Originally posted by Utrigita
http://simulator.down2earth.eu/
That's pretty cool, especially the data view.
Originally posted by jaden101
Any of these spells been cast 10‘s of thousands of miles into space?
Argumentum ex silencio, logical fallacy, moving on.
Did I say he could travel at light speed instantly? no. in fact I even said that he flies about (in space where none of the potter spells have ever been used or reached.) until he reaches his max speed at which point once he starts his descent towards Hogwarts it would be that fast that the wizards would be standing still.
This works until he hits the atmosphere, where he is either propelled into outer space or enters it, which would lead to instant deceleration due to friction and air drag. Did Superman ever demonstrate the ability to fly at the supposed speed through the atmosphere, even when it would have come in handy? The answer is: No. He didn't. So why would we assume that he can? Because it fits our side of the argument? Last time I checked, this was called "cherry picking" and another of those nasty fallacies.
Even if we use Superman‘s own admission of his weight as 220lbs from the 1st superman movie and so don't give creedence to the theory that his strength and durability are because of huge mass/density then 220lbs crashing into the earth at lightspeed or close to it would release a colossal amount of energy (perhaps ddm would oblige us with the maths and its effect on hogwarts and the surrounding area) and wipe out all the wizards.
It would unleash energy in the exajoule range, about as much as the impact of an asteroid six time the size of the Cheops Pyramide at a speed of 20,000 km/s. That would quarantee some pretty awesome destruction.
The problem: As aforementioned, Superman has never demonstrated the ability to reach FTL speed in the atmosphere and even if he accelerates in outer space, flying into the atmosphere at that speed would be equivalent to slamming into a giant brick wall. There is no way for him to reach the ground with that speed, nothing even close to it. So this scenario is nothing but bullshit coming from a person neither capable of grasping physics nor capable to accept the limitations of his favored character.
Please do me a favor: Put a minimum of thought into the text you're typing before hitting the reply button. Thanks in advance.
Argumentum ex silencio, logical fallacy, moving on.
😬
Isn't this the stupid thing you guys are basing your argument on? He may not be able to rpove that the spells down extend that far, but its another fallacy to assume they can without evidence. Thus, you can't use arguments that rely on them being able to do so.
The problem: As aforementioned, Superman has never demonstrated the ability to reach FTL speed in the atmosphere
Are you suggesting that the wind is going to stop him or something?
Originally posted by Borbarad
The problem: As aforementioned, Superman has never demonstrated the ability to reach FTL speed in the atmosphere and even if he accelerates in outer space, flying into the atmosphere at that speed would be equivalent to slamming into a giant brick wall. There is no way for him to reach the ground with that speed, nothing even close to it. So this scenario is nothing but bullshit coming from a person neither capable of grasping physics nor capable to accept the limitations of his favored character.
Except his mass would be infinte. Thus the force due to gravity would completley nullify the force due to air resistence since gravitiy's force would infinte while air resistance would be finite. Of course, this is under the assumption that for some reason Superman does not create a gravitational force as he would be incredibly massive and we see that this is the case in the first Superman movie.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you suggesting that the wind is going to stop him or something?
Superman lifting the island defied physics, no need to start now.
Originally posted by Borbarad
[i]So this scenario is nothing but bullshit coming from a person neither capable of grasping physics nor capable to accept the limitations of his favored character.Please do me a favor: Put a minimum of thought into the text you're typing before hitting the reply button. Thanks in advance.
While I agree (because I pointed it out) that Superman was never shown approaching FTL speeds in the atmosphere for human safety reasons, Jaden is one of the last posters on KMC that you could say does not have a "capable grasp of physics." He's one of the few people with which you can have a nice physics discussion. Sure, he's not into calculating a shit ton of stuff, but he's definitely not an idiot.
I'd also like to point out a very good point you brought up (or was it Creshosk?): if Superman slams into Hogwarts' shield charms (if we assume they hold up to blunt physical force), it would slam the whole place into the ground and Newton's First Law of Motion will cause everyone to experience a nice head-bursting when they hit the ceiling due it taking far longer than the movement of the entire grounds than it would for the pull of gravity to take over and keep them on the ground. That's an insta-win, assuming the shields can hold up.
