It's not juvenalism, it's the fact that gorgon killing phobos doesnt weaken the case for Ares.
Logan is more durable and has much better damage soak, that's for sure, but the argument that was being carried out here is that he was too skilled/fast for ares, not that he was tough enough to take a beating and eventually land crippling blows and be the one to walk away because of his HF.
Originally posted by 753
It's not juvenalism, it's the fact that gorgon killing phobos doesnt weaken the case for Ares.Logan is more durable and has much better damage soak, that's for sure, but the argument that was being carried out here is that he was too skilled/fast for ares, not that he was tough enough to take a beating and eventually land crippling blows and be the one to walk away because of his HF.
You claimed that Phobos was evenly matched with Gorgon hence Ares can outfight Wolverine...
But Phobos was killed by Gorgon so it very much does weaken the case if you want to use him as a bar.
The case is only further weakened when you see what allowed Ares to "outfight" Phobos are attributes that don't matter against a person like Wolverine.
As for the last part.. sorry that hasn't been the pillar to my argument. It wasn't what was being discussed when I re-entered this thread.
No my claim was that Wolverine's superior skill and speed - the central argument that was being carried through most of the thread - wouldn't put him past Ares who could beat his son who was roughly on par with Gorgon. The fact that Gorgon took him out doesn't raise the bar for Ares in a fight against wolverine skillwise, because Gorgon also defeated logan.
I feel this has been exhausted by now.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWares was holding back, he even told phobos he was mistepping and wasnt good enough to be him
Ares' beaten his son, but from what I've seen (feel free to correct me, haven't read the actual story, just the scans), he simply tanked most of the attacks and then grabbed him.If Hulk did that to let's say Temugin, you'd say he's more skilled than the latter? Just a food for thought...
Originally posted by 753
No my claim was that Wolverine's superior skill and speed - the central argument that was being carried through most of the thread - wouldn't put him past Ares who could beat his son who was roughly on par with Gorgon. The fact that Gorgon took him out doesn't raise the bar for Ares in a fight against wolverine skillwise, because Gorgon also defeated logan.I feel this has been exhausted by now.
It is a bit.
It wasn't my argument, nor was it what you responded to when we engaged... but.. fair 'nuff.
Originally posted by jinzin
So what? lol "what" is exactly what I'm trying to explain to you....Ares did not mirror the skill, speed, or agility that Phobos exhibited in combat. He owned phobos by tanking shots and overpowering him with brute force.
Brute force happens to be near useless on Wolverine and he can't be disarmed.
Ares claims that the way he's able to deal with Phobos resides in predictability... that doesn't translate to him being able to "predict" Logan's fighting skills... unpredictability is something Wolverine has thrived off of in combat against plenty of opponents who have powers/abilities that are analogous with actual battlefield analysis and adaptation.
Tanking damage isn't really an issue. Think most of us figured on Ares' ability to deal with shots, but that throat cut did hinder him for a moment which doesn't look good for him...
You can argue that Phobos did better than Wolverine against Gorgon but at the same time the reasons he didn't do well against Ares simply don't hold weight over Wolverine.
He can't be disarmed of his weapons and grabbing him would be the worst option for Ares lest he wanted to lose an arm.
The possibility of Ares successfully grabbing hold of Wolverine's arms/wrists and neutralizing the claws without getting cut or losing fingers/hands/etc is pretty slim.
How can you saw brute force is nearly useless against Wolverine when Ares put him down in one shot? Had he continued by stomping Wolverine's head in Logan be knocked out. And between the two, Ares' sword and axe give him better reach than those claws. If a punch from him dazed Logan, how's Logan going to hold back his sword swing with those claws? He doesn't have the strength to match Ares' at all. And a throat slashed to Logan's throat slow Logan as well. You make it sound like Wolverine is going to dance around Ares. Daken had his pheromones to mess with Ares' head which Logan has none.
