Lloyd Irving vs Link

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's not quite right. In a debate, if you claim something, you must provide evidence for that claim.

And you claim that Lloyd can do stuff without giving me a video as proof.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
There is no factual evidence about its weight. Unless stated by the creators or some official source, it's all hypothesis.

They at one point called in granite. Was it in like a strategy guide Scream? I can't recall.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Actually, yes, we do. Squall's spells are up to the player. You guys love to use gameplay, huh? The only valid feat here it's Lloyd's. We cannot use gameplay to prove everything. Otherwise, I could claim that every characters are bullet-timers because they fought enemies with guns, they are laser-timers because they fought enemies with lasers, they can tank energy beams because they fought enemies that fired energy beams, etc.

So Link chucking the pillar isn't valid because of something to do with gameplay? And yes, I actually do use gameplay. So lump me in with them again for no particular reason other than I agree with them and you'll just keep embarrassing yourself. Gameplay is just fine by me. It gives Sora several nice feats after all.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, it is. I don't think Link has the ability to carry over 1000 items in his pocket and switch them whenever he wants. Just as I don't think that Squall could carry Black Holes, Missiles, Hero Drinks, Elixirs, Laser Cannons and Dark Matters.

The amount of items is silly as in Zelda one can actually switch in between said items with lots of ease. The only one that is quite questionable is the Lens of Truth, since it doesn't look like it should be possible to use while Link is holding a sword and shield or bow and arrow.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No? He's strong enough to effortlessly deflect lightning bolts that were strong enough to electrocute and kill another character. And that alone trumps everything I heard from Link so far. And is not from gameplay! =D

Either way, I'm not debating about who wins this fight, like I said I haven't played the games.

Bring me proof of this. While you're at it, bring me proof of the other characters durability. Odds are the attack, while faster than Ganon's, is far weaker. And again the concept where you seem to think that like the LLLC I care whether it's gameplay or not. Oh ho how amusing that you lump me in with them. 🙂

And neither have I. Difference is, I'm just bothering to save the LLLC some time by mention crap they will before.

At the very least, I'm not saying Link wins this via 1 Ice arrow like they most certainly think he would.

Either way, I'm not debating about who wins this fight, like I said I haven't played the games.

Yes, the fight with blatant lightnng animations, just as its the fight with blatant ball lightning and completely shitty speed. How many ****ing times are you going to repeat that useless bit of information.

Why, because you decided thats the case? No, you do not get to pick and choose what you'll accept as evidence

Are you with Greiver on this, or are you actually going to support Lloyd at some point?

At the very least, I'm not saying Link wins this via 1 Ice arrow like they most certainly think he would.

Ice arrows > Volcanoes ftw.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And you claim that Lloyd can do stuff without giving me a video as proof.

Watch the video Tac posted on page number 4.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
They at one point called in granite. Was it in like a strategy guide Scream? I can't recall.

So Link chucking the pillar isn't valid because of something to do with gameplay? And yes, I actually do use gameplay. So lump me in with them again for no particular reason other than I agree with them and you'll just keep embarrassing yourself. Gameplay is just fine by me. It gives Sora several nice feats after all.

The amount of items is silly as in Zelda one can actually switch in between said items with lots of ease. The only one that is quite questionable is the Lens of Truth, since it doesn't look like it should be possible to use while Link is holding a sword and shield or bow and arrow.

I don't know about that. Point is we don't have factual evidence about its weight, just hypothesis.

I never said that wasn't valid. I've said we cannot use gameplay to prove EVERYTHING. Gameplay gives any character nice 'feats' if that's the case.

But it is still possible for him to save all of those items inside his hat? They suddenly become the size of a coin?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Odds are the attack, while faster than Ganon's, is far weaker.

Which attack is far weaker than Ganon's?

Watch the video Tac posted on page number 4.

Edit: Holy shit it's 8am. TIME FOR BED.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Oh my a single feat which does nothing to back up Lloyd's strength or durability. 😐

Edit: Holy shit it's 8am. TIME FOR BED.

