsaber has been documented to a height unimaginably greater than can be said for anybody else? Given how he also displays the ability to operate under the same realm of power as someone as powerful as a mid-PoT Darth Bane (who demonstrates incredible general ability, with his displays of lightning, telekinesis, speed, and in other areas up until that point in time), when he's able to at least not get overwhelmed by his Force assisted physical power, and defends against an attack the Sith Lord had spent time charging up, he beats Yoda in everything that isn't a strict Force battle.

When you're trying to make an argument for a character, you may try to keep it in the realm of reality so that people don't automatically ignore it. Saying that "his mastery over the lightsaber has been documented to a height unimaginably greater than can be said for anybody else" makes it seem that you don't even know other characters from Star Wars.

Is there anybody else that even approaches mastering all seven forms of the lightsaber that I don't know about?

Mastering ALL 7 forms doesn't necessarily make one better than another who masters a few forms or even a single form to a higher degree. Moreover, apart from pure technical skill, we have a Jedi's/Sith's lightsaber related force prowess coming into play here (Precog, Force-Speed, Agility, etc...).

"So he was winning but DIDN'T win.. nice..."

Actually he did win the lightsaber battle between the two of them, but got defeated by a Force attack after it had ended (through the effect it had on the environment). This by Darth Bane, a being who earlier on had destroyed the strongest student at the BoD's Academy on Korriban (the same group of students who were all declared Dark Lords of the Sith months later and were acknowledged by some of the Dark Lords as the most powerful Sith in the entire Order - the most martial Order of Sith Lords the Universe has ever seen) in a maneuvre described as being too fast for any of the surrounding Force Users to see, displayed an incredible learning rate with the lightsaber, learning something like hundreds of thousands of moves within the span of months, and displayed general excellence with the Force which is something that translates into Force assisted lightsaber ability. He was also a brute of a man, being described as a "mountain of muscle", and he had the advantage in that he knew the terrain inside out and was able to use it to his advantage during their duel. The point being, the guy he defeated was an absolute monster, with the greatest display of speed we've ever seen in the mythos, an uncanny natural talent with the lightsaber, and a generally very powerful individual, both physically and through the Force. I'd say it has Yoda's display against an out of practise Darth Sidious who was demonstratably not even that powerful by that point beaten quite easily.

So he beat NOBDODY of note for all his acclaimed skill?

Actually, he did. We also know he had defeated his master years before who was one of the most powerful Sith in the Order.

I see, I thought we put more importance to actual feats than we do hyperbole around here? Lines stated someone is the best duelist without actual feats to back it up, are just that, lines stating something.

There are feats that back it up, and no, if those same lines are from the perspective of the omniscient narrator, then from within the context of the story, they are entirely factual. The statements in question aren't hyperbole just because you want them to be; that he mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber are not only stated, but that he was the sole lightsaber instructor in charge of the Academy would essentially require it. That he spent time continuously maintaining and improving his skills are not only stated, but in every chance we get to see Kas'im outside of performing the only duties he was tasked with (training the students, which in itself would be a continous application of his own ability) he's seen to be working on his skills. It also fits in with his character: his only concern was with becoming the greatest swordsman he could possibly be, and there wasn't anything else within the halls of the temple that would be able to hold his interest. So no, when the statement fits in with everything else to the point that it's reliant on being literally correct for everything else to stay in place, it's not hyperbole.

He has NEVER beaten anybody of note, so all this acting like he's the best swordsman the Jedi have ever seen is simply laughable"

He has, firstly. Secondy, it wouldn't be required that he had for him to still be of value as a combatant

"Mastering ALL 7 forms doesn't necessarily make one better than another who masters a few forms or even a single form to a higher degree."

Not necessarily. But when that same person is someone who demonstrated a phenomenal learning rate in mastering all seven forms in the first place (given that it's stated he mastered all of them in a few years (and definitely under ten), when according to Cin Drallig the time it takes the average person to master a single form is no less then ten years - that's more than seven times the learning rate of the average person across that period for that purpose; you could even say that given the same amount of time as the average person, he'd be able to make more progress among all seven forms than that person would be able to make with their single form), spent an even longer amount of time maintaining and improving his skills with them (within the operations of his incredible learning rate), and then when you look at the extra advantages such complete mastery would provide in the form of providing you with moves and combinations that could be unfamiliar towards your opponent, and providing you with the familiarity with anything your opponent might be able to bring to the table, I don't see how, on paper, it can't be seen as anything but the most likely case.

