Federation of planets and Borg vs Hogwarts

Originally posted by dadudemon
You sure? Didn't Hermione say it would "keep out the physical but not powerful magic"? My wife has book 7 around the house somewhere...but I really do not feel like reading that shit just to fine the one or two times it is mentioned.

However, none of that counts in the MVF. What was said about it in pat 1 of movie 7?

[i]For the ones that protect from the physical, particle beams would be held out, assuming that there's not feasible uppper limit to the "physical" aspect of the shielding. However, radiation of any kind, as I showed in an earlier post on page 2, would get right through.[/b]

Would they keep the particle beams out since a tachyon beam is simply any particle that can move faster than the speed of light.

And the borg utilize tachyons for their trans warp conduits, and there was a sustained tachyon beam used as a weapon as well.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I can't seem to find that quote.

It's where she talks about the shields, what they are for, etc.

It should be towards the first 3rd of the book. The wiki would not have contained the same information: it's there, somewhere. Looks like I have to stop being lazy...but I don't WANT to read the whole damn book. 🙁 Surely it's out there in a diigital form. Maybe I could "ctrl+f" it on a digital book.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Therein lies the queston. Alpha radaiton is a helium atom without any electrons. It's stll has two neutron and two protons, just no electrons. So if radiation can get through (electromagnetic radation carred by the photon in the form of light.)

Would they keep the particle beams out since a tachyon beam is simply any particle that can move faster than the speed of light.

And the borg utilize tachyons for their trans warp conduits, and there was a sustained tachyon beam used as a weapon as well.

I would assume that physical would be any particle or particles that had mass. If it has inertia, then it doesn't get through.

Tachyons, though...is a whole other ball game. A tachyon can, theoretically, pass completely through the earth. Also, it is impossible for it to interact with matter (as we understand the theoretical particle.) Additionally, we do not know the extend to how the magic blocks. We only have the "physical." The furthest we can take that concept is all "physical" affects of matter that do not violate special relativity. Those that do could not be classified as falling under "physical" in relativistic terms. They would, by very definition, be a-physical.

Originally posted by Zampanó
I don't think that we have any information about Dumbledore's range.

We do have information about the effects of the spell itself. When targeting an Harry, the momentum of the particles in Harry's body was diminished. Emissions from his body were not affected at all. Light still reflected from his clothing and skin, based off of Ron and Hermione's testimony in the Hospital Wing, as well as the shot on Harry's descent itself.

In short: No.

Momentum isn't motion, but the energy residing within a moving object. If Dumbledore "arrests" that momentum, it means that no energy in the internal system (read: Harry's body) can be produced, consumed, inserted or extracted. This would effectively stop all body functions (because they usually consume or generate energy, making changes to the system). Light would still be reflected from Harry's body, with the exception that, because no light would be consumed any longer (energy entering the system of the body is kept out), his skin and hair would be perceived as being bright white (all light being reflected). We don't know if that happens, because the movie doesn't show the final result of the spell.

And I don't know what "testimony" of Ron and Hermione you're talking about. They just tell Harry that he fell of his broom and that Dumbledore saved him. We could see both before the screen went black (while Harry was still falling, so the effect of the spell couldn't be seen). There is nothing about the "how" mentioned or shown after Dumbledore performs his spell. In the movie, the scene looks like this:

YouTube video

As you see, the screen fades to black while Dumbledore is still saying the incantation. After this Harry wakes up and is told that he dropped from his broom, that Dumbledore saved him and that Dumbledore went nuts on the Dementors. Nothing else.

That inability to nullify the movement of photons means that Borg energy weapons will operate normally.

The spell would keep energy from being released from the system (e.g. the Borg cube) which means that no form of energy would be produced, consumed or exerted. The entire cube would be put into stasis, untouched by events outside and unable to do anything.

Suggesting that Harry's life functions were turned off is pure speculation. Neither the film nor the books suggest that effect. The most that we can say arresto momentum accomplishes is a diminishment of bulk movement in a direction (i.e. a body's motion in a particular direction). To assert anything about its effects on the vibrations and internal movements of that body is nothing more than idle speculation, which will receive no more respect from me than would the argument 'NO U.'