So parrying a lightning bolt that killed another character is not having strength nor endurance? Right. I get that.

I'll repeat it as long as I have to, some skulls are thicker than others, and I'm patient enough to wait for the slow ones.

Well then I guess this'll be a fight to see who can repeat themselves teh most, becuase untill you actually adress my point I'll just keep asking you to prove its lightning outside of gameplay and pointing out that in gameplay it obviously isn't a lightning bolt.

When what you're presenting as evidence is the equivalent of for example, timing the speed of a gameplay bullet and deducing it's not bullet speed based on that... I'll Gladly point you back to reason.

Except that isn't what I'm doing. What I'm doing is basically trying to prove that it isn't even lightning in the first place. You still haven't proven this yet. With a bullet, its always a bullet (though for your information bullet speed does vary, and say a musket isn't going to be as fast as a glock), in this case it could be one of 3 things a) a lightning bolt (unlikely as it looks and behaves nothing like one) b) ball lightning (the most likely imo, as pretty much all evidence points to this and is consistent) or c) a ball of magical energy (still pretty likely). You are trying to deny me gameplay evidence that points squarely to the latter two (its speed and shape) while keeping evidence that points to the first (crackling animations). This is hypocritical and complete bullshit.

Are you with Greiver on this, or are you actually going to support Lloyd at some point?

No, so if you want to run away from this debate that you are obviously losing be my guest. 😉

Well then I guess this'll be a fight to see who can repeat themselves teh most, becuase untill you actually adress my point I'll just keep asking you to prove its lightning outside of gameplay and pointing out that in gameplay it obviously isn't a lightning bolt.

What I'm doing is basically trying to prove that it isn't even lightning in the first place.

b) ball lightning (the most likely imo, as pretty much all evidence points to this and is consistent)

c) a ball of magical energy (still pretty likely). You are trying to deny me gameplay evidence that points squarely to teh latter two (its speed and shape) while keeping evidence that pints to teh first (crackling animations). This is hypocritical and complete bullshit.

No, so if you want to run away from this debate that you are obviously losing be my guest

I'm actually going to bed this time. But yeah, ignoring you until you come up with something that's not gameplay speed of something we know is faster in canon.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganon's lightning moves at full speed.

Post the video so all we can see it.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
In this case I'm ignoring you for the remainder of this thread, sicne you're apparently just here to troll and sidetrack.

I disagree!

No, seriously, please don't start with personal attacks.

Except we know Ganon's lightning moves at full speed. HERE WE GO AGAIN.

Except that it is a logical fallacy to use a completely different and unrelated attack as evidence for this attack. Later cases of Ganon using lightning resemble lightning bolts, this one is a ball of electrical energy. They are completely different cases.

The stance you've taken requires Ganondorf to actually, and intentionally, slow down the speed electricity arcs throguh air. no expression Not valid when we know he does not actually need to do so.

A) No it doesn't. It requires him to use an attack that isn't fricking lightning bolts at all.
B) You were given a completely valid and logical reason for why Ganon might do so, by attempting to use a slower but more powerful attack on Link. His earlier attack barely put young Link on his ass, he probably thought he needed the extra punch.

The thing that looks like lightning and behaves like lightning. Isn't lightning?

Correct, in the second part. The first sentence is completely wrong. Lightning is not circular, is not thrown and is considerably faster than the attack that Ganon uses. It does not look like or behave like lightning at all.

A little known and unexplained phenomena.

This is fiction. Something does not need to have a basis in scientific fact to exist in fiction. And there are cases of ball lightning being used in video games, like in the cases of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Final Fantasy etc etc.

There is no evidence to support it other than the gameplay speed,

There is no evidence for the attack being lightning based at all other than the gameplay animations.

and it requires Ganondorf to sabotage himself. No.

Who cares. We do not need to explain the logic behind events or feats existing, only that they do in fact, exist.