You can also bring the principle of diminishing returns into this; that is, when you have one fixed factor, and one variable factor, eventually, a point will be reached where every single extra unit of the variable factor will see an even smaller return on the fixed factor. Well in this scenario, time is the variable factor, and the limitations of a saber form is the fixed factor. Kas'im, having a fixed factor that represent ~7 times the magnitude of the fixed factor of a single form master, will end up seeing diminishing returns much later than the single form master, and as such his time will be able to be spent far more efficiently. With masters of forms the likelihood is that these diminishing returns would already be coming into play, only with Kas'im, they would occur much later, and be far less sizable.

"Moreover, apart from pure technical skill, we have a Jedi's/Sith's lightsaber related force prowess coming into play here (Precog, Force-Speed, Agility, etc...)."

That is true, however even from this standpoint Kas'im showed the ability to at least meet the attacks of one of the most physically imposing and powerful lightsaber duelists we've ever come across, who also happened to possess the single greatest display of speed under his belt. Kas'im was also described as wielding his twin sabers as if he was carrying six, which also speaks quite positively for his speed. His endurance and reflexes are also made note of in the book at different times. All in all, I won't say his Force assisted lightsaber abilities are the best we've ever seen but they're at the very least very impressive, and along with his phenomenal mastery of the lightsaber, I don't see [the overrated] Yoda winning this.

To be honest Id rather Completely Master one form, than be "a master" of several forms. For example Obiwan was "The Master" of Soresu, so you can master however many forms you want, unless your really really good at a particular form your not gna get past Obi-Wans defences.

Hadnt Cin Drallig mastered 6 forms? He still went down to Anakin hard who'd completely mastered one form. Of course Power comes into play there as well, which is why people are gna support Yoda on this. He may not have mastered every form, but he was the Grand Master of his chosen form, and incredibly powerful. Possibly the second highest Force potential on record after Anakin (before Anakin had kids).

"To be honest Id rather Completely Master one form, than be "a master" of several forms. For example Obiwan was "The Master" of Soresu, so you can master however many forms you want, unless your really really good at a particular form your not gna get past Obi-Wans defences."

Well firstly, being a master alone is already indicative of incredibly high ability. I could perhaps be more willing to see things from the other point of view if I were dealing with someone who was simply proficient with every form versus a master of a form. A jack of all trades so to speak. Well in Kas'im, we have a master of all trades, someone who combines the benefits of specialisation in a single discipline with the versatility and completeness in dealing in every discipline. Beyond everyting I listed in the earlier posts, we can also take into consideration that most forms, while they have their strengths, are also faced with their weaknesses. By mastering every single form, Kas'im gets to use the strengths of each form without exposing their weaknesses. Alternative forms act as an answer to the weakness of a given form, and you could tailor your offence around utilising a form that best exploits the weakness of your opponent's form whilst tailoring your defence to utilising the form that best nullifies its strength.

With regards to Kenobi, while he sure demonstrates himself to be an impressive practitioner of Soresu, I don't know if we should go as far as to call him the absolute master of it. By RotS, he'd only been training with the form for about ten years, and when we consider the fact that he had originally utilised Ataru, as well as the fact that Padawans are usually assigned the form that their Master deems them to have the most potential with, it's quite possible that Obi-Wan's potential with Soresu, and his realised ability by RotS, wasn;t even all that high. Regardless, I'm sure if someone was simply strong enough or fast enough or were able to use something alien enough they'd be able to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defences even without being that incredibly good with a single form. Another extended benefit being able to utilise moves abd combinations that your opponent would have no familiarity with is that it has the effect of nullifying their precognition, the greater the effect to which it would do so beign contingent on how alien the moves and combinations are and how many of them.