Nope. Suggesting that Harry's life functions were turned off is following the laws of physics. And I was, by the way, talking about the effects of another spell, which has been implied to exist in "Chamber of Secrets". That spell would cause similiar effects to the gaze of the Basilisk, which literally put the people being hit into stasis, as we've all seen. And while it has been hinted that this could only be done "by a powerful Dark Wizard", Hogwarts, fortunatelly, has good old Snape around.

The orbital bombardment will commence as planned.

First: Even if the OP has people showing them the exact location of Hogwarts, the usual spells protecting the castle would still prevent them from actually plotting it.

Second: Even ignoring the stuff I typed down above: The last orbital bombardment I've seen coming from Borg was in "First Contact" and they failed to kill one guy in a rocket silo without protection. You really think they could effectively exterminate Hogwarts (by essentially shooting into the blue), before the Wizards start counter measures?

And the "sunlight gets through so Borg energy weapons will pass" argument is quite nonsensical. If sunlight not passing through shields was a prerequisite for them being able to block ST weaponary, we wouldn't see a single ST ship in the movies or shows, because they wouldn't reflect any sunlight, since that would be deflected by the shields. If that was the case, we would just see bright white spheres flying around in space. Obviously, that isn't the case.

You may also just think about Harry's invisibility cloak. Technically, you shouldn't be able to see anything outside when being under it (because light would simply pass through the zone), yet that happens and we also perceive the people inside it. Obviously the same is true for protective charms. In "Deadly Hallows" we can see a Death Eater face to face with Hermione, while the latter is within the limits of her own protective spell. While Hermione does see him, he can't see her at all but is able to smell her perfume.

So the shields do let air pass, yet do some strange things to sunlight (at least the visible spectrum). But given that they do repell spells, prevent people from flying into the castle with broomsticks or apparating into the ground, they obviously do offer some protection against matter / energy entering.

Well, if air gets through, cannot the Federation bomb the school with Trilithium torpedo's? Iirc from the DS9 episode 'For the Uniform' it releases a deadly nerve gas the size of a freaking continent. The Defiant at least has some, and was in one of the TNG movies, so maybe.

And while it's true that the shields 'offer some protection against matter / energy entering.' It is nowhere near enough, or has the feats to stop an orbital bombardment.

Agreed. ✅

We are clearly talking at cross purposes. When I said "momentum," I meant it literally as "in classical mechanics, momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg·m/s, or, equivalently, N·s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object (p = mv)." Look at how that will affect the outcome of the spell.

Arresto momentum was aimed at Harry Potter. That is, the total assembled biological components of the human body that lead to the consciousness calling itself "Harry Potter." The spell was not aimed at his heart, his lungs, his bones, his skin, his fingernails, his hair, his nervous tissue, his gall bladder, his regular bladder, or any other subsystem that composes the individual called "Harry Potter." Thus, the spell will operate on the momentum of the collection of matter that is his body.

I find this relevant because Harry Potter, as a body in the sense of classical mechanics, had momentum toward the center of the earth (i.e. he was in freefall). In a free-body diagram, he could be represented as a single object with a single vector denoting speed and direction. I believe that it is this vector that is altered by the arresto momentum spell, as it is the intuitive goal of the spell: stop Harry from falling.

Magic often works in this intuitive way. For example, Elizer Yudkowski points out in his Harry Potter fanfic "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" that broomsticks do not work according to classical mechanics.

Broomsticks had been invented during what a Muggle would have called the Dark Ages, supposedly by a legendary witch named Celestria Relevo, allegedly the great-great-granddaughter of Merlin.

Celestria Relevo, or whichever person or group had really invented those enchantments, hadn't known a darned thing about Newtonian mechanics.

Broomsticks, therefore, worked by Aristotelian physics.

They went where you pointed them.

If you wanted to move straight forward, you pointed them straight forward; you didn't worry about keeping some of the thrust going downward to cancel out the effect of gravity.