/Eyeroll. The lightning and crackle animations which indicate what the attack is? It's the same as identifying a projectile as a bullet.

Oh, well if thats the case then I can use the fact that it is circular and the crackle animations to identify it as ball lightning? Good, glad we got that out of the way.

It having crackle animations = its lightning.

It having crackle animations and being a ball = its ball lightning.

Occams Razor and basic application of logic that more evidence > less evidence equals it being Ball Lightning. Thanks for playing.

You cannot use the gameplay speed of something in preference to the canon speed we know.

Except that isn't what I'm doing. I'm using the gameplay speed to prove that the canon speed does not even apply in this case.

You have nothing to back you in this debate, been fun, but I'll take my win based on your complete and utter lack of anything resembling either evidence or a stance that makes sense.

I'm actually going to bed this time. But yeah, ignoring you until you come up with something that's not gameplay speed of something we know is faster in canon.

You have been defeated in every single point by about 5 different people. Your stance not only argues against visual evidence in favor for your personal speculation, but has a complete lack of any evidence supporting it. Evidence the scenes slowed down. Nope! Evidence the developer intended it to be full speed lightning. None! Ganon even using lightning in other cases, even if only after this one. Nary a link. Not only that but you have been conspicuously neglect in addressing the points concerning you hypocritically using gameplay speed as well as the provision of evidence that Ganon disarming Link is actually a durability feat. In short, you've lost and your excuse to run away, despite the fact that you've know I wasn't arguing for Lloyd for several pages, is timely indeed.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Watch the video Tac posted on page number 4.

I see. One video. And honestly not a very good one. I like how no one mentioned the fact that Lloyd, along with everyone else except for that one guy got knocked flat on their asses before Volt decided to go easy on them. Still, I suppose it is a lightning reaction. Not that "blocking" an attack from Link would be smart without sufficient strength.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I don't know about that. Point is we don't have factual evidence about its weight, just hypothesis.

I never said that wasn't valid. I've said we cannot use gameplay to prove EVERYTHING. Gameplay gives any character nice 'feats' if that's the case.

But it is still possible for him to save all of those items inside his hat? They suddenly become the size of a coin?

If we know that it is made of granite, it is possible to math it. Clearly it's stone anyway so it should be fairly heavy anyway. Which is better than Lloyd's strength feats of well....nothing.

You try to use gameplay to prove the lightning ball Ganondorf uses is not lightning speed. I of course agree. Using gameplay to dismiss Link having avaliability to his items however is quite frankly cheap.

Magic hat. They do in fact exist in Zelda canon.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Which attack is far weaker than Ganon's?

Volt's. Very weak actually, now that I look at it.

Edit: This ki blast shit has gotten old.

YouTube video

At 1:00, we can see Cole firing off lightning like he typically does.

At 3:41, we see him use the shock grenade which is slower to use.

Is Cole being intentionally stupid by using an attack that's slower? No. He's trading it off for one with enough power to clear the path. It's slower because Cole has to throw it instead of blasting it in a single path.

Now why can't this also be applied to Ganondorf?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I want you to stop and consider what you're saying.

Do you have any idea how much force is at work here? haermm If that were you holding Link's sword you would have been reduced to a [b]liquid. 😐 This is not exaggeration.[/B]

If I blocked a straight on attack, yes. It wasn't, though. Ganon's attack hit ONLY the sword. So when the sword goes flying because of the strength of the attack, Link isn't affected at all other than the fact that his hand is gripping the hilt of the sword. So he will loose grip of the sword long before any sort of serious damage to his arm comes into play.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I don't have to prove it's impossible, nor will I, with no feats being shown for Lloyd he can't win anyway. Just because your ridiculous theory isn't wholly impossible does not make it valid. 😬 Theoreticly, Lloyd could simply be grounded. Nothing actually supports that, but when he's hit with the lightning and doesn't die it's kind of odd, I mean, can you prove Lloyd's not grounded? OCCAM'S RAZOR SAYS HE MUST BE!!

