Lloyd Irving vs Link

Started by GrieverSquall39 pages
Originally posted by BloodRain
(PS being a few feet from him and the flash its hard to tell if it was fast or not.)

I've responded to that video back in page number 5, but these guys just like to ignore the opposition's arguments. In fact, I've said basically the same, with the exception of the 'flash' part.

I've said that when Ganon raises his hand to charge his magic, it's a first person view. And when the magic gets bigger on screen, it is indication that Ganon released the spell and is approaching. So yeah, we can see how fast it moved. And taking into account that Link was pretty near, it is plausible to assume that said spell wasn't moving at some incredible speeds.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Magic is the term people use to call someting that can't be explained by science. It's prevelant in tons of fiction, Zelda of course being no exception. Scientifically, I doubt you could explain Nayru's love, which is why it's magic.

I've told both LOYS and Scream to use the cutscene to determine the actual speed of the ball. It just so happens that the cutscene kind sucks in that regard.

Case and point: The developers of the game had Ganondorf using a magical ball of lightning/electricity/whatever. They most likely didn't put thought into it's actual speed and the physics behind in. I doubt they care. They'd be more concerned with making the game playable. So until proven otherwise, the feat is not worth pages of debates.

👆

Originally posted by Nephthys

👆

says the guy who showed up to do nothing but have pages of debates over the feat. >|

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I've responded to that video back in page number 5, but these guys just like to ignore the opposition's arguments. In fact, I've said basically the same, with the exception of the 'flash' part.

I've said that when Ganon raises his hand to charge his magic, it's a first person view. And when the magic gets bigger on screen, it is indication that Ganon released the spell and is approaching. So yeah, we can see how fast it moved. And taking into account that Link was pretty near, it is plausible to assume that said spell wasn't moving at some incredible speeds.

We never see the attack travelling in a cutscene. 😐

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
says the guy who showed up to do nothing but have pages of debates over the feat. >|

I know right! ^_^

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Uhh, right. Except they aren't lightning bolts.

Once again, you're using developers intentions as defense. As I said before, I see no reason to think that the developers had to intentionally slow down the attack for the players. There is no indication of such, there's no factual evidence indicating what you suggest. That fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes. In fact, I'm not even using any argument to combat yours, as I do not need to. I mean... I don't have to prove that a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed is a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed.

YOU must back up your claims. You must prove that a magical sphere that floats through air and can be reflected back and forth by sword's swings is actually a lightning bolt that moves so fast that is not even visible. The burden of proof is on you. And for the record, just because something has sparks effects placed on it, does not necessarily means it will move a lightning speed.

Anyway. As for your point concerning other games having lightning attacks, it does not serve to validate your stance. I reiterate, if they had lightning attacks in previous games, and players still played without problems, then I cannot understand your concept of having this game slowed down for the players. The answer to this is actually easy, they aren't the same attacks. Furthermore, Tac mentioned there is an enemy called 'Barinade' which actually uses electric attacks in the game, but according to you and for some odd reason electric attacks became floating spheres in this fight.

Tac, Neph, linkownsyoursobs and I gave enough reasons to invalidate your points in previous pages. But instead of responding to the current refutations, the only thing you've been doing is bringing up them again. That is usually called argumentum ad nauseam. Trying to prove something by stating it again and again. But repeating yourself, won't make your argument more nor less valid than before.

And we're not ''downplaying'' anything, why everyone gets mad and brings up that term when someone is simply disagreeing with an argument? Saying 'Link wins' does not make it be, that is NOT how debates works, ScreamPaste. You gave reasons in past pages to think Link was probably strong enough to be able defeat Lloyd, or at least to assume he could do it. But we all gave more than enough reasons to think otherwise, mostly Tac in his first post page number 5. You know, the one you evidently failed to refute. And that's still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay fight to draw a ''feat'' from it.

Cite developer intentions in my post?

I cite
1. Canon
2. Canon

😐 Your "refutation" is nothing but denial and speculation based on gameplay speed as I keep telling you. Gameplay speed is NOT representative of actual speed 90% of the time in games.