But I could be wrong...how much momentum would superman have to generate in order to transfer his momentum to the grounds of Hogwarts in a manner that requires the whole of the place to move about 10 feet in almost an instant?
You'd have to find the compression (Poissen's Ratio would be employed in compression physics) information on the various layers of earth to 10 feet UNDER the estimated bottom portion of the shield charms that envelop around the grounds. How far into the ground does it go? Since we do not know that, we cannot calculate that. We COULD make an estimate and say that it extends 10 feet under the grounds. Then we need to find out all layers of earth to 20 feet based on the earth found around London. Then find out the compression data for all of those layers and use them in a set for our calculation (because the layers would each have their own separate compression numbers so it has to be calculated as a set, not as an average), and then figure out how fast Superman has to travel to deliver enough force to push the grounds 10 feet into the ground in less than...say.... a tenth of a second. There's also incorporating how much the earth "moves" out of the way as it is "squished" from the compression forces.
That's a lot of work. Too much work. It require several unknowns and compression information on sediments that I'm sure are not readily available. We would then need to calculate the mass of Hogwarts and the ground included in the shield charm. That would probably be easier to do than the other calculation.
Once you have that...the force Superman has to deliver will be the easiest thing to calculate. I believe that that calculation would be much less than a large asteroid as a large asteroid, iirc, hits the earth and continues to "fly" well over a thousand feet into the crust. So it's definitely less force than a large asteroid.
Anyway, I am almost certain that superman does not have to fly very close to c, at all, in order to generate the momentum he needs.
100kg*25,000,000m/s = 2,500,000,000p
25,000,000 is less than 1% the speed of light.
I did some quick math and the "resting" momentum of hogwarts and the grounds up to 10 feet deep resulted in a number that was close to 20,000,000,000p, which is obviously much greater than superman traveling at less than 1% c. So my estimate is wrong. Superman would have to be traveling much faster to transfer that kinetic energy to Hogwarts enough to burst some heads (sinking it 10 feet in less than .1 seconds requires much more momentum than 2,500,000,000p).
Originally posted by ares834
Except his mass would be infinte. Thus the force due to gravity would completley nullify the force due to air resistence since gravitiy's force would infinte while air resistance would be finite. Of course, this is under the assumption that for some reason Superman does not create a gravitational force as he would be incredibly massive and we see that this is the case in the first Superman movie.
His momentum would definitely not be infinite: that's simply 100Kg*299,792,458m/s= 29979245800p 😄
The atmosphere would DEFINITELY remove some of his momentum and the farther down into the atmosphere he flew, the more energy that would be removed from that kinetic system because air gets "denser."
This asumes, illogically, that he can even obtain 100% c. Let's just assume that it is 99.99% c, just for the sake of humoring the idea.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nerd!It really freaks me out that you guys can do that. Maybe American math courses are just better or something. 🙁
I'm American and learned most of that stuff in college and some of it on my own.
Also, a hint at what I did to find Hogwarts mass: I pretended that it was a pyramid. 😐 Generally, a castle can be reduced to a pyramid in mass if you assume half the height (you have to account for the air volume of the castle). I'm not even kidding: it works out most of the time with some degree of error.
Originally posted by ares834
I'm pretty sure it would be infinite, after all his mass should be infinity Kg. Unless we ignore the mass change (which we resonably could).
You're right about his mass and that's called the Lorentz factor. But a straight up ignoring of relativistic effects (which was the point) would make it easier to use.
I think there's a chart in one of my old books that has the lorentz factors that you have to apply. BRB. (wait about 5 mins for the edit.)
K, couldn't find it, so I just calculated it from scratch and the lorentz factor is 70.7 at 99.99% c. So multiply my previous answer by 70.7 to get his real momentum.
That's 2,119,905,798,311p
Originally posted by Robtard
He can move faster than light, think if was you that pointed it out with Einstein's theory.
