So what you're saying is that in scenarios and scenes completely seperate from this one, lightning has been used.Watch video again, observe lightning in Ganon's hand.Well woopdido. How does this have anything to do ith this scene?
Prove that the attack was lightning-based or kindly drop the point.
I don't always herp, but when I do, I derp.
At what point did you fall under the misrepresentation that I was arguing Lloyd vs Link? My argument has always been concerned with that one feat.THEN YOU ARE AS USELESS AS YOUR DEAD SIDEKICK!
Well at least now your using a game that comes before OoT to back up if Gannon from OoT could use lightning. The only problem is, that the attack in the final battle isn't actual Lightning. It's an electrical attack.
Also... http://www.zeldawiki.org/Trident
From what I read, the trident gave him the power to shoot lightning, and a few other powers. The trident never made an appearance in OoT, so I doubt Gannon would still have those powers the trident gave him at the time. Well actually Phantom Gannon has one now that I think about it, but it was never said that was the same trident. Also note, that I never played The second four swords game, so I don't know much about it. I just used what research I could find. What is Gannon able to do in that game before he gets the trident?
Ball Lightning isn't exactly a proper term for it. An electric ball fits it better. It's sad that you still fail to see the difference between the two.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Really, so the Triforce of Power grants different abilities the longer a person is in possession of it?
I never said that, you did, but if you see a character do something in a game that comes later in the series, you can't say they can do it in a game that comes before it. Especially when they show no evidence of having that power in the game.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Linkownsyousobs also brought up a good point. It isn't real lightning, this has been established. You cannot simply say, "Ganon shoots lightning cuz he did it in other games."Thank you. A voice of reason.
Your welcome. At least you understand the difference between electricity and lightning. Another point I brought out when this argument came up in a different thread is that the simple fact that Gannon threw the attack proves it isn't going Lightning speed. Lightning is shot, not thrown. 😐
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Go back and read your own post, you used the term "trust me" and insisted on what the developers would do, and still are doing so "if an attack was that fast the gameplay MUST show it!!", no, it must not do anything.
Because you said the developers slowed that attack. You were using that as defense to prove the attack is actually faster when in reality it isn't. You insisted on what the developers would do by saying 'they slowed a ball for the players'. I simply said there's nothing to suggest they did. The fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganondorf's lightning attacks are full speed in canon, this is a lightning attack. ????? Profit? ****, the underpants gnomes could figure this one out. no expression You are consistently not only citing gameplay mechanics, but a LACK of a gameplay mechanic. Does a lack of a breath bar in the NSMBWii mean Mario can breathe underwater? no expressionLloyd blocked, IE, for all we know he stood infront of the bolt and tanked it. Link legitimately sent lightning bolts back at Ganondorf multiple times, by striking it as it came at him, this is a superior feat. And it was not a magic ball designed to be reflected, this is a property specificly attributed to the master sword which has been in use since 1991.
We see the feat on screen, we know that it's lightning, we know how fast Ganon's lightning is. Link has a feat. Get over it, and bring some feats for Lloyd.
Non Sequitur. Your conclusion is nowhere implied by its premises. You're saying that a floating magic ball which features sparks it is actually a lightning bolt and that is moving at lightning speed. And you say it as if I would have to accept it. Then according to you 'Ganon used lightning before, this is actually the same attack, but it looks slower just because they made it for the players'. If they had full lightning attacks in older games and players still played the games without problems, then why you say they slowed this one for the players? And yeah... I am using gameplay when I'm actually supporting a feat outside of it, on the other hand you present a move that comes directly from a gameplay fight, but you're not using gameplay. Great, I get that.
Originally posted by GrieverSquallmariofacepalm Greiver mah boi, allow me to explain.
Because you said the developers slowed that attack. You were using that as defense to prove the attack is actually faster when in reality it isn't. You insisted on what the developers would do by saying 'they slowed a ball for the players'. I simply said there's nothing to suggest they did. The fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes.Non Sequitur. Your conclusion is nowhere implied by its premises. You're saying that a floating magic ball which features sparks it is actually a lightning bolt and that is moving at lightning speed. And you say it as if I would have to accept it. Then according to you 'Ganon used lightning before, this is actually the same attack, but it looks slower just because they made it for the players'. If they had full lightning attacks in older games and players still played the games without problems, then why you say they slowed this one for the players? And yeah... I am using gameplay when I'm actually supporting a feat outside of it, on the other hand you present a move that comes directly from a gameplay fight, but you're not using gameplay. Great, I get that.
