Originally posted by Zampanó
I don't know if this is accurate. Technology doesn't work inside, but the effects of technology might. Harry's clothing does not break down upon entering the grounds, even though it was created by technology. Is there any reason to think that a stream of matter will behave otherwise?
An excellent point. ✅
Originally posted by dadudemonI can't seem to find any information on any sort of anti-technology charm outside of mention in other Harry Potter vs threads on various other sites.
I thought of that already: I forgot about the "anti-technology" charm.
Might you have more information available on where to narrow my search?
The most I can find is a Freezing charm(Not specifically anti-technology) disabling a burgler alarm (Somehow, guess that one didn't have a silent alarm to the alarm company) and a mention of computers, and radar going haywire around hogwarts., which might simply be from the magic "radiation" in the area, and a EM Shielded piece of technology might stil be able to function at a distance.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Coming from you, that means a lot.
I feel honored.
This is correct, but I was not really concerned about the various effects of magical spells. Instead, I just wanted to show that the arresto momentum spell would leave Harry's innards motionless. Because there is no natural division between the atoms and molecules that make up his body and the biological systems that freeze his body, any interference with internal systems would effect all of those components. Reducing an atom's momentum to zero would change its temperature to zero kelvin.No other spell that freezes the body literally removes all kinetic energy. I was still concerned with the free motion of components of the target of the arresto momentum spell (i.e. Borg drones within a cube).
Well. While what you said seems to apply to the Arresto Momentum, we don't know how much of it can be extended to the other variants of immobilizing spells, which might still all be applied against the Borg. Especially the spell causing the basilisk gaze effects (mentioned in CoS) could potentially endanger the internal workings of the target as well. Which is already ignoring the possibility of simply hitting the ship with a killing curse. Going by the fact that Voldemorts backfiring Avada Kedavra did turn the house of Harry's parents into a ruin (see "Deathly Hallows"😉, one spell alone might cause significant damage to the Borg Cubes.
I was considering the weapons as "internal components." The Borg weapons are not external or mechanical in nature, so there would be no net movement of the vessel as a whole required. In fact, no motion is required at all. The Borg emitters are never shown to move during the movie, so they wouldn't need to move here. The electrons would move to the weapon systems and aiming would proceed normally.
Erm...what do you think how ST weapons do "aim"?
The phaser banks (used until 24th century ST) basically looked like video projectors projecting the beams to the target. They are located on the outer hull of the ship and they had to be moved in order to aim (this would be a fail here). From the 24th century on, they applied phaser arrays, which have energy traveling through the array and the beam being formed at the best position to hit a target. Those have, however, not been observed on Borg Cubes, which seem to use the first sort of weapon systems.
Which meens they do rely on mechanical parts outside of the hull.
I don't know if there are weapons on the bottom of a cube. It certainly seems to defeat the purpose of using a regular solid--a cube--with no obvious top or bottom if you don't put weapons on all sides. Anybody got clips of the battles in First Contact?
Well. The movies and series show them shooting with the "forward" weapons almost on all occassions. They even use them on targets relatively below / above their own position. That seems to imply that at least the "upper" and "lower" side of the Cube don't contain weapon systems.
And I didn't know that there was a purpose for the Cube design. I know that the "vital" systems are spread throughout the ship, but I'd consider it a waste of space to include every system six times (once for every side of the Cube), especially when almost nothing would pose a danger to yourself and your crew.
The Borg weapons do not appear to rely on the orientation of the Cube relative to the target, as I recall. Again, this could be solved by the footage from the movie.
Since they alway have time to manouver in a good position, we just see them firing from the "front side" of the Cube.
Depending on planning by the Federation--which did, after all, summon the Borg with malice aforethought, which in my eyes means prep time--the Borg might just bathe the area in gamma radiation. They are obviously equipped to emit all sorts of fun rays (like time travel rays) so they could do the same here. Otherwise:
Urm...?