If you turned a broomstick, all of its new velocity was in the new direction of pointing, it didn't go sideways based on its old momentum.

Broomsticks had maximum speeds, not maximum accelerations. Not because of anything to do with air resistance, but because a broomstick had some maximum Aristotelian impetus its enchantments could exert.

Harry had never explicitly noticed that before, despite being dextrous enough to get the best grades in flying class. Broomsticks worked so much like the human mind instinctively expected them to work that his brain had managed to entirely overlook their physical absurdity. Harry, on his first Thursday of broomstick lessons, had been distracted by more interesting-seeming phenomena, words written on paper and a glowing red ball. So his brain had simply suspended its disbelief, marked the reality of broomsticks as accepted, and proceeded to have its fun, without ever once thinking of the question whose answer would have been obvious. For it is a sad fact that we only ever think about a tiny fraction of all the phenomena we encounter...

It seems to me that asserting Dumbledore's spell stopped the entirety of activity in Harry's body is speculation in the extreme. Not only is that incongruous with what we've seen in other immobilizing spells (immobulus did not have that effect, and even the Basilisk didn't cease 100% of molecular movement in its victims), it would be dangerous to Harry's health to use such a spell. Preventing 100% of all motion in any region would immediately change that region's temperature to zero degrees kelvin. 0K is very, very cold. It is so cold that it even makes Faunus's mom look hot by comparison. That temperature would have adverse effects on Harry's body.

I think that this is a more clear expression of my understanding of the spell. Given this interpretation, the targeted Borg ship will be left unable to maneuver while still free to act. Dumbledore would not have the line of sight to target individual drones, and nothing suggests he can target more than one thing at a time. (The spell required a gesture from his hand, so that is at most two cubes held in place, even if I cede that restriction.)

Clearly, arresto momentum is not the game changer you want it to be. Now, the Hogwarts shields face a similar problem. They are in place to defend from magical attack, and seem to also protect against physical assault. However, the Borg weapons are not physical or magical in nature. They use energy weapons. The shield has not been observed to defend against any sort of EM radiation. There simply is not enough evidence to believably assert that the shield will be able to block a Borg attack.

Your observation about ST shields is a good one. However, as shown by the Borg shields' ability to adapt to various frequencies, it seems obvious to me that Starship shields are just not keyed in to wavelengths* of the visible spectrum. There is no evidence that the Hogwarts shields are keyed in to any wavelength.

Hermione's spell is effective at filtering some visible wavelengths, but that spell is keyed for concealment. Rather than a defensive barrier, the shield simply and selectively censured what light passed through. As I've said, the Hogwarts spell has not been shown to do even that.

_______________________
*wavelength and frequency can be used interchangeably here, as [lambda]v=c means that they are inversely related, and therefore equally unique to each energy level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, if air gets through, cannot the Federation bomb the school with Trilithium torpedo's? Iirc from the DS9 episode 'For the Uniform' it releases a deadly nerve gas the size of a freaking continent. The Defiant at least has some, and was in one of the TNG movies, so maybe.

And while it's true that the shields 'offer some protection against matter / energy entering.' It is nowhere near enough, or has the feats to stop an orbital bombardment.

QFT

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's where she talks about the shields, what they are for, etc.

It should be towards the first 3rd of the book. The wiki would not have contained the same information: it's there, somewhere. Looks like I have to stop being lazy...but I don't WANT to read the whole damn book. 🙁 Surely it's out there in a diigital form. Maybe I could "ctrl+f" it on a digital book.

I would assume that physical would be any particle or particles that had mass. If it has inertia, then it doesn't get through.

Tachyons, though...is a whole other ball game. A tachyon can, theoretically, pass completely through the earth. Also, it is impossible for it to interact with matter (as we understand the theoretical particle.) Additionally, we do not know the extend to how the magic blocks. We only have the "physical." The furthest we can take that concept is all "physical" affects of matter that do not violate special relativity. Those that do could not be classified as falling under "physical" in relativistic terms. They would, by very definition, be a-physical.

"Protego!" she cried, and an invisible shield expanded between her and Harry on the one side and Ron on the other; all of them were forced backward a few steps by the strength of the spell.

