Lloyd Irving vs Link

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Mathematics can be applied to everything. It is the basis on which everything stand. All you have to do to get going, is know the numbers. [/B]

Not everything can be calculated because not everything in fantasy makes sense. It is run by nothing more than the imagination of the person creating it. You cannot break a persons imagination down to numbers.

Anything can happen in fantasy, and it does not have to follow the laws of physics or anything else for that matter.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I see you ignored my post. Can I accept this as a concession then?

Why? Depending on the wielder, it is not silly at all. Stalfos don't have super strength? Why not? I mean, besides you saying so? If they can hurt Link, they have super strength. Despite the fact that that is one of your beloved gameplay mechanics you enjoy bringing up.

Yeah man cause jumping off a cliff compares at all to being sent down to Earth by Majora's destruction of the moon which sent Link plummeting down to Earth. Laughable.

I concede some things. But there was too much between you and screams responses to go into each one individually.

No, Link's health is a gamplay mechanic, his hearts, his magic bar. He doesnt really have any of those things. THOSE are gameplay mechanics. The fact that a Stalfos is a threat to him is not a gamplay mechanic. And even if we say a Stalfos has super strength (and I don't) we still can't say that about the vast majority of other enemies Link encounters.

Yes it does. They are both long drops that should kill the person falling from them. Lloyd handles his like a champ. Link doesn't.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So, rather than relying on concrete numbers, we should use wild mass guessing about what you "feel" is correct? No. 😛 Just no.
<3

No, you should take into account that it is a fantasy game, and as such is not bound by the laws of physics.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Speed which doesn't matter at all. Link is still a lightning timer, but that doesn't matter either, because Link has deku nuts and can one shot Lloyd who cannot even physicly harm Link.
As Scenario mentioned, I got numbers for Ganondorf's lightning. It was possibly the most ridiculous math ever done on KMC, but it's accurate. Numbers are, and always will be, more reliable than a general impression or guess.

Let's not forget that was Link in his weakest incarnation, as a child, without the ToC, who had not slept for atleast three days. ****, a nap was in order, regardless of the fall. haermm It does not in anyway diminish Link's showings as an adult. Also, if Tac is so bent on using gameplay, let's include:

Link can survive hits from Moblins so strong that they can shake the ground by striking it, and Ganon himself, who shatters stone and sends Link flying all the way across the battleground until he hits something. ect.

These are just a little inconsistent with Tac's claims of "falling damage". 😬

The facts are, Link is too durable for Lloyd to harm, and can kill him in one hit, which Lloyd cannot stop from happening, because no matter how much he attacks Link, he achieves nothing.

Link having health is gameplay mechanics. What hurts him isn't. Moblins, Stalfos, Ganon and yes, long falls. All are dangerous to Link. The fact that Link looses hearts instead of breaking his legs is a gameplay mechanic. Not the fact that those things can hurt him.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I will address this school of foolishness when I come back from this wild sex party I am attending. uhuh

... it's not really a wild sex party. I'm going to work. 🙁

No reason you can't make it one if enough creativity and alcohol is involved. 😄

Originally posted by TacDavey
Not everything can be calculated because not everything in fantasy makes sense. It is run by nothing more than the imagination of the person creating it. You cannot break a persons imagination down to numbers.

Anything can happen in fantasy, and it does not have to follow the laws of physics or anything else for that matter.

Actually you can. Everything comes down to numbers. "Laws of physics" is a loose term created by humans for a false state of security in knowledge, a delusional concept which they use to say what can and can't be done.

Magic, fiction, imagination. It can all be calculated, no matter if it's intended to be doable or not. Just because something ain't real, tangible or well thought out, doesn't mean it's not open for calculation. Just give me the numbers.

Not having the numbers doesn't mean they aren't there, just that you aren't capable of getting them. Everything that is, has a structure, and anything that has a structure, can be calculated.

Don't blame fiction, fantasy or magic for your lack of numbers on the matter. It's a naive delusion to think that the laws of physics matter. That it's some absolute law, or that it define what's calculable and not.

So everything is definable by mathematics? 😮

So if we can't use real life as a measuring stick what should we? Our own personal opinions? How would we know for sure that Link isn't the size of a galaxy compared to Lloyd? How do we know for certain that the rock pillar link threw doesn't weigh 46 trillion tons in his universe? Most of the things link does are human impossibilities not physical impossibilities.

Saying that math can't be applied to fantasy is a bad cop out. It may not be perfect but it really is the best way.

Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
things link does are human impossibilities not physical impossibilities.

Magic is doing the impossible. 😐

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
[b]Magic is doing the impossible. 😐 [/B]

Nah. All it takes is misdirection, along with sleight of hand. 😛

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah. All it takes is misdirection, along with sleight of hand. 😛

I don't think what Link does could be classified as misdirection. 😛

Whatever you say bro's.

Lloyd breaks his arm trying to slash link with his sword. Hes too weak.

Likely his sword would break on Link before he'd break his arm. Or he'd drop it. 😮

Looking over Tac's post, he basicly said:
-Math doesn't work because it's fantasy, and fantasy doesn't make sense, and therefore cannot be mathed. His way of "rejecting" Link's feats, I suppose.