"Hadnt Cin Drallig mastered 6 forms? He still went down to Anakin hard who'd completely mastered one form."

There are few facts we know about Cin Drallig at all, and that he mastered six forms isn't one of them.

"Of course Power comes into play there as well, which is why people are gna support Yoda on this."

Well Bane as an example has demonstrated far more power than somebody like Yoda, was at least well practised with a saber, and yet Kas'im quite easily had his number when he tapped into his full resources and fought at his best.

While power is an advantage it's not a determining one and I've yet to see anybody even establish that there's that big an advantage on Yoda's side, if an advantage at all.

"He may not have mastered every form, but he was the Grand Master of his chosen form,"

Of Ataru, or do you mean the Jedi Order?

"and incredibly powerful."

I don't think he was that powerful. Sidious becomes incredibly powerful. As do Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Bane and Darth Zannah. As are people like Nihilus the moment we first see them. Yoda, on the other hand, was relatively powerful but not overwhelmingly so like the others. The speed he moved at, and lifting senate pods are the king of great displays of Force Use the movies concern themselves with and while within that era is certainly seperated him from the crowd I feel that there are quite a fe individuals throughout the entire history of the Star Wars Galaxy that are vastly more powerful.

"Possibly the second highest Force potential on record after Anakin (before Anakin had kids)."

What do you mean by on record? The Jedi Order's records? Possibly but I don't see that much indicating it. If you mean out of everyone we know I'd think Sidious, Bane, Zannah, Exar Kun, and Kyp Durron at the very least were all gifted with far higher potentials.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
"So he was winning but DIDN'T win.. nice..."

Actually he did win the lightsaber battle between the two of them, but got defeated by a Force attack after it had ended (through the effect it had on the environment). This by Darth Bane, a being who earlier on had destroyed the strongest student at the BoD's Academy on Korriban (the same group of students who were all declared Dark Lords of the Sith months later and were acknowledged by some of the Dark Lords as the most powerful Sith in the entire Order - the most martial Order of Sith Lords the Universe has ever seen) in a maneuvre described as being too fast for any of the surrounding Force Users to see, displayed an incredible learning rate with the lightsaber, learning something like hundreds of thousands of moves within the span of months, and displayed general excellence with the Force which is something that translates into Force assisted lightsaber ability. He was also a brute of a man, being described as a "mountain of muscle", and he had the advantage in that he knew the terrain inside out and was able to use it to his advantage during their duel. The point being, the guy he defeated was an absolute monster, with the greatest display of speed we've ever seen in the mythos, an uncanny natural talent with the lightsaber, and a generally very powerful individual, both physically and through the Force. I'd say it has Yoda's display against an out of practise Darth Sidious who was demonstratably not even that powerful by that point beaten quite easily.

Actually, he did. We also know he had defeated his master years before who was one of the most powerful Sith in the Order.

There are feats that back it up, and no, if those same lines are from the perspective of the omniscient narrator, then from within the context of the story, they are entirely factual. The statements in question aren't hyperbole just because you want them to be; that he mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber are not only stated, but that he was the sole lightsaber instructor in charge of the Academy would essentially require it. That he spent time continuously maintaining and improving his skills are not only stated, but in every chance we get to see Kas'im outside of performing the only duties he was tasked with (training the students, which in itself would be a continous application of his own ability) he's seen to be working on his skills. It also fits in with his character: his only concern was with becoming the greatest swordsman he could possibly be, and there wasn't anything else within the halls of the temple that would be able to hold his interest. So no, when the statement fits in with everything else to the point that it's reliant on being literally correct for everything else to stay in place, it's not hyperbole.