It's retarded that he can as there's not logical explanation for how. I also pointed out that he didn't move that fast in the atmosphere due to the danger it may cause the 'hoomanz'. So he waits until he's in space before he does his 10x light thing. But, if we assume that he does his thing, like Jaden suggests...let's go with 99.99% c just to be safe and watch his momentum decrease the closer towards the surface he gets. That was Borbarad's point, I believe.
Did Superman ever demonstrate the ability to fly at the supposed speed through the atmosphere
In your words...
Argumentum ex silencio, logical fallacy, moving on.
Did Superman ever demonstrate the ability to fly at the supposed speed through the atmosphere, even when it would have come in handy?
3 letter...One of the P...One of the is I and one of them is S.
he problem: As aforementioned, Superman has never demonstrated the ability to reach FTL speed in the atmosphere and even if he accelerates in outer space, flying into the atmosphere at that speed would be equivalent to slamming into a giant brick wall. There is no way for him to reach the ground with that speed, nothing even close to it. So this scenario is nothing but bullshit coming from a person neither capable of grasping physics nor capable to accept the limitations of his favored character.
Highly amusing that you're limiting a character to the laws of physics despite the fact that his very action of reaching the speed of light is in of itself breaking the laws of physics seeing as for mass to reach the speed of light it takes infinite energy.
But I'll humour you.
If we take the depth of atmosphere capable of generating friction with when Superman re-enters the atmosphere then the exosphere and thermosphere can be ruled out which leaves us mesosphere and shallower which is a depth of 85km which is also where small meteors are shown burning up.
Now...He'd be travelling at 299,792km per second meaning it would take him 0.0002835 seconds before impacting on the ground. So the question is how much would the friction generated in that time slow his momentum?
Not really my area...Anyone?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say not that much...So even if he impacts at 0.9999999% the speed of light then it's going to cause far more damage than is needed to obliterate Hogwarts and everyone in it before they even have time to think about thinking.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's retarded that he can as there's not logical explanation for how. I also pointed out that he didn't move that fast in the atmosphere due to the danger it may cause the 'hoomanz'. So he waits until he's in space before he does his 10x light thing. But, if we assume that he does his thing, like Jaden suggests...let's go with 99.99% c just to be safe and watch his momentum decrease the closer towards the surface he gets. That was Borbarad's point, I believe.
Superman isn't logical, not even a little bit. Trying to treat him as if he were a meteorite is flawed.
Fool's "bloodlusted" here (why I assume he'd be willing to risk his own life slamming into the earth as such), why not go with greater than light as seen, he travels back in time a bit and slams into Hogwarts 6 mins before the fight starts and obliterates.
Originally posted by jaden101
Now...He'd be travelling at 299,792km per second meaning it would take him 0.0002835 seconds before impacting on the ground. So the question is how much would the friction generated in that time slow his momentum?Not really my area...Anyone?
You can use the drag force formula: which is Fd = (1/2)*Da*(v^2)*Cd*A
Applying the equation to the thread, you just have to substitute:
We know the density of air at STP to be 1.225 kg/m3.
We know the drag coefficient for a human body is going to be between .4 and .5 due to our shape being slightly round by not quick a 45 degree angle.
We can figure out the orthographic projection (which is the area of the object being affected by the drag force...picture taking a slice of the large area that could possibly be affected by the air...that would be the orthographic projection or "acted on surface area as the object moves through the fluid). I'm going to throw out there, that the orthographic projection is just .66 m^2. That's close, maybe a bit too big...but it should be fine.
We know the velocity of the object.
Put it all together and what do we have?
Fd = 1/2*(1.225 kg/m3)*(299,792,458 m/s)*.45*(.66m^2)
Now, before I calculate that out....we cannot forget that he goes from 0 resistance to our STP Fd (force of drag at STP).
I do not know how to appropriately calculate that out but we can just apply a .5 to the final answer. Why? Because the force of drag goes from 0 to the final Fd. Average those two out as density should increase, linearly, as you approach sea-level (close to STP at 0 degrees C). At the moment, that sounds "sound."
STP = standard temperature and pressure
c = speed of light
Fd= force of drag
A = orthographic projection
Cd = drag coefficient
Da = density of the fluid (in this case, it's the atmosphere of the Earth)
v = velocity of Superman before entering the atmosphere