If this is true, no fantasy can ever be compared to any other cause it's all "Fantasy" and therefore unquantifiable. IE, it holds no water.

He also cited gameplay enemies being able to hurt Link who cannot actually be proven to be able to hurt Link, or to be weak. AND to top it off, the gap between a Moblin able to send shokcwaves through the eareth that can throw a man Link's size, and a simple fall, are phenomenal, even if the Moblin can hurt Link, a fall cannot. That's logic. Link taking falling damage is an obvious gameplay mechanic when we have cutscenes of his weakest incarnation being fine after falls, and we have a cutscene of him taking more force than a terminal velocity fall could ever create.

IE:

Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Whatever you say bro's.

Lloyd breaks his arm trying to slash link with his sword. Hes too weak.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Likely his sword would break on Link before he'd break his arm. Or he'd drop it. 😮

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Actually you can. Everything comes down to numbers. "Laws of physics" is a loose term created by humans for a false state of security in knowledge, a delusional concept which they use to say what can and can't be done.

Magic, fiction, imagination. It can all be calculated, no matter if it's intended to be doable or not. Just because something ain't real, tangible or well thought out, doesn't mean it's not open for calculation. Just give me the numbers.

Not having the numbers doesn't mean they aren't there, just that you aren't capable of getting them. Everything that is, has a structure, and anything that has a structure, can be calculated.

Don't blame fiction, fantasy or magic for your lack of numbers on the matter. It's a naive delusion to think that the laws of physics matter. That it's some absolute law, or that it define what's calculable and not. [/B]

Okay, I guess I don't quite understand what you're saying. What do you mean, give you the numbers? What if I made up a guy who could throw 45 ton rocks a thousand yards but couldn't pick up a 2 pound weight?

Run those numbers for me. What's his strength?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Looking over Tac's post, he basicly said:
-Math doesn't work because it's fantasy, and fantasy doesn't make sense, and therefore cannot be mathed. His way of "rejecting" Link's feats, I suppose.

If this is true, no fantasy can ever be compared to any other cause it's all "Fantasy" and therefore unquantifiable. IE, it holds no water.

He also cited gameplay enemies being able to hurt Link who cannot actually be proven to be able to hurt Link, or to be weak. AND to top it off, the gap between a Moblin able to send shokcwaves through the eareth that can throw a man Link's size, and a simple fall, are phenomenal, even if the Moblin can hurt Link, a fall cannot. That's logic. Link taking falling damage is an obvious gameplay mechanic when we have cutscenes of his weakest incarnation being fine after falls, and we have a cutscene of him taking more force than a terminal velocity fall could ever create.

IE:

Yeah, that's what I said. Fantasy isn't the real world. It doesn't have to run according to mathematical anything. It runs off of what the developers want it to.

They have the ability to hurt Link. They are a threat, that's why Link needs a shield. He has to fight them, because there is the possibility they can kill him. The gameplay mechanics part of that is that he looses a heart icon instead of, say, having a cut on his stomach or a slash across his face. That doesn't change the fact that Link has to defend himself against those enemies.

Yeah, that's what I said. Fantasy isn't the real world. It doesn't have to run according to mathematical anything. It runs off of what the developers want it to.

I don't need math to illustrate to you why blocking Ganon's attack in a cutscene > gameplay. And I don't need math to explain that it makes him too durable for Lloyd to hurt, either.

Link's feats > Lloyd. Link wins.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So you can no longer argue against Link's feats and instead are throwing a tantrum and saying. "That doesn't count!!!!"

I don't need math to illustrate to you why blocking Ganon's attack in a cutscene > gameplay. And I don't need math to explain that it makes him too durable for Lloyd to hurt, either.

Link's feats > Lloyd. Link wins.

Not at all, but you seem to want to apply math to any and everything in the game to the point of claiming a magic ball Ganon throws weighs 12 tons, or something like that.

Math only goes so far in fantasy. Arguments like that take it over the line.

You rely on physics and math to make a claim that Link is invincible to anything that isn't super super strong because you take a quick cut scene and over analyze the crap out of it. Especially when, as I have pointed out, the enemies he fights aren't super super strong, but they are still a threat.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Not at all, but you seem to want to apply math to any and everything in the game to the point of claiming a magic ball Ganon throws weighs 12 tons, or something like that.

Math only goes so far in fantasy. Arguments like that take it over the line.

You rely on physics and math to make a claim that Link is invincible to anything that isn't super super strong because you take a quick cut scene and over analyze the crap out of it. Especially when, as I have pointed out, the enemies he fights aren't super super strong, but they are still a threat.

You cannot use "it's fantasy" as a cop out to avoid the quantification of feats. All fiction is fiction, if we do not quantify feats v.s. threads are pointless. Unless you can prove Link's world has different gravity or whatnot than every other fictional universe which uses the laws of our world for their basis, you have no argument.

Link is invincible against anything that lacks super strength. He has multiple cutscenes displaying great durability, that's the best one.