He has, firstly. Secondy, it wouldn't be required that he had for him to still be of value as a combatant

So you typed ALL that in an effort to act like he defeated somebody of significance, when in fact, he hasn't. In fact, in the duel with Bane.. he was losing even that until he started using a style Bane wasn’t familiar with. So, not only was he pwned via the force… he was losing what he was supposed to be best at, until he threw something new at Bane.. Nice.. very impressive… So impressive in fact, that I see why you gave him the win over Yoda :rolls eyes:

Whether it's by an omniscient narrator or not, doesn't change the fact that we also need battle feats to give more credit to such lines. Sure, he may have mastered everything there was to master in the dojo… This form that form.. 5,000,000 forms.. but when faced with a life or death situation and not the safe haven of a dojo.. things play out a lot differently. Just like in the NBA… somebody are called practice stars.. when the lights are off and the stadium empty and the pressure not on.. some guys are like all-stars… You put them on the court when it matters.. all that practice and skill isn't shown. That is exactly the case Kas… When it came to training and mastering all the forms he could.. sure he was good and a great teacher. When it came time to showing those skills in life or death situations… he has very very few accomplishments, and in fact, the one person of credit he did face… pwned him.

I see nothing in his hyperbole or feats that lead me to believe that he could beat Yoda. You see, I prefer feats WITH narration.. not narration without any feats. Yoda has both… Kas.. well he has narration…

"So you typed ALL that in an effort to act like he defeated somebody of significance, when in fact, he hasn't. In fact, in the duel with Bane.. he was losing even that until he started using a style Bane wasn’t familiar with. So, not only was he pwned via the force… he was losing what he was supposed to be best at, until he threw something new at Bane.. Nice.. very impressive… So impressive in fact, that I see why you gave him the win over Yoda :rolls eyes: "

Yes, he used something that was unfamiliar to his opponent, an advantage of the versatility and completeness of his mastery that I listed, and something that he'd be able to use against almost anybody (and on paper, anybody that we know of) given the magnitude of his mastery. Bane would not be unique in being vulnerable to Kas'im in such a manner. Bane was also a special case in that he was perfectly familiar with every single form and sequence that Kas'im had at his disposal with the saber staff, something not shared by anyone else that we know of, and he still survived long enough to switch to a different weapon, and this is Bane we;re talking about, a being who's demonstrated greater Force assisted lightsaber abilities than any other, that far eclipse anything Yoda has demonstrated.

The Force attack that he got pwned with btw was something he was able to defend against head on, that was powerful enough to turn his body into a mass of pulpy liquid had he not defended himself, and powerful enough for the outer spread of the attack to collapse a temple. A mid combat use of the Force that certainly puts anything we see Yoda and Sidious do in RotS to shame pretty handedly.

"Whether it's by an omniscient narrator or not, doesn't change the fact that we also need battle feats to give more credit to such lines."

More credit? Sure, however when it's simply a matter of discussing his etchnical ability, and we have a non hyperbolic line from the omniscient narrator detailing his technical ability, that's all we need.

"Sure, he may have mastered everything there was to master in the dojo… This form that form.. 5,000,000 forms.. but when faced with a life or death situation and not the safe haven of a dojo.. things play out a lot differently. Just like in the NBA… somebody are called practice stars.. when the lights are off and the stadium empty and the pressure not on.. some guys are like all-stars… You put them on the court when it matters.. all that practice and skill isn't shown. That is exactly the case Kas… When it came to training and mastering all the forms he could.. sure he was good and a great teacher."

Well the issue you seem to be raising now is that of the distinction between the pressure of a real life situation and the carefree nature of practise and training, rather than ability like you appeared to be doing so before. Well in Kas'im we don't have a particularly weak minded and nervous character who deals poorly with pressure, we have a confidant and self assured dark side immersed Dark Lord of the Sith who in the only life and death situation we see him in isn't phased in the slightest against a being who was already being recognised as the most powerful being in the Galaxy. The point being, we have no reason to believe that he'd be phased by the pressure of an engagement with Yoda, everything we know about him says that he wouldn't, he wasn't the one time we saw him in a life and death situation against someone, and I'd imagine the mechanics of this topic would assume that all characters enter the engagement and aren't weighed down by such traits.

"When it came time to showing those skills in life or death situations… he has very very few accomplishments, and in fact, the one person of credit he did face… pwned him."

That same person was the phenomenally powerful Darth Bane who was intimately familiar with the way Kas'im was fighting during the portion of the duel where he was winning, and Kas'im ultimately had the upper hand in their lightsaber duel anyway, and was more the victim of the environment than Bane's Force prowess. His technique and general ability are praised throughout the battle by both the omniscient narrator and Bane, and he isn't phased by the situation the least.