Ganon's lightning attacks are at full speed.
Ganon used lightning.
For lightning to move slower than electricity through air, it would require Ganondorf to intentionally slow it down. He has no reason to do so.
The only time the attack is ever slow is when the player is supposed to reflect it.
Link canonicly did so to complete OoT.
The above are facts, put them together. Herp.
Now, are you done attempting to downplay Link's feats? Are you ever going to post some for Lloyd who until you provide feats cannot hurt Link, or survive a hit from him? All he's done so far is display that hew can block electricity. Link can deflect it. Kool.
Link also has gigajoule level strength and durability. Advantage: Link.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Watch video again, observe lightning in Ganon's hand.
What video are you talking about? The one where Gannon charges a yellow ball and hits young Link at point blank range and then evaporates into little balls of light? How does this video prove his attack was Lightning? Enlighten me. 😬
Let me also note that when I was researching Gannon, I found out that in other games he is also known for attacking with fireballs and balls of light, and that his attack on young Link in OoT is described as dark magic, not Lightning.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I have a question, LOYS, what is electricity that passes through the air, and how fast does it move? Edit, and the trident /does/ appear in OoT, phantom Ganon and Ganon boss battles.
You seriously can't believe that an electrical attack has the same travel speed as a lightning bolt. As far as it's molecular structure and properties, yes, they're the same, but an electric attack, and a Lightning bolt are two different things.
To answer your question, in this case, its a magic electrical ball that was thrown at Link, and it depends on how hard Gannon can throw it. 😛
When does Gannon have it in the boss battle? I only remember Phantom Gannon wielding a trident in OoT, and I'm not even sure if it's the same one. Do u know what happens to the trident at the end of FSA?
Also, I'm done with this for now, I'm gonna play XBL while I have the chance to tonight. I'll check the thread later on.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm Greiver mah boi, allow me to explain.Ganon's lightning attacks are at full speed.
Ganon used lightning.
For lightning to move slower than electricity through air, it would require Ganondorf to intentionally slow it down. He has no reason to do so.
The only time the attack is ever slow is when the player is supposed to reflect it.
Link canonicly did so to complete OoT.
The above are facts, put them together. Herp.
Now, are you done attempting to downplay Link's feats? Are you ever going to post some for Lloyd who until you provide feats cannot hurt Link, or survive a hit from him? All he's done so far is display that hew can block electricity. Link can deflect it. Kool.
Link also has gigajoule level strength and durability. Advantage: Link.
Uhh, right. Except they aren't lightning bolts.
Once again, you're using developers intentions as defense. As I said before, I see no reason to think that the developers had to intentionally slow down the attack for the players. There is no indication of such, there's no factual evidence indicating what you suggest. That fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes. In fact, I'm not even using any argument to combat yours, as I do not need to. I mean... I don't have to prove that a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed is a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed.
YOU must back up your claims. You must prove that a magical sphere that floats through air and can be reflected back and forth by sword's swings is actually a lightning bolt that moves so fast that is not even visible. The burden of proof is on you. And for the record, just because something has sparks effects placed on it, does not necessarily means it will move a lightning speed.
Anyway. As for your point concerning other games having lightning attacks, it does not serve to validate your stance. I reiterate, if they had lightning attacks in previous games, and players still played without problems, then I cannot understand your concept of having this game slowed down for the players. The answer to this is actually easy, they aren't the same attacks. Furthermore, Tac mentioned there is an enemy called 'Barinade' which actually uses electric attacks in the game, but according to you and for some odd reason electric attacks became floating spheres in this fight.
Tac, Neph, linkownsyoursobs and I gave enough reasons to invalidate your points in previous pages. But instead of responding to the current refutations, the only thing you've been doing is bringing up them again. That is usually called argumentum ad nauseam. Trying to prove something by stating it again and again. But repeating yourself, won't make your argument more nor less valid than before.
And we're not ''downplaying'' anything, why everyone gets mad and brings up that term when someone is simply disagreeing with an argument? Saying 'Link wins' does not make it be, that is NOT how debates works, ScreamPaste. You gave reasons in past pages to think Link was probably strong enough to be able defeat Lloyd, or at least to assume he could do it. But we all gave more than enough reasons to think otherwise, mostly Tac in his first post page number 5. You know, the one you evidently failed to refute. And that's still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay fight to draw a ''feat'' from it.
Watch video again, observe lightning in Ganon's hand.I don't always herp, but when I do, I derp.
