Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
****!!! STOP IT!! Need... bacon... yes bacon... that'll ease the pain
Let's IMAGINE what could happen, and then debate that. mhmm?
yeah.
💃
Given that Kas'im is not only someone with well documented abilities, but someone who's well documented abilities make him uniquely impressive in the entire SW canon, and, on paper, give him a specific advantage over anybody in the particular department to which it relates, perhaps you guys' sarcasm is misplaced?
Hardly. What has Yoda done? Been called the greatest foe the Darkness ever knew? Stymied the most powerful Sith Lord in history in saber combat? Been credited by George Lucas has one of only two Jedi able to do so? Been the Grand Master of the Golden Age of the Jedi that consisted of the best saber duelists the order has ever produced and been at the top of them?
F*ck Yoda. Kas'im was called a master.
Except everything you've listed has:
A) Not been established to definitely be the case, as far as the canonicity and nature of the narration is concerned.
B) Has not been definitively explained as to what exactly it means.
C) Has not been substantiated with direct reference to the nature of this thread, being a lightsaber battle.
The fact that his mastery over the lightsaber has been documented to a height unimaginably greater than can be said for anybody else? Given how he also displays the ability to operate under the same realm of power as someone as powerful as a mid-PoT Darth Bane (who demonstrates incredible general ability, with his displays of lightning, telekinesis, speed, and in other areas up until that point in time), when he's able to at least not get overwhelmed by his Force assisted physical power, and defends against an attack the Sith Lord had spent time charging up, he beats Yoda in everything that isn't a strict Force battle.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Except everything you've listed has:A) Not been established to definitely be the case, as far as the canonicity and nature of the narration is concerned.
B) Has not been definitively explained as to what exactly it means.
C) Has not been substantiated with direct reference to the nature of this thread, being a lightsaber battle.
You don't have to convince me, Kas'sim all the way. Obviously.
A: The ROTS novelization is HARDLY canon. More like a fanfic.
B: Exactly! Because the word "foe" can mean anything right before Yoda goes into combat and "goes forth to war!" It could most definitly mean that Yoda simply was the biggest OBSTACLE the sith had ever stood against! Yoda was always so good at figuring out what the Sith was doing, and was always politically stymieing Sidious at EVERY turn, afterall. It would be different if maybe Yoda had stood by and done nothing while Sidious grabbed all the political power in the galaxy.
After all, Kas'sim, fought BANE in a duel, and was winning. And we all know Bane is WAY stronger than Sidious was. Common sense.
I'm on your side: Yoda's a chump. Anybody who can stand up to Bane is going to wipe the floor with someone who can stand up to Sidious.
Bane used the force to create a Holocron after all.
Again, the sarcasm becomes less effective when you're actually saying what's true.
Either provide an argument that relates directly to the thread and involves the fully explained application of existing, credible evidence, or stop posting, otherwise I will have no choice but to report you for trolling.
There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.
It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.
It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.
It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.
It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had lost before he was born.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new.
While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?
He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .
After reading through the passage, I do believe that in all likelihood, the statement ("he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known") is from the perspective of the omniscient narrator, and that the passage fits into the SW canon perfectly nicely.
What I would question, is what exactly it means, in context. Is the Darkness in reference to the Dark Side of the Force? A timeless force that can't be permanently defeated but simply stymied? A Force that represents everything there is that's bad in the universe? In the context of such a being, would the duration to which you would be in a position to contest against such a force not be pertinent? What Yoda represents is a very powerful Jedi Master that has been in a position to fight for the Light Side of the Force and against the Dark Side for centuries. To lead and inspire millions of Jedi over that same period of time. To build relations between the Jedi Order and the Republic and have a personal impact on general peace and prosperity in the wider Galaxy. What we have in Yoda, within the context of this being, is not only a highly effective foe, but a persistent one. I am personally of the opinion that it's likely that every relavent quality at hand here: his combat ability, his leadership, his life span, what he represents to the Jedi and the entire Galaxy etc., were factored into the statement in question, and at the very least, the fact remains that it cannot be definitively established that it's in absolute reference to his combat ability.