"I see nothing in his hyperbole"

I've established how it's not hyperbole; continue repeating this falsehood and I'll report you for trolling.

"or feats that lead me to believe that he could beat Yoda."

'me' being the operative word. Most people who are possessive of at least average analytical and evaluative ability will see that he displays plenty that would suggest he could defeat Yoda; defending against a Force attack head on that goes completely beyond the kind of power Yoda throws around in the duel of his life for one, not to mention how well he performs against someone of Bane's calibre.

"You see, I prefer feats WITH narration.. not narration without any feats."

Cool, well not that Kas'im needs it, but he has both.

"Yoda has both… Kas.. well he has narration…"

Kas'im is on the receiving end of narration that relates directly to his lightsaber ability and establishes it as being the greatest we've ever come across, and good displays against someone who collapses temples, creates lightning storms that fill entire halls, and moves at speeds that the eyes of trained Force Users are not capable of registering. The narration that depicts Yoda's lightsaber ability for the most part speaks about how out of practise with the weapon he is, and his displays, while good by a certain standard, are not great. If he's even more powerful than Kas'im at all, the amount's marginal.

I'm curious... What are you basing this notion than Bane is more powerful than Sid? You keep talking about Bane like it's established fact the he's more powerful.. So I'm looking for what you are basing this on. It's important because his fight with Bane is ALL you have in terms of Kas'im fighting somebody of significance. So, you seem to be building up Bane, in an effort to make Kas look better. Problem is, I feel Sid's is more powerful than Bane, and Yoda handles himself better than Kas did against Bane.

I'm not saying that Kas would shrivel up and die if faced with a combat situation. I'm not saying that in the least as he handled himself pretty good against Bane. What I am saying is narration about his skill based on how many forms he's mastered, how skilled he is with a saber, how good a teacher he is... can only go so far. We need to see him in actual combat (life or death) situation against quality opponents to give credence to said narration. Narration alone doesn't cut it. In Yoda we have both narration and combat feats against quality opposition. Such quality in fact, that one could argue he faced the most powerful force user ever, and was winning or at the least stalemated him. That to me, is a better victory than the hollow one Kas had against Bane (he did well but in the end lost).

Now I'm not saying Kss isn't skilled with the saber... the problem is he doesn't have enough combat feats or victories against quality that Yoda does. We judge fights based on feats and narration. Yoda is clearly the victor based on the debating parameters on this site.

Originally posted by NCRotCA

Well firstly, being a master alone is already indicative of incredibly high ability. I could perhaps be more willing to see things from the other point of view if I were dealing with someone who was simply proficient with every form versus a master of a form. A jack of all trades so to speak.

Well would it not be similar but on a higher level in this scenario. Kasim is a master of all forms(the jack of all trades), whilst Yoda had mastered his chosen form to the highest level.. So it really depends on on how high a level of Mastery Kasim possessed at the various forms. Was he a High Level Master of any form - proof?

It also seems to me from the AOTC novel that Yoda has a high level mastery of Soresu. Before he attack Dooku (using his Ataru obviously) he stands in one spot, defending agaisnt ALL of Dooku's lethal strikes. Dooku gets frustrated that he can not hit Yoda. That certainly wasnt Ataru, and to defend against all Dooku's strikes would suggest the High level Mastery. I know this hasnt been confirmed anywhere, but if you read that passage the style used could only have been soresu.

That would also explain why Yoda was considered the best swordsman of the PT era ("If you practised your saber skills as much as you did your wit you would rival master yoda as a swordsman" Kenobi AOTC).

Plus Lucas commented on Yoda's fight in AOTC that we will see why Yoda is called "THE Master"

Originally posted by NCRotCA
while they have their strengths, are also faced with their weaknesses. By mastering every single form, Kas'im gets to use the strengths of each form without exposing their weaknesses. Alternative forms act as an answer to the weakness of a given form, and you could tailor your offence around utilising a form that best exploits the weakness of your opponent's form whilst tailoring your defence to utilising the form that best nullifies its strength.