Only if you watch it and observe it being round and not being as fast as lightning.
THEN YOU ARE AS USELESS AS YOUR DEAD SIDEKICK!
MY DEAD SIDEKICKS BODY SHIELDS ME FROM YOUR CRITICISM! PEW PEW, BOUNCED OFF THE DEFLECTOR DISH MOTHER****ER!
There wouldn't be any effects of the primordial black hole that would have to be present. But Ganon can make good use of the power in other fights by combining multiples. Then there would be visible effects.You still don't seem to be reading.
Well, except he's never shown the ability or power to do that at all. Just because someone has a computer doesn't mean he hack NASA, and just becuase Ganon might use black holes in the creation of his ball lightning, which you have no way of proving that he did btw, doesn't mean that he knows how to combine multiple blackholes to create a singularity (or whatever). Its not like he's a physicist or anything.
Firstly you have no way of proving he does use black holes (by your own admission, it is just a hypothesis, not scientific fact), and secondly even if he does he hasn't shown the ability with that power to actually do anything with it beyond making ball lightning, which again, we don't know that he did.
Is that enough reading? 😬
Indeed I don't have a way to prove it. The black hole theory for Ball Lightning is just one of many hypotheses. All of which have a similar base and result if applied. They either do not apply to the situation Ganon uses this attack in, or they would require him to have a power we didn't know about to perform.
Scream:
This is becoming more of the same, so instead of having a huge response I'm going to simplify the argument.
There are two possibilities for Ganon's attack
1. It is a lightning bolt that looks like a ball for some reason, you claim gameplay, and it is moving at super speeds but we don't notice because right as he throws it time itself slows down to allow us to see it even though there is no evidence of this and it cannot really be proven at all.
OR
2. It's a magic energy ball that has electricity elements to it.
Occam's Razor states that number 2 is the more logical as it is the simpler explanation. Your only course of action is now to show that point 2 is IMPOSSIBLE. Because as long as it's a possible explanation it is the simpler one and thus the more logical. I'm waiting.
Indeed I don't have a way to prove it. The black hole theory for Ball Lightning is just one of many hypotheses. All of which have a similar base and result if applied. They either do not apply to the situation Ganon uses this attack in, or they would require him to have a power we didn't know about to perform.
Lol, you do know what magic is right?
Will try not to say much on this, dont want one side running off again. Alot of the arguments are clutching to a strawman. ''You think its ball lightning so Ganon can create black holes.'' ''You're trying to say Dorf sabotaged himself if you think the attack is slower.'' No ones saying any of this.
Want to bring up the 'used it before/cant just get new powers' part. OoT pre-dates all other games, unless MC if you follow that idea, so bringing up him doing it in a later game is pointless, and as Scenario displayed in that clip Dorf does have other similar attacks. From the same game no less:
YouTube video
(PS being a few feet from him and the flash its hard to tell if it was fast or not.)
YouTube video
^One has him charging darkness to form a light orb, the other has electricity to do the same. Figured Scene would have picked up on that. The attack used later is a different one OR this attack became the electric one, and that would take away the notion of lightning speed. Both ways speak against the speed wanted.
Unless theres a good, solid reason its hard to say it is 'cause it is. Even then the person cant always be a lightning timer, its the reason the weakest pokemon/humans or characters in The Avatar do it with speed and reactions well below sonic speeds.
OH! No ones brought up the pacing. Throughout OoT and TP both Link's shown human speed and human reactions. Nothing more, and sometimes less. (Yes, I've got some vids to back this up is they're needed/wanted) Now why is it to be believed that someone with human speeds for 98% of the game would suddenly jump up to lighting speeds with no power boost, enhancement or reason? Make sense of it will ya.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
A magic attack appearing much slower in gameplay than it can be and has been seen in cut scene. You're just as interesting as the rest of them.I agree, lol. I wouldn't have ever talked about it, but I had to because of this ridiculous accusation of ball lightning.
Magic is the term people use to call someting that can't be explained by science. It's prevelant in tons of fiction, Zelda of course being no exception. Scientifically, I doubt you could explain Nayru's love, which is why it's magic.
I've told both LOYS and Scream to use the cutscene to determine the actual speed of the ball. It just so happens that the cutscene kind sucks in that regard.
Case and point: The developers of the game had Ganondorf using a magical ball of lightning/electricity/whatever. They most likely didn't put thought into it's actual speed and the physics behind in. I doubt they care. They'd be more concerned with making the game playable. So until proven otherwise, the feat is not worth pages of debates.