...

She was impeded by her own Shield Charm;

The online search for the exact quote failed. but page 309, chapter 15, book 7, yeilded the information being sought.

Protego does indeed have physical effect in the books.

Originally posted by Creshosk
As luck would have it I pulled out the physical book 7 opened to a random page and started reading.

The online search for the exact quote failed. but page 309, chapter 15, book 7, yeilded the information being sought.

Protego does indeed have physical effect in the books.

BOOYA!

Thanks. 👆

So it looks like I owe you one.

Originally posted by Zampanó
We are clearly talking at cross purposes. When I said "momentum," I meant it literally as "in classical mechanics, momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg·m/s, or, equivalently, N·s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object (p = mv)." Look at how that will affect the outcome of the spell.

From that point onwards, your argument makes sense. Well done, pal.

Just some minor points here:

Not only is that incongruous with what we've seen in other immobilizing spells (immobulus did not have that effect, and even the Basilisk didn't cease 100% of molecular movement in its victims), it would be dangerous to Harry's health to use such a spell. Preventing 100% of all motion in any region would immediately change that region's temperature to zero degrees kelvin. 0K is very, very cold. It is so cold that it even makes Faunus's mom look hot by comparison. That temperature would have adverse effects on Harry's body.

First: You really can't compare the different spell effects and your comment on the Basilisk effect is simply wrong. The victims appear to be, rather literally, petrified. As Madame Pomfrey puts it: "There's no point in talking to a petrified person. She won't hear a word you're saying."

This is notably different from the effect of the Immobilus (which obivously allowed the victims to perceive their surroundings) and even Petrificus Totalus (when Malfoy used that spell on Harry in "Half-blood prince", Harry could still perceive anything).

The second difference is, that the bodies of the victims seem to be petrified as well, which is demonstrated because they are even lying in the Hogwarts hospital wing in the same positions they were found in. Nothing could be changed (they obviously didn't even move when dropping on the ground). In contrast, Harry's nose is broken by Malfoy when the latter used Petrificus Totalus on him.

That aside, the basilisk effect did even affect the Near-Headless Nick, who is a ghost, meaning he isn't much more than ionized air particles.

Second: Literally making all movement impossible in Harry body would cause ill effects how? If all movement is "frozen" instantly, he is in a stasis field, which means that nothing (not even the cold) would affect the current state of his body, since tissue (just for example) couldn't take damage from that low temperatures. The effect would just be dangerous if not happening instantious (much like warming him up again), which is exactly what would happen, due to magic.

I think that this is a more clear expression of my understanding of the spell. Given this interpretation, the targeted Borg ship will be left unable to maneuver while still free to act. Dumbledore would not have the line of sight to target individual drones, and nothing suggests he can target more than one thing at a time. (The spell required a gesture from his hand, so that is at most two cubes held in place, even if I cede that restriction.)

Excuse me, but wouldn't a complete inability to manouver also affect the (outside) weapon systems, meaning that they couldn't aim there weapons any longer? Not that it matters that much, provided they would be caught mid-air with their "downsides" to the target. Did they have weapon emplacements on the "low side" of the cubes on screen. Can't recall them firing from there.

Apparently, the spell would still render an orbital bombardment impossible...

Now, the Hogwarts shields face a similar problem. They are in place to defend from magical attack, and seem to also protect against physical assault. However, the Borg weapons are not physical or magical in nature. They use energy weapons. The shield has not been observed to defend against any sort of EM radiation. There simply is not enough evidence to believably assert that the shield will be able to block a Borg attack.

Your observation about ST shields is a good one. However, as shown by the Borg shields' ability to adapt to various frequencies, it seems obvious to me that Starship shields are just not keyed in to wavelengths* of the visible spectrum. There is no evidence that the Hogwarts shields are keyed in to any wavelength.

Hermione's spell is effective at filtering some visible wavelengths, but that spell is keyed for concealment. Rather than a defensive barrier, the shield simply and selectively censured what light passed through. As I've said, the Hogwarts spell has not been shown to do even that.

