Originally posted by ares834
They shaped the world... I guess Gods may not be the most accurate term for them, but in truth neither is "demi-god". Regardless, they are equivelient with mytholigical gods, while the maiar are equivilant with demigods. There functions and roles are all similar.
I would put the Valar on level with the Titans, which were not Gods and the Greek Gods were more Demi-Gods.
The Maiar are definitely not demi-Gods since they cannot create complete life. Technically, neither are the Valar, but they are pretty dang close because they are more like Titans, except they can form stuff in the Universe.
And, I thought Eru was the one that created the universe? Or was it the songs of the 15 Valar? I don't remember, anymore.
Dr. Manhattan would be an example of a Demi-God, though.
Originally posted by ares834
He knocks a Spartan back several feet... Its impressive but not Sauron level yet.
A Fully Armored Spartan II weighs over 1000lbs. The other solider is also in full body tactical armor. His weight, while not close to 1000lbs, is definitely pushing 400-600, at least.
Considering it wasn't a gravity hammer strike and only a "fling" from the Brute, that should more than prove to you that the Brute's are much stronger than Sauron's magic enhanced mace.
Originally posted by ares834
[B]He knocks a Spartan back several feet... Its impressive but not Sauron level yet.
Creating 4 foot wide craters in solid earth > knocking people away.
Umm not even close. He kicks the brute back no more than a dozen feet, who then falls down a waterfall.
Kicking a 9 foot tall 800 pound animal 12 feet with a single kick > knocking 5'10 fairys away.
Seriously dude, wiki it, since it would be allowed in the absence of any information from the movies regarding Numenorean stature, yes?
Wiki Sauron.
Wiki Elendil.
Wiki Everything or something idk
Now tell me, is flinging around fully armor guys like ragdolls, and instantly killing them, not impressive?
Also, lets see a troll stab a spartan with a spear, no shields. That spartan happens to be f***ked, thank you. Mithril withstood it.
As per Tolkiens intentions, mithril is pretty much indestructible......
Originally posted by Robtard
What do yo base that last part on? Creation and/or giving of life is something more associated with Godhood, no?
Which is exactly what the Valar cannot do: create life. They specifically need Eru to do that. The Titans are more Demi-Gods than the Valar are.
Originally posted by Pwned
Seriously dude, wiki it, since it would be allowed in the absence of any information from the movies regarding Numenorean stature, yes?Wiki Sauron.
Wiki Elendil.
Wiki Everything or something idkNow tell me, is flinging around fully armor guys like ragdolls, and instantly killing them, not impressive?
Also, lets see a troll stab a spartan with a spear, no shields. That spartan happens to be f***ked, thank you. Mithril withstood it.
As per Tolkiens intentions, mithril is pretty much indestructible......
Gotta stick to the movies and the movie "extras", not the books. There's a HUGE amount of book materials from Halo...comics too. We could use tons of stuff on that. We gotta stick to the movies, because both sides have lots of stuff.
That said, no, sorry, the humans that fought Sauron were regular sized humans. None of this Nummie stuff that people have been trying to pass off: that's not the case. I've already provided canon evidence that Sauron was in the form of a large man. If those humans were as large as you say, then they'd be as large or larger than Sauron. Not the case. We gotta stick to what was seen onscreen.
Additionally, that doesn't come close to a fully armored Spartann II, in both size and weight.
Dude, they were Numenorians by definition that Gondor and Arnor were NUMENOREAN kingdoms, and the fact that IN THE MOVIES, they were, and they came from there, as they were the NUMENOREAN kingdoms of MEN. (Numenorean men)
They were taller and heavier, and mroe skilled than a normal human. Why debate that? Sauron STILL ***** slapped them around, throwing them a good distance for a 400 pound thing
Also, a "large man" is not definable, as it jsut says large, he could have been 15 feet tall for all we know, they came up to hi neck in that movie
What's this bullshit about them not being Numenoreans? So they didn't say it in the movie. So what? They also never mentioned Eru, Beleriand, Rhovanion, Khand, Radagast, Mirkwood, or the names of every character in the mythos. Just because they're never mentioned in the movie doesn't mean it doesn't occur within the mythos. This is just useless nitpicking in an attempt to prove a point.
Originally posted by Pwned
Dude, they were Numenorians by definition that Gondor and Arnor were NUMENOREAN kingdoms, and the fact that IN THE MOVIES, they were, and they came from there, as they were the NUMENOREAN kingdoms of MEN. (Numenorean men)
I did not see "numenorean" mentioned, once.