As far as movie (and TV canon) is concerned, the Borg have tractor beams, hull cutting beams, anti-shield weapons and disruptors. I've never saw them taking the "bath target in potentially deadly radition" option.
This seems reasonable. I do wonder if simple range limitations would put the highest cubes out of reach; outer space isn't very inviting for broomsticks or flame birds and apparition requires at least some knowledge of the destination. Otherwise, I totally agree. Anytime the wizards get a shot at Borg, the Borg get tossed.
Well...
"Deadly Hallows" features a scene where one spell fired from the Ministry of Magic flies straight to a Wedding party at Ron's house. Little Whimging (the home of the Dursley's and Harry) is located just North of Greater London. The Burrow (Ron's home) is located in a fantasy town named after "Ottery St. Mary" (near Exeter). The distance is about 160 Kilometers. That would be enough to shoot targets in Low Earth Orbit straight from the ground.
And while outer space seems to be an unpleasant place, it was claimed ("Order of the Phoenix"😉 that one Wizard did visit the moon using a broomstick. And while that was content of the "Quibbler" (so it may be questioned), one might ask what should stop half-appareted Wizards (essentially smoke kept together by willpower) from surviving in space. I don't know if complete apparition is really limited by "having been at place X". However. The method of flying up there (half apparated) should work, which means once having been on a Borg cube, one could apparate from there and use side-along apparition to get more people up.
By the way: The Hogwarts house-elves can definitely go anywhere with apparition. Dobby has no problem apparating to Harry's house despite never having been there ("Chamber of Secrets"😉.
This seems accurate, although the Borg probably have a little bit more time than "almost instantly."
Well. Technically, the Wizards would be warned before the first shot is fired, given that - according to the OP - drones are on the ground and fighters are in the air above the castle. They wouldn't go unnoticed.
I think we're in agreement on everything now except for the Wizard capability to reach the highest cubes/ships. Do you have a proposed tactic to destroy ships far outside of line of sight that the Wizards might not even know about?
Well. Going by the fact that Cochrane could spot the Borg attacking his home with the naked eye, I don't see how Wizards would not be able to do the same. That aside: They do have astronomical devices (even an own tower build for the art of astronomy) and it's rather hard not to spot objects the size of a Borg Cube. It's rather easy to spot planes with the naked eye (travel hight: 10 kilometres). Seeing a Cube with more than 3 kilometers side length (40 times longer and 120 times higher than an Airbus A380) shouldn't be much of a problem.
Not to mention that, given the setup in the OP, pointing the wand up and fire a spell would almost count as automatic hit for the Wizards.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I can't seem to find any information on any sort of anti-technology charm outside of mention in other Harry Potter vs threads on various other sites.Might you have more information available on where to narrow my search?
The most I can find is a Freezing charm(Not specifically anti-technology) disabling a burgler alarm (Somehow, guess that one didn't have a silent alarm to the alarm company) and a mention of computers, and radar going haywire around hogwarts., which might simply be from the magic "radiation" in the area, and a EM Shielded piece of technology might stil be able to function at a distance.
Didn't see this post.
To be honest, I do not know if the anti-technology magic exists inside of the movies: it may be a book only thing. Unless it's in the movies, it doesn't count.
However, the anti-tech charm thingie was in place because they kids wanted to use tech at one point and someone, most likely hermione, pointed out that tech doesn't work at hogwarts or something.
Edit -
This page makes mention of it.
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Hogwarts_School_of_Witchcraft_and_Wizardry
Apparantly, no tech was used at school, even in the movies, but it doesn't tell us what book the "no tech" magics came from.
Double edit -
Here's another reference I found.
http://www.matthauger.com/2010/09/why-no-electronics-at-harry-potters-hogwarts/
But that's a question.
It's not that we don't know if the book mentions it or not, it's if the movies do. We know the books do, somewhere.
Originally posted by -Pr-
They could see the Borg torpedoes flying toward the ground, but not the Bog craft itself. Even seeing the Enterprise required a telescope that had been augmented by Geordi.