Apparently, I have to point to the OP now. The Borg cubes are up in the sky, fighters below them (in the line of fire), drones on the ground. An instant orbital bombardment appears to be rather unreasonable here, provided the own troops are in the line of fire. This doesn't seem to fit the intention of the thread-starter (and is still illogical, even if it does).

Now the Borg Cubes (or fighters) start to fire on the grounds of Hogwarts, which they still can't plot and therefore not accurately aim at (if they would be able to aim at all). This means, they are firing rather blindly on some spot on Earth.

Giving their desastrous fail with orbital bombardement in "First Contact" (with perfect line of sight), I don't think they will archive anything there fast, regardless if the protective spells would offer some protection from their energy weapons, effectively allowing the Wizards to either fire back or / and evacuate the building.

Assuming that the regular rule of "no morals, they want to see their opponents dead and nothing else" applies, the younger students of the castle might perish, while anybody capable of getting on a broom or apparating (all sixth grades, seventh grades, the teachers, Fawkes) will launch a counter-attack on the Borg.

In which case we're back at the initial points:

1) The Wizards would run rampant through the Borg cubes.
2) They could even place an "anti tech bubble" around a Borg Cube, which means "instant death" for the Borg.
3) They could unload their entire magical arsenal against those Cubes from the ground, being still unplottable for their respective enemies.
4) They could "take over" some Borg Cubes (Imperius, Legilimency)

Hell. I can't even figure out, why they wouldn't simply say "Evanesco" and make the space ships disappear...

You would basically need to assume that they will turn the entire Hogwarts ground (which includes the Lake, the Forbidden Forrest, Hogsmeade, the Quidditch Arena and so on) into scorched Earth almost instantly, otherwise a (probably lethal) counter-attack would happen and the Wizards would still win - no matter if they could bombard the school from the orbit or not.

Originally posted by Borbarad
From that point onwards, your argument makes sense. Well done, pal.

😄
Coming from you, that means a lot.

First: You really can't compare the different spell effects and your comment on the Basilisk effect is simply wrong. The victims appear to be, rather literally, petrified. As Madame Pomfrey puts it: "There's no point in talking to a petrified person. She won't hear a word you're saying."

This is notably different from the effect of the Immobilus (which obivously allowed the victims to perceive their surroundings) and even Petrificus Totalus (when Malfoy used that spell on Harry in "Half-blood prince", Harry could still perceive anything).

The second difference is, that the bodies of the victims seem to be petrified as well, which is demonstrated because they are even lying in the Hogwarts hospital wing in the same positions they were found in. Nothing could be changed (they obviously didn't even move when dropping on the ground). In contrast, Harry's nose is broken by Malfoy when the latter used Petrificus Totalus on him.

No other spell that freezes the body literally removes all kinetic energy. I was still concerned with the free motion of components of the target of the arresto momentum spell (i.e. Borg drones within a cube).

Second: Literally making all movement impossible in Harry body would cause ill effects how? If all movement is "frozen" instantly, he is in a stasis field, which means that nothing (not even the cold) would affect the current state of his body, since tissue (just for example) couldn't take damage from that low temperatures. The effect would just be dangerous if not happening instantious (much like warming him up again), which is exactly what would happen, due to magic.

Excuse me, but wouldn't a complete inability to manouver also affect the (outside) weapon systems, meaning that they couldn't aim there weapons any longer? Not that it matters that much, provided they would be caught mid-air with their "downsides" to the target. Did they have weapon emplacements on the "low side" of the cubes on screen. Can't recall them firing from there.

I don't know if there are weapons on the bottom of a cube. It certainly seems to defeat the purpose of using a regular solid--a cube--with no obvious top or bottom if you don't put weapons on all sides. Anybody got clips of the battles in First Contact?

Apparently, I have to point to the OP now. The Borg cubes are up in the sky, fighters below them (in the line of fire), drones on the ground. An instant orbital bombardment appears to be rather unreasonable here, provided the own troops are in the line of fire. This doesn't seem to fit the intention of the thread-starter (and is still illogical, even if it does).