Regardless, they were not larger than any other men: they were the same. Had Jackson wanted to do that, he could have. With either extras casting or effects, similar to how it di the hobbits as smaller.
Originally posted by Pwned
They were taller and heavier, and mroe skilled than a normal human. Why debate that? Sauron STILL ***** slapped them around, throwing them a good distance for a 400 pound thing
This is the MVF, not fantasy VF. They were not 7 foot tall men.
Originally posted by Pwned
Also, a "large man" is not definable, as it jsut says large, he could have been 15 feet tall for all we know, they came up to hi neck in that movie
Actually, yes, we know exactly how he wanted to do it as he specifically said that he wasn't gigantic. Large man could be alllll they way up to Wadlow: 8 Feet 11" or 272 CM.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What's this bullshit about them not being Numenoreans? So they didn't say it in the movie. So what? They also never mentioned Eru, Beleriand, Rhovanion, Khand, Radagast, Mirkwood, or the names of every character in the mythos. Just because they're never mentioned in the movie doesn't mean it doesn't occur within the mythos. This is just useless nitpicking in an attempt to prove a point.
You can't use the false idea that Nummies are 7 foot tall, 300lbs, beastly men, in the MVF because they weren't that way in the movie.
That's not "useless nitpicking", that's following the MVF rules. You cannot assign traits to individuals that did not exist in the films. I take it a step further and say that the extras on the movies should be allowed: thought that is up to the thread starter.
As I've pointed out, already, even IF you could pass them off as very tall me, they are still men. They would be turned to pudding inside of the Mark VI armor, anyway, because they do not have the genetic enhancements required to even use it. It's a pointless "counter-example" because a Spartan II is >>>>>>>>>>>>> than a Nummie in every single physical attribute you can think of minus that some were taller than Spartan IIs.
Originally posted by dadudemonI don't care about how tall they appear to be, or how strong we think they are. What I dislike is people here saying that something from a pre-established universe or setting can't be held here because "it wasn't mentioned". I'm fine with diminishing their size for the movie because that is how it was shown, but to say the aren't Numenoreans because "it wasn't mentioned" is nitpicking. We may as well say that they didn't have genitalia because we never see their dicks. You could follow that train and say that nothing happened in Middle-Earth before the rings were forged, because we're never shown it happening. Or that Morgoth's appearance is that off a stubby midget because he's never described to us by Legolas.
You can't use the false idea that Nummies are 7 foot tall, 300lbs, beastly men, in the MVF because they weren't that way in the movie.That's not "useless nitpicking", that's following the MVF rules. You cannot assign traits to individuals that did not exist in the films. I take it a step further and say that the extras on the movies should be allowed: thought that is up to the thread starter.
As I've pointed out, already, even IF you could pass them off as very tall me, they are still men. They would be turned to pudding inside of the Mark VI armor, anyway, because they do not have the genetic enhancements required to even use it. It's a pointless "counter-example" because a Spartan II is >>>>>>>>>>>>> than a Nummie in every single physical attribute you can think of minus that some were taller than Spartan IIs.
Visual appearances =👆 Let's use them. But can we stop omitting every bit of history and descriptive just because no character mentioned it?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm fine with diminishing their size for the movie because that is how it was shown, but to say the aren't Numenoreans because "it wasn't mentioned" is nitpicking.
Not it's not. If they were who people said they were, they would be going toe-to-toe with Sauron.
Gil-galad and Elendil took down Sauron, but they were killed in the process. When Sauron's broken body did nothing (he was unconscious or whatever), Isildur cut off the ring with the broken sword.
This makes two things: Sauron's body was "physical."
Sauron could be beaten down by two large men.
In the movies, normal sized men could do nothing.
You can call it nitpicking, I'll stick to the MVF rules. If it didn't happen on screen, it can't be used in the MVF. If they REALLY were nummies, then they would have been much larger and could have taken out Sauron.
Edit - Also, that fight took place right by Sauron's tower and we weren't even close to that tower in the movies. The war was waged for over 7 years in mordor: we definitely were not in Mordor, in the film.
Do you see why all of these reasons means we can't make sweeping assumptions?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
We may as well say that they didn't have genitalia because we never see their dicks. You could follow that train and say that nothing happened in Middle-Earth before the rings were forged, because we're never shown it happening. Or that Morgoth's appearance is that off a stubby midget because he's never described to us by Legolas.