As for Gorgon, Alex did much better than Wolverine. The thing he lack is that doesn't have a healing factor at all. Hell, Wolverine would've been dead as well had it not been for his healing factor when he fought Gorgon. Ares tanked two shots from Alex and still managed to take him down and would've killed him that instance if he wanted to. Wolverine was lying face down after just one shot from Ares. Brute force obviously is a deciding factor in this fight. Logan doesn't dance around everybody he fights; he isn't going to do that to Ares either.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
How can you saw brute force is nearly useless against Wolverine when Ares put him down in one shot? Had he continued by stomping Wolverine's head in Logan be knocked out. And between the two, Ares' sword and axe give him better reach than those claws. If a punch from him dazed Logan, how's Logan going to hold back his sword swing with those claws? He doesn't have the strength to match Ares' at all. And a throat slashed to Logan's throat slow Logan as well. You make it sound like Wolverine is going to dance around Ares. Daken had his pheromones to mess with Ares' head which Logan has none.As for Gorgon, Alex did much better than Wolverine. The thing he lack is that doesn't have a healing factor at all. Hell, Wolverine would've been dead as well had it not been for his healing factor when he fought Gorgon. Ares tanked two shots from Alex and still managed to take him down and would've killed him that instance if he wanted to. Wolverine was lying face down after just one shot from Ares. Brute force obviously is a deciding factor in this fight. Logan doesn't dance around everybody he fights; he isn't going to do that to Ares either.
It was Wolverine written by Daniel Way. Even I could knock him out.
Logan would just cut his sword in two.
Throat slashed? Healed before. Dancing around the bricks? Happened, too.
Wolverine was missing a part of his soul in that fight.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It was Wolverine written by Daniel Way. Even I could knock him out.Logan would just cut his sword in two.
Throat slashed? Healed before. Dancing around the bricks? Happened, too.
Wolverine was missing a part of his soul in that fight.
lol, Wolverine is going to cut Adamantine in two? He couldn't even cut Mr X's sword so let's not start.
Got his ass kicked by a brick? Happened before. Danced into Ares' fist? Happened before too. Got his face put down with his ass up? Yeah, scans are on page one.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lol, Wolverine is going to cut Adamantine in two? He couldn't even cut Mr X's sword so let's not start.Got his ass kicked by a brick? Happened before. Danced into Ares' fist? Happened before too. Got his face put down with his ass up? Yeah, scans are on page one.
All of his weapons are made of adamantine? Funny, because Daken cut his cleaver with his bone claws with no problem. Yeah, you heard me right - bone claws, not muramasa ones.
Using Wayverine example, wow.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
All of his weapons are made of adamantine? Funny, because Daken cut his cleaver with his bone claws with no problem. Yeah, you heard me right - bone claws, not muramasa ones.Using Wayverine example, wow.
Which book was this?
Getting caught by a brick and knocked out has never happened outside of Way's book before? I guess you got me there. 😏
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Which book was this?Getting caught by a brick and knocked out has never happened outside of Way's book before? I guess you got me there. 😏
New She-Hulk. Dark Avengers vs. Lyra. I can search for the issue number later, if you want. Maybe I even uploaded the scan on my account, can't remember.
Sure it did. It can happen, but Ares has to work for it.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
New She-Hulk. Dark Avengers vs. Lyra. I can search for the issue number later, if you want. Maybe I even uploaded the scan on my account, can't remember.Sure it did. It can happen, but Ares has to work for it.
Yeah, thanks. I recall seeing scans of that book somewhere. Don't remember the fight. I skim through it but didn't read anything.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
How can you saw brute force is nearly useless against Wolverine when Ares put him down in one shot?
Ummmm.. easily? 😕
By taking a retrospective look at Wolverine's entire career shrugging off blows from people as strong, stronger, or vastly stronger than Ares.
OH! And by not blowing one feat out of proportion even though it was written by Daniel Way.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Had he continued by stomping Wolverine's head in Logan be knocked out.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And between the two, Ares' sword and axe give him better reach than those claws.
Wolverine has lots of examples of doing just that with opponents, but the most obvious example here would be to point out Thor and his hammer swings missing Wolverine while Wolverine landed strikes.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
If a punch from him dazed Logan, how's Logan going to hold back his sword swing with those claws? He doesn't have the strength to match Ares' at all.
First off.. we already know Ares has an astronomical strength advantage... no one here is arguing otherwise.
Second: No one is claiming that Wolverine will attempt to block Ares' assaults.. That's barely going to do anything but get him launched away.
So I'm failing to understand what exactly you think you're doing by bringing those points up.
Third:.... ARES. DID. NOT. DAZE. WOLVERINE.
At the very least, that's a notion you can't support with proof.
All we see there is Ares knock Wolverine down with a sucker punch... sorry but is that something that he shouldn't be able to do? 🤨
When it comes to Wolverine himself, there's no stress lines in his arms to express a struggle to get himself back up.
His thought boxes are displayed; his thoughts are not slowed, hampered or unclear.
When we see his face, he looks completely noncholant about the situation.