😬

If you don't it removes a feat from Link.

"Just because your ridiculous theory isn't wholly impossible does not make it valid."

It makes it simpler, and it makes it the more logical. So yes. Yes it does.

No, Lloyd being grounded is another case of a less simple answer, but thanks for bringing it up, it actually helps me. To say Lloyd is grounded is adding an unnecessary element to the explanation that doesn't need to be there. Which is EXACTLY what you are doing. Just like Lloyds grounding being the less logical explanation, so your theory of full speed lightning is adding unnecessary elements to the explanation that aren't required. Thus, your explanation is no longer the simpler one, and Occam's Razor refutes it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You have been defeated in every single point by about 5 different people. Your stance not only argues [b]against visual evidence in favor for your personal speculation, but has a complete lack of any evidence supporting it. Evidence the scenes slowed down. Nope! Evidence the developer intended it to be full speed lightning. None! Ganon even using lightning in other cases, even if only after this one. Nary a link. Not only that but you have been conspicuously neglect in addressing the points concerning you hypocritically using gameplay speed as well as the provision of evidence that Ganon disarming Link is actually a durability feat. In short, you've lost and your excuse to run away, despite the fact that you've know I wasn't arguing for Lloyd for several pages, is timely indeed. [/B]

👆

Originally posted by TacDavey
What are you all talking about with Link swinging his sword at super sonic speeds? What part of the game is that coming from?

The spin attack from TP. IF he's doing 1 and a half spins in 0.1 seconds then he'd be moving at 100m/s, (super sonic being 340m/s Link only gets to a third of this) but thats if its on 0.1 seconds. Its still pretty far from being super sonic.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why is it hard to believe that Ganon has different attacks in a different game? His abilities change from game to game. My theory is still simpler.

It's simpler to assume the developers gave Ganon a new attack for a new game, rather than saying he is using an old attack that looks new, and slows down time even though we can't verify that at all as there is nothing on screen that changes.

Yeah... Mines simpler. Still waiting for you to prove it impossible.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
YouTube video

1:46 to 1:51 we can clearly spot that the ki blast is different from the one used in the Ganondorf boss fight.

YouTube video

At 2:12 we see the lightning charge up the attack, not the black magic or whatever that stuff was from the other video.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I'm asking for proof that gigajoules of force would brake his arm instead of simply knocking the damn thing out of his hand. You need to prove that the first is more feasible a reaction than the latter.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I see. One video. And honestly not a very good one. I like how no one mentioned the fact that Lloyd, along with everyone else except for that one guy got knocked flat on their asses before Volt decided to go easy on them. Still, I suppose it is a lightning reaction. Not that "blocking" an attack from Link would be smart without sufficient strength.

If we know that it is made of granite, it is possible to math it. Clearly it's stone anyway so it should be fairly heavy anyway. Which is better than Lloyd's strength feats of well....nothing.

At least Lloyd did what all you swear Link 'supposedly' did. Effortlessly deflected a lightning bolt that killed another character. And that not only makes him fast, also strong.

Exactly, it's just a stone pillar.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You try to use gameplay to prove the lightning ball Ganondorf uses is not lightning speed. I of course agree. Using gameplay to dismiss Link having avaliability to his items however is quite frankly cheap.

Magic hat. They do in fact exist in Zelda canon.

Volt's. Very weak actually, now that I look at it.

No, I never did such thing. All of you uses gameplay to claim the fight is slowed down the moment Ganon uses those energy balls.

You didn't answer to my questions.

Back that one up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You have been defeated in every single point by about 5 different people. Your stance not only argues [b]against visual evidence in favor for your personal speculation, but has a complete lack of any evidence supporting it. Evidence the scenes slowed down. Nope! Evidence the developer intended it to be full speed lightning. None! Ganon even using lightning in other cases, even if only after this one. Nary a link. Not only that but you have been conspicuously neglect in addressing the points concerning you hypocritically using gameplay speed as well as the provision of evidence that Ganon disarming Link is actually a durability feat. In short, you've lost and your excuse to run away, despite the fact that you've know I wasn't arguing for Lloyd for several pages, is timely indeed. [/B]

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
At least Lloyd did what all you swear Link 'supposedly' did. Effortlessly deflected a lightning bolt that killed another character. And that not only makes him fast, also strong.