I've already proven this point. Ganon's lightning attacks are always full speed unless Link needs to reflect them, ergo: Ganon canonicly has full speed lightning. Therefore, when he uses a lightning attack ---??? Fill in the blanks, boyo. You have not refuted this point, come back with something viable.

Holy shit, dude, reading comprehension. 😐 You mean the times where Link didn't need to reflect them? Link dodged Barinade's lightning. He reflected Ganondorf's. It would really help if you'd played the game.

And you do the same, repeat yourself, rephrasing the same dead, invalid, gameplay points over, and over. There is no argument here, you cite gameplay, I cite canon. You claim Ganon was using a different lightning attack than his full speed one, you need to prove that, which you can't, and explain why Ganon would use an inferior attack on purpose, which you can't, AND is extremely convoluted, Occam's razor: The attack we see is lightning, ----> ???? Fill it in again.

Saying 'Link wins' does not make it be, that is NOT how debates works, ScreamPaste. You gave reasons in past pages to think Link was probably strong enough to be able defeat Lloyd, or at least to assume he could do it. But we all gave more than enough reasons to think otherwise, mostly Tac in his first post page number 5. You know, the one you evidently failed to refute. And that's still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay fight to draw a ''feat'' from it.

I'm not claiming Link wins, I'm telling you that until Lloyd has feats, Link wins. IE, go get some feats rather than sit around trying to disregard Link's. We know Link's speed, strength, and durability.

Lloyd so far has
-A reaction feat.
-Has no strength feat to harm Link
-No durability feat to survive a hit from Link

Go get feats, or concede the argument.

I responded to Tac's post, and guess what? It was more of the same. He looked at the gameplay decided it was > the canon.

His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!

Wtf? No. Go get feats for Lloyd to support that he can win, or concede. THAT is how a debate works. You do not sit around all day plugging your ears and covering your eyes perpetually ignoring things you don't like.

Hey hey. Let's not forget about me.

"His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!"

This is totally NOT my argument summed up. I summed up my argument in my last post. Link's "lightning timer" ability has been refuted from a NUMBER of different angles. It's over.

Occam's Razor is still on my side at the moment. Read my last post.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Hey hey. Let's not forget about me.

"His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!"

This is totally NOT my argument summed up. I summed up my argument in my last post. Link's "lightning timer" ability has been refuted from a NUMBER of different angles. It's over.

Occam's Razor is still on my side at the moment. Read my last post.

Occam's razor has nothing in it about convoluted theories. 😐 So, no, it isn't. Canon is on my side. Got any more feats for Lloyd yet or is this thread over?

Either way Link Defeated Barinade, who also actually used full speed forked lighting. Link would have needed inhuman reaction abilities to deal with his attacks aswell. It's like a guy with a sword defeating a guy with a gun. The sword user would need to be able to deal with bullets.

Occam's razor is actually on the side of my theory, "It's a ****ing video game and I seriously doubt the devs knew what a ****ing primordial black hole is."

Cutscene speed>

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Occam's razor is actually on the side of my theory, "It's a ****ing video game and I seriously doubt the devs knew what a ****ing primordial black hole is."

Cutscene speed>

Or ball lightning. 😛

I will dub it Ki blast. It was a Ki blast.

Or a Volt cannon blast. mmm

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
We never see the attack travelling in a cutscene. 😐

Your reasons? Unlike you I have elaborated my post to back it up.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Cite developer intentions in my post?

I cite
1. Canon
2. Canon

😐 Your "refutation" is nothing but denial and speculation based on [b]gameplay speed as I keep telling you. Gameplay speed is NOT representative of actual speed 90% of the time in games.

I've already proven this point. Ganon's lightning attacks are always full speed unless Link needs to reflect them, ergo: Ganon canonicly has full speed lightning. Therefore, when he uses a lightning attack ---??? Fill in the blanks, boyo. You have not refuted this point, come back with something viable.