From all appearances Logan is none the worse for wear and it's illogical to assume that a knock down is the same as dazing an opponent to set up for a KO especially when that opponent does not appear to be dazed.
Fourth: It's Daniel Way who had a tendancy to write Logan's healing factor and damage soak all over the place for the sake of the plot. Again, Ares being unable to register anything but a knockdown there is not a good sign for Ares.
Fith: I feel at this point it's prudent to bring up Wolverine's long laundry list of tanking shots like that or better to no effect during in-fight panels. But since I don't feel like bringing up half of Logan's career it should suffice just to assure you..... He has.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And a throat slashed to Logan's throat slow Logan as well.
Hmmmmmm......
NO 😐 :
Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine (classic version before the bone claw era advnaced mutation and upgraded healing factor, 1982) drugged with poison designed to kill him awakes and attests that he barely made it through the drugs, he awakes hurting "like blazes", even so he takes 3 strikes hitting lethal/paralysing nerve clusters, possibly a forth, wipes his face and attacks, he continues to take 4 powerful blows and STILL is shown fighting back. This single feat indisputably discounts DD's 4 times over.
1. http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6344/43317653nd9.jpg
2. http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/707/56560613iq3.jpg
3. http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/770/95343672pg0.jpg
4. http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7767/46660397kk2.jpg
5. http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9242/55679963nh9.jpg1. Mystique slices Wolverine's throat while Wolverine's been chasing after her nonstop 3 days with no food nor sleep, blown up at least several times and shot to shit... it does nothing:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5880/86392439vs0.jpg2. Wolverine gets his throat cut by X-23 his reaction is to toss her on her ass and threaten her life.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9162/x236uo5.png3. Second fight with Shingen. Shingen swings his sword down on Wolverine's neck, Wolverine grabs the blade and draws Shingen in for the kill:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...olvieii7cw8.jpg4. Wolverine's incinerated from head to toe, as he's writhing on the ground Typhoid cuts his throat with a huge knife. Wolverine bats her away for her troubles and pounces after her:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...oidmary3xc0.jpg5. Kitty Pride uses a katana blade to puncture write through Wolverine's neck it does nothing:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/...typride3po2.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/...ideagainzr3.jpg6. Spiderwoman throws Wolverine to the ground and stabs him in the neck with his own claws.. we all know how much that did for her:
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/...derwomantj3.jpg7. Wolverine takes a sword strike to the side of his neck from a student of Shingen's it pushes him into berserker mode:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/...nebrage2wb6.jpg8. Wolverine having already fought Mr. X's personalized army (who stated to have shot Wolverine, burned him, and stabbed him, as well as a panel of him weathering an explosion) and then fought with his high ranking assassins, simply mills about with a knife jabbed through his throat, only to pull it out and use it as a weapon:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/34...xsarmy18tv1.jpg9. Wolverine's been stabbed with a sword from Gorgon the force of which was so great it embedded him into a concrete wall, he's still talking, and as soon as the sword is pulled out, he's up on his feet and after Gorgon.
1. http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7180/swordpryle5.jpg
2. http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/...wordpry2ji3.jpg10. Wolverine discusses how he and Sabretooth trade blows that would kill a dozen men over.
1. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8356/death0lt1.jpg
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You make it sound like Wolverine is going to dance around Ares.
Your words, not mine.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Daken had his pheromones to mess with Ares' head which Logan has none.
He was playing head games for sure, doesn't change the fact that when Ares tried to squash him, he failed.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
As for Gorgon, Alex did much better than Wolverine.
Wolverine was also missing half of his life force/soul during that encounter... He still did better.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The thing he lack is that doesn't have a healing factor at all. Hell, Wolverine would've been dead as well had it not been for his healing factor when he fought Gorgon.
His HF is not inconsequential, so it's fairly illogical to brush it aside.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Ares tanked two shots from Alex and still managed to take him down and would've killed him that instance if he wanted to.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Wolverine was lying face down after just one shot from Ares. Brute force obviously is a deciding factor in this fight. Logan doesn't dance around everybody he fights; he isn't going to do that to Ares either.
Logan doesn't dance around everyone he fights, but that's partially because he likes to get into the thick of things head on...in other words he can when he wants to.
Is he going to do that with Ares? Dunno... Probably not.
But given the results of his fights with guys like Deathshead, Namor, Herc and Thor things don't look like Ares has some suitable advantage in this fight that makes him anything even remotely close to a sure bet.