1. Prove the enemies he fights aren't super strong.
2. Prove they pose a threat?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The first two points are varied forms of denial. The math is accurate, and you have nothing that goes against it. It represents [b]accurately the forces involved in each feat.

You cannot use "it's fantasy" as a cop out to avoid the quantification of feats. All fiction is fiction, if we do not quantify feats v.s. threads are pointless. Unless you can prove Link's world has different gravity or whatnot than every other fictional universe which uses the laws of our world for their basis, you have no argument.

Link is invincible against anything that lacks super strength. He has multiple cutscenes displaying great durability, that's the best one.

1. Prove the enemies he fights aren't super strong.
2. Prove they pose a threat? [/B]

It's not denial at all. You can't claim "it's fantasy so we don't know anything" but at the same time you cannot completely relate what happens in a fantasy world with our world. You need it somewhere in the middle, not the extreme of either side.

1. Skultullas are tiny spiders. Stallchildren are flimsy little skeletons. Deku scrubs shoot tiny seeds, and not fast either. Poes hit you with lanterns that break when they fall to the ground.

Another thing to point out. A wooden shield takes blows that hurt Link.

It's extremely foolish to assume that EVERY SINGLE enemy in Hyrule, even the OBVIOUSLY weak ones, are super super super strong because they can hurt Link. Do I really need to pull Occam's Razor out again?

2. They can hurt Link. He needs to defend himself against them. They pose a threat.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, I guess I don't quite understand what you're saying. What do you mean, give you the numbers? What if I made up a guy who could throw 45 ton rocks a thousand yards but couldn't pick up a 2 pound weight?

Run those numbers for me. What's his strength?

Yeah, that's what I said. Fantasy isn't the real world. It doesn't have to run according to mathematical anything. It runs off of what the developers want it to.

They have the ability to hurt Link. They are a threat, that's why Link needs a shield. He has to fight them, because there is the possibility they can kill him. The gameplay mechanics part of that is that he looses a heart icon instead of, say, having a cut on his stomach or a slash across his face. That doesn't change the fact that Link has to defend himself against those enemies.

His strength is inconsistent, which apply Albert Einstein's concept of us not knowing what's actually true and not. You're right though, it's possible to create characters and events that defy mathematics, but that doesn't mean there aren't numbers. There were numbers, you just chose to direct the argument elsewhere. The weight was 2 pounds, and the rock was 45 ton. The character is logically flawed, that doesn't change the numbers. He'll still have a muscle mass, and a display of power.

Don't blame an idiotic design flaw in a character on the numbers he fail to work with. The numbers are still there, he just can't manage them. My statement stands, that everything that has a structure can be calculated.

In addition, you fail to comprehend that our world does not necessarily equal truth. You can't calculate magic according to our science, because it doesn't exist. It does, however, exist in this world and can therefore in that world be calculable. If you lack the numbers to do so, though, that's a different problem. Doesn't mean they aren't there.

So allow me to explain what I mean by "give me the numbers"
There are numbers on everything. Just because we don't know them, doesn't mean they aren't there. Just because the creator of some fictional piece doesn't have any numbers, doesn't mean they aren't there in that piece.
"Give me the numbers" is calling out the fact that if it exist, it consist of something. Something means it has either molecules or any type of variety to it. It is, to its core, built.

You can argue it all you want, just because it's a piece of your imagination or fiction, doesn't mean there aren't numbers. Just that you don't know them.

You make the mistake of assuming the numbers we use in our universe are absolute. If you want to calculate magic, Heavens know you might have to use yourself of a new type of substance.
"In order to calculate the damage output of this magic missile, we need to find the sum for what two Magic and three Arcane divided by four Divinity is."

Let go of your obsession in reality. Fiction ain't reality, ergo we might need more than our feeble laws of physics to figure some things out.

I was gonna post a vid in here, but I aint too sure if I should. The content is.... questionable... 😛

Ok, I got permission from queeq to post these, as long as I put up a disclaimer for it.

GK EDIT: No. The last fight on this vid is right up your alleys. (No puns intended.... you'll see what I mean)
GK EDIT: Denied. The 1st fight is where your at.

Now, Please be warned, the videos in these links are semi-graphic and may offend some viewers, you have all been duely warned.

GK EDIT: Then don't post them. Duh.

What is 69/0?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ok, I got permission from queeq to post these, as long as I put up a disclaimer for it.

Peach says not a chance in hell. The last fight on this vid is right up your alleys. (No puns intended.... you'll see what I mean)

Peach also says that disclaimers do not make inappropriate content for KMC permissable. The 1st fight is where your at.

Now, Please be warned, the videos in these links are semi-graphic and may offend some viewers, you have all been duely warned.

How is this relevant to the thread at all?

And I can't imagine that video any good for anyone but sexually starved teenage boys, whose blood will rally at first sight of (barely) explicit content.

I am of course all ears to hear how that contribute in any way to the thread. The only purpose I can imagine it'll serve, is fire up various fans of various characters.

Sorry to hijack your post, Marie, GK forgot to kill the links out of this one. - P