Yeah, I'm extremely late with this, but I'm a busy guy.
Originally posted by MarvelknightI love Steve Rogers. He's an excellent character. He has an iron will, superb fighting skills and a sound tactical mind. Nothing can be taken away from him, not at all. But it's not really so much that he relies on his endurance to win battles. The man has an weapon, made of metals that is stronger, harder, and more durable than Wolverine's entire body. Steve can Block and reflect. Use the shield to attack up close or from a far with surgical precision... But Steve doesn't have his shield in this fight.
Steve doesn't need his shield to be effective- and has beaten down the best of the best the MU has without it. Hell, there have been numerous cases where he was given a shield made out of steel or some other material (he's lost the "captain america" job before) and was STILL the best.
Some of the things you claim he does- especially attacking from afar with surgical precision- have nothing to do with the shield and everything to do with his skill with it.
It's not a crutch, not by a long shot. If you were to ask who was the better combatant- steve without his shield or Batman without his gadgets, it would be steve every time, no contest.
Batman has been shown lifting 1000 lbs. and can hold up weights a little over 1000 lbs.under duress. He's dented steel doors, bend steel, split trees at the base with back kicks, and catch arrows in mid flight without looking. Bruce can control his breathing to reduce panic, and hit with enough force to send a 240 lbs. grown man through a wall. Even though Batman doesn't jump as high, he's still leaps with such grace, surpassing even the fineness Chinese acrobats. And can run at least 30 mph.The man is at the peak physically as any human male could be naturally in every way. You say " his stamina advantage is massive". Yes, but it will still take Steve a long time to beat Bruce.
And steve can curl 500lbs with one arm and press well over 1100lbs in casual excercise. Not under duress. His foot speed feats are easily double what bruce's is- there are at least two separate feats that specifically put him in the 50-60mph range. I'll say it again- Rogers is NOT peak human by feats, and while Bruce may be as strong and fit as it is "naturally" possible to be, the SSS guarantees it is not possible for Batman to hit the levels steve has been shown to- as that level of performance is NOT naturally attainable.
And no, in fact I think I'm right about Batman being the better martial artist. Steve does not know every martial arts style on earth. Batman Knows and utilizes 127 martial arts styles.
There's a scan in the respect thread of steve vs. baron zemo where he specifically claimed to be adept at every known form of H2H combat when zemo was still "just a scientist"- and that would have been pretty early in cap's career.
You COULD claim he's lying here, or that it's "just hyperbole", but then you would have to dismiss steve's wins against marvel's top tier MA's like iron fist, black panther, daredevil, wolverine, batroc, lady deathstrike, etc...and even Taskmaster who DOES know every style that exists in the MU AND has predictive movement ability still has to work hard for a win. By feats, Rogers backs it up.
He's master offensive and defensive techniques, along with advance forms of mediation and pressure point strikes. Batman is an master martial artist. Every punch and kick is thrown with precision and accuracy, with superb technique and power. It' a known fact that Batman is all around more skilled than Steve.
it really, really isn't.
Batman can come up with more ways to overcome any situation than Steve can. Bruce has proven this. He's efficient in biology, chemistry, forensic science, and criminology. Batman's an inventor, Master detective, Ninja master, master escape artist, vehicles expert, master tactician, and the list gos on and on. You are really underestimating Batman here.
none of that really comes into play when talking pure h2h combat skills with no prep. no one is debating that Bruce is a better scientist and detective. We're talking sheer fighting skill and battle strategy, and in this case Batman has no edge vs. Steve.
Batman can operate at peak efficiency for at least an hour before showing any signs of fatigue. Even while enduring extreme pain, Batman can still function. Anyone thinking that Steve will just beat Batman with ease is out of their minds, in complete denial. [/B]
And how would he do against someone whose body is designed NOT to tire at peak efficiency, as Steve's is? Stack up the fact that rogers is most certainly stronger, is faster on his feet, and can literally "see faster than normal humans are capable of" re: his reflexes, and even IF they were dead even in Skill, Rogers still has the edge, and it's for the same reasons that he beats down Bronze Tiger here. Shield or no
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I pick Shiva is extremely skilled. Even Batman has fallen to Croc more or less, yet Shiva treated him like a child.
Not an option. If Shadow Dragon's fight with Superman is accurate then he can go melee with Superman, meaning he has FTL reflexes. So he jobbed to Shiva or Superman jobbed to him, because Shiva is not as fast as Superman.
Croc worked over Batman before going down recently but has also been folded like a lawn chair by Batman as well. Crocs abilities due fluctuate but Batman should never have had as much trouble with him as he did the last time they fought.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Not an option. If Shadow Dragon's fight with Superman is accurate then he can go melee with Superman, meaning he has FTL reflexes. So he jobbed to Shiva or Superman jobbed to him, because Shiva is not as fast as Superman.Croc worked over Batman before going down recently [b]but
has also been folded like a lawn chair by Batman as well. Crocs abilities due fluctuate but Batman should never have had as much trouble with him as he did the last time they fought. [/B]
Bruce is in his 40's now. Maybe age is started to catch up just a little.
[QUOTE=13187064]Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Not an option. If Shadow Dragon's fight with Superman is accurate then he can go melee with Superman, meaning he has FTL reflexes. So he jobbed to Shiva or Superman jobbed to him, because Shiva is not as fast as Superman.
Croc worked over Batman before going down recently [b]but has also been folded like a lawn chair by Batman as well. Crocs abilities due fluctuate but Batman should never have had as much trouble with him as he did the last time they fought. [/B][/QUOTE
That's MA comics for you. People usually job to them. So, yeah.