IDK Neb, it kinda seems like you're talking out of your ass here. Bear in mind the context, which is that he just realised that he can't defeat Sidious in a one on one duel. Also, all of whats mentioned: 'the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe' has combat connotations. Plus 'Devastatingly powerful' simply couldn't mean anything other than actual power imo.
Not that it matters, its from Yoda's perspective, so its a fallible opinion.
The immediate context is that he realises that he couldn't defeat Sidious in something that is identified as not being the battle they were currently engaged in.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had lost before he was born.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force.
You could say those words have combat connotations, though I feel they would be more appropriately described as adversarial connotations, and given that they are made with respect to a timeless enemy that cannot be destroyed but simply delayed and contested, then I think Yoda's lifespan, and his capacity to fight against such an enemy for such a long duration, becomes far more pertinent, then when you're dealing with the type of being that can be destroyed entirely in a moment.
Something can be devestating, fierce, or implaccable in a number of manners not related to combat.
Also, I don't think that it is coming from Yoda's PoV (which would actually help my case). What's from Yoda's PoV is that he "just-didn't-have it", and that alone imo. The descriptions are coming from the omniscient narrator as he describes Yoda arriving at that conclusion. It doesn't seem like those descriptions would logically flow with such chain of reasoning either.
The most likely truth is that, based off of those descriptions, Yoda's position among his entire life span to combat against the dark side was the greatest it had ever been for any given foe of the darkside.
Also, can you people stop calling me Neb. I gather he's someone that you all know but all I can tell you is that I am not him and that you'll have to take my word for it.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.He had lost before he was born.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force.
Oh God. This just proves that its from Yoda's perspective. No omniscient perspective could be this stupid.
Gawddamn PT Yoda is lame.
Also, I don't think that it is coming from Yoda's PoV (which would actually help my case). What's from Yoda's PoV is that he "just-didn't-have it", and that alone imo. The descriptions are coming from the omniscient narrator as he describes Yoda arriving at that conclusion. It doesn't seem like those descriptions would logically flow with such chain of reasoning either.The most likely truth is that, based off of those descriptions, Yoda's position among his entire life span to combat against the dark side was the greatest it had ever been for any given foe of the darkside.
Also, can you people stop calling me Neb. I gather he's someone that you all know but all I can tell you is that I am not him and that you'll have to take my word for it. [/B]
Everything (that you posted at least) from after the truth line is Yoda's perspective. The narrator is merely extrapolating on his 'epithany'. Notice how at the end it's still talking about his direct thoughts, showing that the narrator is still concerned with giving the reader Yoda's perspective on the matter 'He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .
Also, as I understand it, the Dark Side of the Force essentially represents every bad trait that a living being can possess, right? From evil, hatred, anger to even such things as envy, cowardice, lazyness etc. Or am I wrong?
Yeah I think you are. The Force is an energy-field that binds life and perhaps even a sentient being in it's own right. The Darkside does not represent evil traits, it's just influenced by them, and maybe composed of them. The Darkside for example can exist independently from a person in say a Force nexus.
IDK, the Force is ****ing wierd at times. It doesn't help that every writer has his own ideas of what it is. I'm just sticking to Lucas' though- Its an energy field created by all life that binds all life together.
Originally posted by truejedi
He was beating Bane. That's pretty obvious. I don't know what more you want. His technical skill is second to none, and Yoda is gonna get roooooolllled.
So he was winning but DIDN'T win.. nice... So he beat NOBDODY of note for all his acclaimed skill? I see, I thought we put more importance to actual feats than we do hyperbole around here? Lines stated someone is the best duelist without actual feats to back it up, are just that, lines stating something. He has NEVER beaten anybody of note, so all this acting like he's the best swordsman the Jedi have ever seen is simply laughable