But, see, that would be just being an ass to prove a point.
The movies changed many things and we cannot speculate what happened before those ages as the movies are canon to themselves, in the MVF.
In other words, you can't say:
"So and so is this type of human."
When that was never mentioned.
That's baseless speculation.
You also cannot say, "this happened before the movie." Because that was never mentioned.
You can make certain assumptions, however: gravity appears to work. Men and women are in the movie played by real men and women, so they most likely have bawlz, cowks, baginers, and bewbz.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Visual appearances =👆 Let's use them. But can we stop omitting every bit of history and descriptive just because no character mentioned it?
No, we omit all history that is not in the movie. Golden Rule of the MVF.
Originally posted by dadudemonSo lemme get this straight: Dwarves are never mentioned as living longer than men, ergo in the movies they live exactly as long as men. Men are never mentioned has having testes, ergo they don't. The early Gondorians are never mentioned as Numenorians, ergo they aren't (regardless of just what a Numenorean is, it doesn't matter). Sauron is never described as immortal, ergo he's not (he just lives a ling time). The forging of Narsil is never described as having taken place, ergo it didn't, ergo, Narsil is eternal. Same can be said for Elrond, whose birth is never even hinted at.
Not it's not. If they were who people said they were, they would be going toe-to-toe with Sauron.Gil-galad and Elendil took down Sauron, but they were killed in the process. When Sauron's broken body did nothing (he was unconscious or whatever), Isildur cut off the ring with the broken sword.
This makes two things: Sauron's body was "physical."
Sauron could be beaten down by two large men.
In the movies, normal sized men could do nothing.
You can call it nitpicking, I'll stick to the MVF rules. If it didn't happen on screen, it can't be used in the MVF. If they REALLY were nummies, then they would have been much larger and could have taken out Sauron.
Edit - Also, that fight took place right by Sauron's tower and we weren't even close to that tower in the movies. The war was waged for over 7 years in mordor: we definitely were not in Mordor, in the film.
Do you see why all of these reasons means we can't make sweeping assumptions?
But, see, that would be just being an ass to prove a point.
The movies changed many things and we cannot speculate what happened before those ages as the movies are canon to themselves, in the MVF.
In other words, you can't say:
"So and so is this type of human."
When that was never mentioned.
That's baseless speculation.
You also cannot say, "this happened before the movie." Because that was never mentioned.
You can make certain assumptions, however: gravity appears to work. Men and women are in the movie played by real men and women, so they most likely have bawlz, cowks, baginers, and bewbz.
No, we omit all history that is not in the movie. Golden Rule of the MVF.
But the Gondor soldiers are shown as average sized men, ergo they are. But they are also never described as having a history, ergo they don't have one.
I'm cool with omitting feats and skills that are never mentioned, but to go so far as to dismiss their character's origins is ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with feats, traits, or abilities, just history.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So lemme get this straight: Dwarves are never mentioned as living longer than men, ergo in the movies they live exactly as long as men.
No, it's unknown and cannot be used to debate on in the MVF. In other words: null.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Men are never mentioned has having testes, ergo they don't.
Nope, covered that already. Also, he has no bearing on MVF debates, so it really doesn't matter.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The early Gondorians are never mentioned as Numenorians, ergo they aren't (regardless of just what a Numenorean is, it doesn't matter).
Correct.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Sauron is never described as immortal, ergo he's not (he just lives a ling time).
Maybe. That's debatable. We can say that he is immortal up to the point of the ring existing. That was made clear. However, being immortal has a false definition, to begin with. All matter will decay into fundamental components and the whole universe will homogenize in heat with maximum entropy. Maybe his spirit was immortal: does his spirit live on after the events of RotK?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The forging of Narsil is never described as having taken place, ergo it didn't, ergo, Narsil is eternal. Same can be said for Elrond, whose birth is never even hinted at.
But we DO know the Elrond and Co were immortal, but they could be killed.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But the Gondor soldiers are shown as average sized men, ergo they are. But they are also never described as having a history, ergo they don't have one.
Sort of. You kind of make a non sequitur statement.
They DO have a history, it's just not known for the movies.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm cool with omitting feats and skills that are never mentioned, but to go so far as to dismiss their character's origins is ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with feats, traits, or abilities, just history.
No, that's following the rules. There's a reason we have to do that: to avoid contradictions and baseless assumptions.