That would certainly give an advantage. But bear in mind Dooku knew all the weaknesses of Djem So and Ataru and yet still lost to both Anakin and Yoda.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
With regards to Kenobi, while he sure demonstrates himself to be an impressive practitioner of Soresu, I don't know if we should go as far as to call him the absolute master of it. By RotS, he'd only been training with the form for about ten years, and when we consider the fact that he had originally utilised Ataru, as well as the fact that Padawans are usually assigned the form that their Master deems them to have the most potential with, it's quite possible that Obi-Wan's potential with Soresu, and his realised ability by RotS, wasn;t even all that high.

He actually had 13 years from TPM to ROTS to master soresu. As you have already explained how quickly Kasim mastered all forms, it is not beyond reason that somebody talented could completely master a single form in 13 years.

As for the source, it was Mace Windu's opinion in ROTS novel that Kenobi was not only A Master, but THE Master of soresu. An opinion so strong, that he used that as the basis to have Obi-wan as the one to take down Greivous. Of course this would make Obi-wan the best soresu practioner of HIS OWN time period, not of all time.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Regardless, I'm sure if someone was simply strong enough or fast enough or were able to use something alien enough they'd be able to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defences even without being that incredibly good with a single form.

Possibly. But Anakin was as an incredibly competent user of Djem So, with s*** loads of raw power, he didnt seem able to breach Obi-wan's defence.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
and this is Bane we;re talking about, a being who's demonstrated greater Force assisted lightsaber abilities than any other, that far eclipse anything Yoda has demonstrated

Really? Like what? Please expound on your comment.

You speak as if I haven't already provided the evidence in this very thread; moving so fast that he was practically invisible to trained Force Users is the single greatest display of speed, and Force assisted lightsaber ability we've ever come across; before anybody tries to claim "hyperbole" not only is it stated but it has that very effect on the surrounding Force Users, when they're left puzzled as to exactly what happened afterwards.

Really? Like what? Please expound on your comment.

Bane's pretty haxxed, but his best feats don't really compare to Nihilus (planet-buster, possible galaxy-wide telepath) or Luke (galaxy-wide telepath, planet affecting power). Palpatine also has an uber-feat with his Force-Storm but personally I don't think it eclipses the Force Storm Bane did (it would have wiped out the planet, alot bigger than the fleet Palps destroyed, cross-reference what Bane would have been putting into the ritual with size of destruction and I'd say their about the same /theory).

Interestingly though both Visas and Kreia also have pretty legit telepathy feats. Visas senses the Exile from across the galaxy, same as Nihilus and Kreia casually sends Atris a telepathic e-mail across it to. IDK though, I'd need some outsider perspective on thoses ones.

Bane is just a complete monster in personal combat. He's like Marek in that regard except with qauntifiably good saber feats and the Orbalisks. I wouldn't say he's got as much raw power as others, but he could match them in combat imo.

/CONTRAVERSY!

Originally posted by NCRotCA
You speak as if I haven't already provided the evidence in this very thread; moving so fast that he was practically invisible to trained Force Users is the single greatest display of speed, and Force assisted lightsaber ability we've ever come across; before anybody tries to claim "hyperbole" not only is it stated but it has that very effect on the surrounding Force Users, when they're left puzzled as to exactly what happened afterwards.

And Sids didn't? In his duel w/ Windu he and Mace were described as a being nothing but a blur. If Sids was moving this fast against Mace, why wouldn't he against Yoda?

Appearing as nothing from a blur from an unknown perspective =/= appearing practically invisible from the perspective of Force Users. Force Users are equipped with superhuman reaction speed, and appearing as a blur could range from a vast number of speed, the low end of which could be fairly visible.

And Sids didn't? In his duel w/ Windu he and Mace were described as a being nothing but a blur. If Sids was moving this fast against Mace, why wouldn't he against Yoda?

Non-canon.

Also, I don't think the watchers being sith change anything about the feat. Reaction speed can't speed up your sight, which I think relies totally on light to create an image. This is why characters fighting at lightspeed wouldn't make sense, you wouldn't be able to see shit. o_o

A better feat is his 'dozen attacks an instant' or whatever.