Pretty sure they travel extremely fast, so I can't see wizards targeting them each and every time. They've also have plenty of phasers arrays to fire down with, if needed.
I'm trying to remember where it was shown (Voyager?), but I think the Borg are capable of scooping up large sections of cities for use in mass-assimilation of a species with their multiple tracker-beams. Can't imagine Howgarts would pose a problem in being scooped up in kind.
Originally posted by Robtard
Pretty sure they travel extremely fast, so I can't see wizards targeting them each and every time. They've also have plenty of phasers arrays to fire down with, if needed.I'm trying to remember where it was shown (Voyager?), but I think the Borg are capable of scooping up large sections of cities for use in mass-assimilation of a species with their multiple tracker-beams. Can't imagine Howgarts would pose a problem in being scooped up in kind.
Next Generation did that three times, in the Neutral Zone episode (iirc), Q Who, and more blatantly in Best of Both Worlds, where we see the actual craters made by the Borg craft.
Originally posted by Robtard
Since when can the wizards cast spells into space at objects they likely wouldn't be aware of and while they're busy doing their best to survive against the ones they can see? Anyone.
I've actually answered your questions already. You may want to read. I will just explain it again:
1) We've seen a Wizard firing a spell over a 160 kilometer distance on screen. Thus they could hit targets in lower orbit, if we just talk about the range.
2) Just imagine a Cube with three kilometers side length. Even if you put that into the orbit, it would still be visible. Just as real-life example: You can see the Mount Everest from the Tiger Hill (Darjeeling), despite of the fact that there are 107 miles (172 kilometers) of distance between the two mountains. So if the Borg happen to be in Lower Earth Orbit (160 - 2000 kilometers), they are still quite observeable - even with the naked eye. Not to mention the fact that Astronomy is a taught subject in the school and we've seen the astronomy tower in the movies...
Originally posted by Robtard
Pretty sure they travel extremely fast, so I can't see wizards targeting them each and every time.
Do I need to explain once again why "moving very fast" and "fire on stationary targets" are two options that don't go along that well? I can remember to have lectured you on this subject in the "SW vs ST" thread often enough. But just as a reminder: If you move with a "very fast speed" in relation to a stationary target, hitting it becomes rather difficult. Hence we never see warped ships attacking non warped ones in the ST universe.
They've also have plenty of phasers arrays to fire down with, if needed.
They have phaser banks, which feature moveable parts outside of the ship. I've had a debate - with Zampano - about it, right here. It would be nice, if you'd read it so that I didn't have to repeat myself ad nauseam. Using any kind of petricifaction spell would probably "freeze" the emitters and thus prevent aiming.
I'm trying to remember where it was shown (Voyager?), but I think the Borg are capable of scooping up large sections of cities for use in mass-assimilation of a species with their multiple tracker-beams. Can't imagine Howgarts would pose a problem in being scooped up in kind.
By the very nature of the protections surrounding Hogwarts, they can't target anything down there. They would need to bombard an area without seeing what happens at all. The entire ground is unplotable and trying to "scoop up" the entire terrain will result in Wizards kicking their sorry Borgs asses.
Originally posted by dadudemon
To be honest, I do not know if the anti-technology magic exists inside of the movies: it may be a book only thing. Unless it's in the movies, it doesn't count.
It is obviously implied in "Chamber of Secrets", given that Colin Creevey has to use the rather old-fashioned Muggle camera in order to be able to take pictures in Hogwarts in a non-magical way.
That aside: One would expect that at least the muggle born students would carry the typically 90s technology for kids to the school, ranging from Walkman to Game Boy. The total absense of any sort of complex technology in a movie taking place in that time has to be explained - and it is in the books, with the explanation (magic killing complex technplogy) also being hinted to in the movies. That aside: Taking a look at the Forum Rules, non-movie feats also seem to be useable, if they don't contradict what is shown on screen...