Now the Borg Cubes (or fighters) start to fire on the grounds of Hogwarts, which they still can't plot and therefore not accurately aim at (if they would be able to aim at all). This means, they are firing rather blindly on some spot on Earth.

Giving their desastrous fail with orbital bombardement in "First Contact" (with perfect line of sight), I don't think they will archive anything there fast, regardless if the protective spells would offer some protection from their energy weapons, effectively allowing the Wizards to either fire back or / and evacuate the building.

Assuming that the regular rule of "no morals, they want to see their opponents dead and nothing else" applies, the younger students of the castle might perish, while anybody capable of getting on a broom or apparating (all sixth grades, seventh grades, the teachers, Fawkes) will launch a counter-attack on the Borg.

In which case we're back at the initial points:

1) The Wizards would run rampant through the Borg cubes.
2) They could even place an "anti tech bubble" around a Borg Cube, which means "instant death" for the Borg.
3) They could unload their entire magical arsenal against those Cubes from the ground, being still unplottable for their respective enemies.
4) They could "take over" some Borg Cubes (Imperius, Legilimency)

Hell. I can't even figure out, why they wouldn't simply say "Evanesco" and make the space ships disappear...

You would basically need to assume that they will turn the entire Hogwarts ground (which includes the Lake, the Forbidden Forrest, Hogsmeade, the Quidditch Arena and so on) into scorched Earth almost instantly, otherwise a (probably lethal) counter-attack would happen and the Wizards would still win - no matter if they could bombard the school from the orbit or not.

I think we're in agreement on everything now except for the Wizard capability to reach the highest cubes/ships. Do you have a proposed tactic to destroy ships far outside of line of sight that the Wizards might not even know about?

What if Feds/The Borg en mass lock on to the Hogwarts lifeforms and beam them all 500 miles out into outer space?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
What if Feds/The Borg en mass lock on to the Hogwarts lifeforms and beam them all 500 miles out into outer space?

I thought of that already: I forgot about the "anti-technology" charm.

But I assumed that technology doesn't work on the inside, including trying to beam people too and from inside the charms.

My logic was: since EmR gets through, so could beaming people...but that's nulled by the anti-technology charms.

I think Creshosk had the best approach: they are still subject to gravity and if their shields can stand up against a large beat down, the changes in inertia OR beating them down into the earth, should certainy kill quite a few, if not all of the wizards.

Okay, but what if, then, the assimilated wizards counter with magic of their own? Some dark magics counter/negate those shield charms.

OR if ariel/orbital bombardment of the land/area itself is sufficient to break the land that Hogwarts is free of Earth, no matter how protected it is?

How about if The Feds, Borg project a localised force field around the Castle and simply remove the air from within it via transporters from orbit? I dont think their shields are gonna be absolute in the face of 200 ships nailing it simultaneously with quantum torpedos.... and How will Protego go when the Genesis wave rewrites everything's ass..?

Or when a subspace detonation occurs at Hogwarts almost ground zero?

Also the tech doing the beaming is in orbit, so what is this charms range...? 'Cause the rest of the tech on earth during the years that HP is set in seemed fine.

Also, what if a few ships detach from engaging Hogwarts and go slingshotting round our sun, going back to five minutes before the sheild spells were cast and then quantum torpedo their wizard asses into absolute nothingness..? 😛

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Also, what if a few ships detach from engaging Hogwarts and go slingshotting round our sun, going back to five minutes before the sheild spells were cast and then quantum torpedo their wizard asses into absolute nothingness..? 😛

that is a feat for the borg, that being said they do that and wipe hogwarts out of existence before the fight even starts

Ah-hah. Yes the first contact maneuver.

Actually like I mentioned before the borg themselves don't need to do the slingshotting thing. They can use tachyons to open transwarp conduits. A tachyon pulse can be used to open a temporal rift.

Yep thats a given since this would have to be how the Borg and Feds make it back to Potter Era.

Just didnt wanna use it twice. 😛

But I assumed that technology doesn't work on the inside, including trying to beam people too and from inside the charms.