"Well would it not be similar but on a higher level in this scenario. Kasim is a master of all forms(the jack of all trades), whilst Yoda had mastered his chosen form to the highest level.. So it really depends on on how high a level of Mastery Kasim possessed at the various forms. Was he a High Level Master of any form - proof?"

Well taking into account that it took him less then ten years to master all seven forms, and then he went on to spend at least twenty years improving upon them, I would think so. I'd imagine once you reach master level you're pretty far into the form's arsenal of moves and sequences; that Kas'im spent more than double the amount of time it took for him to originally master them on perfecting them, would lead me to think that it was pretty high end.

Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon. It's hard to imagine that his skills would be anything but rusty with such a lack of regular use. Comparatively, while Kas'im may have had to divide his time up between all seven forms, that he worked on each one every day and was at least in practise with each one of them, would suggest that his mastery over any single one would have been greater than Yoda's then current mastery of Ataru.

"It also seems to me from the AOTC novel that Yoda has a high level mastery of Soresu. Before he attack Dooku (using his Ataru obviously) he stands in one spot, defending agaisnt ALL of Dooku's lethal strikes. Dooku gets frustrated that he can not hit Yoda. That certainly wasnt Ataru, and to defend against all Dooku's strikes would suggest the High level Mastery. I know this hasnt been confirmed anywhere, but if you read that passage the style used could only have been soresu."

Well all styles have their own defencive moves and sequences and with enough speed and power you should be able to use the most conventional of moves to defend against someone else's attacks, and Yoda does seem like that kind of combatant, relying almost entirely on his Force ability in saber combat, i.e. his speed and agility.

"That would also explain why Yoda was considered the best swordsman of the PT era ("If you practised your saber skills as much as you did your wit you would rival master yoda as a swordsman" Kenobi AOTC)."

Which may fairly well be the case as far as his overall ability is concerned, but certainly not his technique (it's confirmed that Anoon Bondara was the greatest in that respect, at least early PT).

"Plus Lucas commented on Yoda's fight in AOTC that we will see why Yoda is called "THE Master""

I'd imagine this is again referring to his overall ability, rather than specifically his technique.

"That would certainly give an advantage. But bear in mind Dooku knew all the weaknesses of Djem So and Ataru and yet still lost to both Anakin and Yoda."

Well it's definitely not a determining factor or anything, but still a noteworth advantage. Though out of curiosity, did Dooku actually know every weakness of both forms or did he simply claim he did?

"He actually had 13 years from TPM to ROTS to master soresu. As you have already explained how quickly Kasim mastered all forms, it is not beyond reason that somebody talented could completely master a single form in 13 years.

As for the source, it was Mace Windu's opinion in ROTS novel that Kenobi was not only A Master, but THE Master of soresu. An opinion so strong, that he used that as the basis to have Obi-wan as the one to take down Greivous. Of course this would make Obi-wan the best soresu practioner of HIS OWN time period, not of all time."

True.

"Possibly. But Anakin was as an incredibly competent user of Djem So, with s*** loads of raw power, he didnt seem able to breach Obi-wan's defence."

I'd question how much of that raw power he had actually realised by that point, as well as how good a Djem So practitioner he was, and to be fair he did breach his defences with a fair few melee attacks during their duel, which Soresu is designed to defend against, though it could be questioned whetehr Obi-Wan was going all out.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Appearing as nothing from a blur from an unknown perspective =/= appearing practically invisible from the perspective of Force Users. Force Users are equipped with superhuman reaction speed, and appearing as a blur could range from a vast number of speed, the low end of which could be fairly visible.

From the perspective of the chosen one. Hardly an untrained eye.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Non-canon.

Also, I don't think the watchers being sith change anything about the feat. Reaction speed can't speed up your sight, which I think relies totally on light to create an image. This is why characters fighting at lightspeed wouldn't make sense, you wouldn't be able to see shit. o_o

A better feat is his 'dozen attacks an instant' or whatever.

It is canon. We've been over this already. And yes, Mace's lightsaber appearing to Anakin as if it were dozens of blades aatcking from every angle works well too.