Holy shit, dude, reading comprehension. 😐 You mean the times where Link didn't need to reflect them? Link dodged Barinade's lightning. He reflected Ganondorf's. It would really help if you'd played the game.

And you do the same, repeat yourself, rephrasing the same dead, invalid, gameplay points over, and over. There is no argument here, you cite gameplay, I cite canon. You claim Ganon was using a different lightning attack than his full speed one, you need to prove that, which you can't, and explain why Ganon would use an inferior attack on purpose, which you can't, AND is extremely convoluted, Occam's razor: The attack we see is lightning, ----> ???? Fill it in again.

I'm not claiming Link wins, I'm telling you that until Lloyd has feats, Link wins. IE, go get some feats rather than sit around trying to disregard Link's. We know Link's speed, strength, and durability.

Lloyd so far has
-A reaction feat.
-Has no strength feat to harm Link
-No durability feat to survive a hit from Link

Go get feats, or concede the argument.

I responded to Tac's post, and guess what? It was more of the same. He looked at the gameplay decided it was > the canon.

His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!

Wtf? No. Go get feats for Lloyd to support that he can win, or concede. THAT is how a debate works. You do not sit around all day plugging your ears and covering your eyes perpetually ignoring things you don't like. [/B]

Thanks for further proving my point about the fallacy of repetition, ScreamPaste. Anyway, are you done with your meaningless accusations? I'm saying that an attack has been slowed down for the players? I'm trying to draw a 'feat' from a gameplay fight? No? Then I'm not the one using gameplay. Now, you claim developers slowed down that attack for the players? I have responded to that one like hundred of times, but back it up. Link dodged a monter's lightning? Okay, post a video and back it up. This: 'You claim Ganon was using a different lightning attack than his full speed one, you need to prove that' is a Straw Man. I never said such thing in any of my posts, either way, Tac covered that part of your claim about Ganon's abilities. But feel free post a video with that lightning attack for a reference because I haven't played any Zelda game.

And I'm not arguing whether Lloyd wins this fight or not, I just came to point out that I agreed with Tac about the lightning argument and I was suddenly involved in the discussion. I haven't playing any games.

Poor Lloyd. No one loves him. 🙁

Your reasons? Unlike you I have elaborated my post to back it up.

How about in the cutscene we never see it travel? It goes from Ganon's hand to hitting Link. The video speaks for itself.

Alright, Griever, you're clearly not seeing the problem with your argument, so how about this:

Without citing gameplay, prove to me that Ganon's attacks are infact not lightning speed, when the canon points to the fact that they are? Can you do that? I don't think you can, but if you can actually support your argument with something I'll listen. Currently you haven't.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Occam's razor has nothing in it about convoluted theories. 😐 So, no, it isn't. Canon is on my side. Got any more feats for Lloyd yet or is this thread over?

What a stunning refutation. I particularly enjoyed the part where you DIDN'T refute the argument, and simply called it convoluted.

Do we need to run through the basics of debating?

I'll ask again. Prove that my theory is impossible. As long as it's a possible explanation, then it's the simpler one, and (Occam's Razor here we go!) thus it's more logical.

If you guys want, I can play mediator here. I have no love or hate against Link.


How about in the cutscene we never see it travel? It goes from Ganon's hand to hitting Link.

Actually we do see it travel. It moves towards the camera. At not even close to lightning speeds I might add.

Without citing gameplay, prove to me that Ganon's attacks are infact not lightning speed,

No, that isn't how arguments work. First you need to prove or show some evidence towards the idea that it is lightning speed. Then he can refute it. So go ahead, but I can guarantee you can't do it without citing gameplay, at which point he can easily fire back by also citing gameplay that easily trumps your own.

when the canon points to the fact that they are?

What 'canon'? That in appearances after this one he uses lightning based attacks that look nothing like and have nothing to do with this one? Yes, very compelling.

ToP doesn't grant different powers the longer a person is in possession of it.

Its not the same attack so its bullshit to compare them. Besides, a person can grow more experienced and learn new ways to using their powers over time. See: every single piece of superhero fiction ever.