Exactly, it's just a stone pillar.

And with this "you" business. If you can find one solitary shred of evidence that says I support this Linkcanreacttolightning bullshit, I'll pay you a million dollars. I've made my opinion quite clear on it. And so? Bullets are capable of killing people. Blocking a bullet makes you strong fast enough to block a sword attack from a far stronger character? His reaction speed is better but his movement speed seems worse actually and you can only dodge for so long.

....Stone pillars weigh a lot. Lloyd strength feats?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, I never did such thing. All of you uses gameplay to claim the fight is slowed down the moment Ganon uses those energy balls.

You didn't answer to my questions.

Back that one up.

So what was that business about "Aren't all these weapons gameplay?" And again with this "you" stuff. I am not in the LLLC. Never have been, never will be. I disagree with the lightning speed sphere but will consent that maybe the devs meant for it to be the same but just messed up on making the move in the fight look like it did in the cutscene. Which means I think that it's the cutscene speed, tops.

Volt's attack is weak. Ganondorfs attack is not. The best showing for Volt was him tossing most the party across the room like rag dolls. Not his lightning.

Wait... Why is Volt's attack weak?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Wait... Why is Volt's attack weak?

Because compared to Ganon's attack, it's nothing Link hasn't been shown to handle woth ease.

Well its not like he struggles to bat back Ganons ball with his sword either.

That sounded less dirty in my head...... mmm

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And with this "you" business. If you can find one solitary shred of evidence that says I support this Linkcanreacttolightning bullshit, I'll pay you a million dollars. I've made my opinion quite clear on it. And so? Bullets are capable of killing people. Blocking a bullet makes you strong fast enough to block a sword attack from a far stronger character? His reaction speed is better but his movement speed seems worse actually and you can only dodge for so long.

....Stone pillars weigh a lot. Lloyd strength feats?

Bullets are as destructive as lightning bolts? I didn't know that. And for the record, BOTH can kill people, except bullets only if they hit a vital organ. What do you mean Lloyd movements seems worse? Worse than WHAT? Did you completely missed the part when Lloyd reacts to a straight shot of lightning?

Yes, they are heavy. I wonder why Link didn't simply broke it with his sword? It seems the sword does not receive the power of the gautlents. Hmm? 🙂

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what was that business about "Aren't all these weapons gameplay?" And again with this "you" stuff. I am not in the LLLC. Never have been, never will be. I disagree with the lightning speed sphere but wil consent that maybe the devs meant for it to be the same but just messed up on making the move in the fight look like it did in the cutscene.

Volt's attack is weak. Ganondorfs attack is not.

I have asked if Link can actually carry so many items. Can you prove it without using gameplay? So the developers messed up stuff when they made the attack? Nice assumption is nice. Back that up.

Uhh... sure, thanks for proving your point?

Him showing worse reactions then a half-bullet speed enemy speaks for the lighting deal. Even looking over to TP Link facing the electric attack while having 4 instances of below peak reactions. You telling me a guy who couldn't react past 6x peak movements and another who only has human reactions can lighting time?

Two examples of an apparent lightning timer. TP's only has human reactions and OoT is capped against 6x peak movements, how could they be lightning timers?

And one more thing:
YouTube video
1:28+ Its basically the move in-between the first dark formed one and the last electric charged one mentioned before. As you can see its not a lightning move but an energy one which has an electric affinity. Applying the same path these ball moves are going down*, the last move in question would be the same thing. An electric energy ball.

*Ball formed with energy>Ball formed with energy with an electric affinity>Ball formed with electricity with an electric affinity.